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TEPaul

Has studying golf architecture.....
« on: May 27, 2010, 10:13:14 PM »
......helped you play better golf?

Has it helped you to score better?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 10:16:51 PM »
......helped you play better golf?

Has it helped you to score better?

Not in the slightest, that's all physics.

But I do enjoy golf a lot more.

Does that make sense?

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 10:21:37 PM »
100% NO!

Now I just walk around the golf course looking at features, green complexes, talking about architectural intentions, etc.

I used to never talk, head down, and play for the best score possible.   ZZZzzzzz!

Now I would rather chat about the architecture, to hell with the score, which I don't keep anyway....what is  GHIN again?

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 10:22:29 PM »
Tom,
Yep...  I try to find the speed slots now and aim for them.  I also have a better idea of how to handle angles.

And, like Bill, it significantly increases enjoyment.

JC Jones

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 10:28:44 PM »
I am playing, perhaps, the worst golf I have played since I was first learning the game.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Andy Troeger

Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 10:33:00 PM »
I am playing, perhaps, the worst golf I have played since I was first learning the game.

Same here. Some of that is less practice and less concentration on score. I haven't played a competitive tournament in 10 years, but I played 200 between the ages of 8-18. I think I was a better high school golf coach than I ever was a player.

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 10:34:09 PM »
NO - I don't really care about the score anymore (unless there is money on the line).  Now, I just want to find and play the most "interesting" shots on each course.  For example, I hit it in the Strath just so that I could have a shot at a great up and down (and I did get up and down, though I did not fare as well in the Road bunker).

Peter Pallotta

Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 10:43:02 PM »
Tom:

Yes, I think it has -- but only on good architecture, where the subtleties and deceptions and established principles now make sense and seem clear to me. On bad architecture - and I played a doozy this weekend - I find I can rarely commit to the shot the course is asking for, eg a mid iron off the tee on a Par 5, and so something fundamental inside me short circuits. Good architects know the game, and know how to create/find/route the neccesary and challenging and fun 'obstacles', and I think even my limited talents are thus somehow called forth. Bad architects either don't understand the game and/or can't find a way to create the appropriate obstacles -- and how is talent (an 'unconscious' quality) supposed to interact with that?
Peter
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 01:21:54 PM by PPallotta »

Kirk Gill

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 10:58:33 PM »
Getting more into the subject of GCA coincided with having a family, so I play a LOT less than I used to. It's kind of a vicarous replacement, in some ways, for actually playing. Thus, I can't say it's helped my game, score-wise. But I will say, I think more about the course when I'm playing, and anything that takes my mind off my swing, etc., seems to help me play a bit better. And like Bill, I do enjoy myself more.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

John Moore II

Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 11:12:59 PM »
I think I notice more, and if I studied a course as I was playing, it might help. Or if I got a yardage book before hand and studied through it, perhaps. But I don't do that. So, no, it hasn't really helped.

David Stamm

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM »
Not in the slightest, and it doesn't matter to me. I enjoy the game alot more though, and that's okay with this knucklehead.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 11:57:23 PM »
Yes and no.  It's opened my eyes to a lot of things regarding golf courses; specifically, how and why they look as they do or play as they do.  Prior, I just played, and didn't give a lot of thought as to a course being favorable or unfavorable, in my mind.  For example, now, I look more at angles on tee shots, features, etc, greens, bunkers.  I definitely look at trees and their use (or overuse).  

It's also led to some interesting questions and conversations, for example, a conversation I had with Stephen Kay a few weeks back about the design and construction of Mccullough's and the how and why the course is as it is.  Or, Kelly Blake Moran at Tom Paul's this past year about the role of golf course architect vs. land planner/site planner at the Lederach course and community.  

You also notice more things-for example, the course I played in college, Rutgers GC, has a lot of trees inside bunker lines.  I wouldn't have cared about that in 1997.  Didn't know the difference, only "I'm hitting out of a bunker and around/over a tree".  You notice why greens you've played just don't fit the hole, or seem awkward-then you find out the hole's been redesigned and used to play from the other direction.  Same course, you notice how one of the greens has some really interesting contour (#18) and the rest are more or less pancakes.  You look at landforms around the course and think "what if this went this way", or, for example, on Seaview Pines last week, you notice the outlines of bunkers in the rough or bunker edges that have shrunk.  Same thing with greens--Kyle pointed that out to me at BSP-Red about 5 years ago, placement of sprinkler heads relative to the green surface.  I caught myself a few times looking at greens last Saturday and the placement of sprinkler heads, thinking "what if..."  Or, looking at the bunkering on some of the Flynn holes and comparing/contrasting it to better-preserved examples of his work.  You appreciate Glen Ridge's use of angles (Willie Park, Jr) and 'death by papercuts' approach a heck of a lot more, relative to getting your ass kicked at BSP-BK.
I worked at Forsgate in 2001. Had no idea about anything then, just that the bunkers were deep.  

You research courses, find out about the architect, and compare/contrast features while playing to other examples of the architect's work.    

You appreciate the history of Cobb's Creek a lot more, for its place in golf, even if you don't think (as I do) the course is all that great.

Studying courses like, say, Hidden Creek with 'large' features, relative to courses with 'smaller' features and the effect on one's play, and how to prepare for rounds on both types of courses.  Or being able to articulate to a group of GAP Volunteers at dinner why Lederach is so good and clever and it's them that are missing the fun of playing the course.  There's another example-you learn to bounce it into #2 there, when flag is right or front, even though it's uphill and would seem to call for an aerial shot.

Maybe it has made me a better player; or, better educated to play the course as it was designed to be played.  Or, at least attempt to. Looking at placement of bunkers or green contours or green position and attempting to hit to x position or y position. 

Although, I do recall asking Harris and Bausch once, "what if we didn't worry about the architecture, and just went out and played, and didn't try to overthink stuff?"
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 12:03:29 AM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Ken Moum

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 12:04:21 AM »
Not that i can tell, but it has made me much less tolerant of the crappy golf courses that make up the majority of what i get to play.

It has also made me realize that a whole lot of folks building golf courses don't have a clue.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Brian Phillips

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 03:55:22 AM »
No, I have become a lot worse than I was....and I just bore the hell out of my playing partners as well now.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Michael Taylor

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 04:09:28 AM »
I would have to go against the grain here and say yes. To an extent, I now understand some of the architects 'tricks' and I can then realise that, and not fall into it. Also you learn more abouts playing the angles, and understand risk and reward even moreso.

Has anyone else had an experience similar to mine?

Pup

Scott Warren

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2010, 04:19:09 AM »
I would say yes.

When Andrew Summerell got me consciously thinking about architecture I was off, from memory, 12 (having blown out from 9 when I changed clubs) and now I am playing to 7 pretty reliably.

James Boon

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2010, 04:37:16 AM »
Sometimes it helps me play better golf as I have a better appreciation of strategy etc.

Sometimes it makes me play worse as for some stupid reason I get frustrated when I see poor design or could see a better design opportunity that has been missed, and I get distracted and suddenly whats that... double bogey!

Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2010, 07:13:55 AM »
I was likely going to improve my golf around the time I started studying GCA.
Even if I spent all that time studying Italian.
I was playing lots then, getting the odd lesson, and improvement was almost certain.

Having said that, my scores improved, and my handicap came down.
My decisions on course improved when GCA thoughts were more frequent.

I began to select different clubs from the tee.
I recognised danger more readily & also approached so as to make the next putt/shot easier.
Needless to say, this didn't always work...

MM
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 05:53:07 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2010, 08:52:09 AM »
I would say yes.

When Andrew Summerell got me consciously thinking about architecture I was off, from memory, 12 (having blown out from 9 when I changed clubs) and now I am playing to 7 pretty reliably.
Just wait until you get married and have kids...   ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Steve Lang

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2010, 09:06:22 AM »
 8) .. play better golf?  

Yes when I care about managing my game and the course features.. its certainly nicer to play on higher gca merit courses to figure them out..  i had a very inspired round at TOC back in 1996 after significant studying, and most recently on a return to Black Mesa, and some very good results at Bandon two weeks ago on about half the holes..

Some yes & no on score alone, more prone now to be mentally impacted by general challenges offered.. beyond competition,.. does the course inspire you to hit different shots or do you force your game on a course?   At times, as the saying goes:" i never met a sucker pin that i didn't like to try.."

So there's the opportunity to play better golf and score better, but its not necessary, its still a ball & stick game that can be very much fun if you let it.

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Topp

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2010, 09:50:49 AM »
No.

I do not think the strategic options of a golf hole are very difficult to decipher in most instances.  Playing well is far more about the ability to execute.

Dan Boerger

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2010, 09:53:12 AM »
Nope.

But do enjoy the game more for many of the reasons already given here.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 01:15:31 PM »
Yes.

I started reading up on golf course architecture and became obsessed with it all at a fairly early age. Early on I couldn't have told you about a Redan or a Biarritz (and I certainly wasn't playing on any such holes). But what a knowledge of GCA gets you thinking about is how to play golf. Where can you miss that's safe. What kind of a shot do you want into the green. In high school, I had much less pure game than most of the kids I was up against, but I help my own with a lot of them surprisingly well. I couldn't hit it 280 off the tee then, and I got a lot of strange looks from guys who could bomb their driver past me anyway and then they'd watch me pull 3 wood or 2 iron off the tee. But I knew I could hit those clubs to a safe area and still have an adequate approach.

Of course, at the end of the day, it comes down to execution. You don't have to be a great player to derive benefit from GCA knowledge in your game, but you probably need to be relatively consistent, able to hit it in the general area you want more often than not.

I have a buddy I play a lot of golf with who is about a 17 HCP. I used to try to suggest different ideas of strategy to him. I don't anymore. He's no more likely to successfully execute a safe lay up shot than a heroic go for it all moment. If he tries to play safe and short of something, he may just end up 20 yards off line and short, vs 20 yards offline and pin high. So strategy doesn't mean much to him. But I think it has always made me a slightly better player than my actual skill can full account for.

Carl Rogers

Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2010, 08:36:07 PM »
Before I discovered Riverfront, by extreme accident, living 10 minutes away, I had nothing to study.

I am an Architect (buildings) and I have been looking at them since age 18.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Has studying golf architecture.....
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2010, 08:39:34 PM »
Carl...

I have some friends who are architects (buildings) and I have been wanting to try to pique their interest in golf course architecture.  Can you think of any correlations that I might be able to build off of to get their juices flowing regarding golf course architecture?  And/or any books that might be a nice segue from one to the other?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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