[Warren Lehr]

Matt,
What I was saying is that a group could be encouraged continuously by the Starter about pace of play and still spend 20 minutes on the first hole while the Starter is covering the bases with the next group.  Oftentimes our Starter will radio the Marshal about a group taking a long time on #1, but no course has the staff to place someone in #1 fairway all day.  The damage is done and pace is affected when they putt out at #1 green.  We are not purposely allowing 20 minutes for our first hole.  What I'm saying is that by the time a group finishes #1, it's almost too late.

By the way, I whiffed on the A. MacKenzie reference.  An easy opener is definitely not part of any of his 13 principles of course architecture.  I believe he talks about the issue at another place in the book.  

[kilfara]

Tim - sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that the renumbering of the holes at Ballybunion had anything to do with the pace of play. I think (if I remember Mr. Wind's article on the subject correctly) it was done because nobody liked the finish of back-to-back dullish par 5s.

Cheers,
Darren

[Matt_Ward]

Warren:

Appreciate your position but have to offer this. When you say courses don't have the staff I have to wonder what about the high green fee many upscale courses charge? Where does that $$ go? Can't they afford to add personnel where necessary -- esepcially in places on the course where play may slow? I not talking about having marshalls at every hole but key places and management should know where these spots are.

Many courses pay great lip service about speed of play, but lack the energy and follow-through to really deal with it. The feeling is get the customer to shell out big bucks to play and let them wander around for however long it takes -- this mantra is the usual scene you get at many of the facilities in Vegas and Maricopa County in AZ, to name just two locales. The casualities are the other players who are held hostage to the groups that are oblivious to what they do and the clueless management that runs those facilities.

Warren -- if people take 20 minutes to play one hole how about meeting them at the 2nd tee and reading the riot act! If they can't pick up the pace have them step aside and get the next group through. If they still persist at dragging their behinds how about suggesting playing from a more forward tee to maximize their enjoyment. If that doesn't happen and they still are doing a dog and pony show on the course then it's time to refund the $$ and wish them well. When facilities fail to do these things they are simply saying to the bulk of the other players we are not really concerned about your enjoyment.

I'm not suggesting that people be thrown off the course for a tiny infraction, but I'm talking about an absolute refusal from most management personnel / ownership groups to have in place a systematic process that is implemented and followed to deal with these circumstances no matter the handicap level, age or gender of the people involved.

Good business sense should not permit the transgressions of the few to dominate the enjoyment of the many.

I almost fall down and start laughing when I see clubs purchase all the "speed up play" signs because they have as much credibility / meaning as the former 55 mph signs you saw on the Interstates years ago.

[corey miller]

My home course Sleepy Hollow has what I consider a really good opening-closing combo.

The first hole is a 420 yard dogleg right from an elevated tee to a very generous landing area with terrain that will feed the ball from right to left.  Have still not detected a predominant wind direction here but the second shot can be  anywhere from 180-120.  Perfect driving hole to get a little confidence, feels awful good to hit a ball from a highly elevated tee on the first hole.  the relatively easy tee shot is followed by a fairly difficult slightly downhill second to a tightly bunkered dished green that is trouble if short-sided.

The eighteenth hole is playing back up the hill that slopes sharply left to right where it is imperative to be on the left side of the fairway for an easier second.  This hole is 405 and plays about 440.  The left side of the approach and the green are benched into the hill with a miss right real trouble.  In short two good shots are needed so it gets your attention.  The green has a large false front and can is troublesome if above the hole.  It finishes in front of a 1880 Stanford white clubhouse.  

In short a perfect par-4 opener and a perfect par-4 closer.  The funny thing is that when Tillinghast designed the holes to play the other way around.  Many, myself included would probably not be so enthusiastic about these holes if they still played that way.  I guess it does matter where the holes fall.

[Matt_Ward]

Corey M:

Good point about Sleepy Hollow -- Since you are on the subject of Westchester County I would also highlight the 1st at Quaker Ridge as a good starting hole. Good par-5 that gives plenty of options and enough to stretch the muscles of the body and mind.

My vote for one of the worst 1st holes on the public side has to be the starting one at Mount Airy Lodge in Mt. Pocono, PA.
Long par-5 hole completely uphill for 2/3's of the length and to top matters off a hidden water hazard for golfers on their second or third shots if they don't hit it that far.

Complicating this is the possibility that carts must sometimes stay on the paths and the results are obvious -- grueling pain!

A good starting hole can feature challenging items but clearly it must be designed to assist with the movement of play -- particularly location of cart paths. Again, management must not sit back and allow the course to become gridlock central after only a few groups have teed off.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

The 1st hole at Mt. Airy Lodge might actually be not only the worst starting hole in golf, but possibly the worst hole in golf.  

I scratch my head thinking of another contender.

It plays straight up what functions as a ski slope in the winter to a blind water hazard a the top of the hill where your second shot would land.  Yes, you can lay back, for a COMPLETELY blind third of about 200 yards from a steeply uphill lie.

Even more humourously, you can also go right, as there is a fairway of about 6 yards wide circling the pond on that side.  Miss further right and you tumble down a steep ravine.  

There have to be some worse holes out there somewhere, but I can't think of any from the 625 courses I've played.

[Warren Lehr]

Matt,
Good points on your last post.  I agree 100%.  I'll let you read our Player Assistant policy sometime.  It's almost exactly as you've laid out for 1st Encouragement to catch up, 2nd Warning to comply because we see no progress after another hole or two, 3rd Suggestion to switch tees or move forward to the proper position, and 4th Ultimatum which includes either skipping ahead to the proper hole or a refund.  However, destination and resort courses almost have to be a little more lenient due to the high number of first time players and vacationers.  Many are happy to spend 5 hours on a beautiful course and feel that is what they've paid for, so it can be tough to keep them moving at a faster pace even if you're willing to "read them the riot act" which we are.

I also agree with you that many courses offer only lip service in this area.  I can assure that is not the case at Paa-Ko Ridge.  You can ask my staff, but we still have some tough pace of play days due to the challenge of the course and the mix of players we draw.  Anything architecture can do to help is always an aid as long as it doesn't compromise the quality of the design.

Finally, you're right that some courses do charge enough to place more marshals in various "slow spots" around the course.  We certainly know where ours are, but we don't charge the green fee to support that type of labor cost and our location is just remote enough to limit the number of volunteers we can draw.  We could go into quite a bit of detail about the expenses/revenue picture of profitability, but that is not the purpose of this discussion.  Let me just say that I came from a course with $20 green fees and a 5.5 million dollar debt service and we turned a profit on 37,000 rounds, so I do understand what an effecient operation looks like.  I also know that if you've got an extra bag of money laying around, it would be very rare that I would suggest you invest it in a golf course. :-/

You're right on target with many of your ideas and I shudder at the thought of collecting a green fee and letting them wander around and fend for themselves for 5 or 6 hours.

Best Regards

[Matt_Ward]

Warren:

My comments were general and certainly do not apply to Paa Ko which does have a solid pace of play program. And for those who have never been there I strongly recommend going to Paa Ko Ridge -- marvelous Ken Dye design and one of this country's best bargains without question.

Warren, I know far too many hot spot golf locales which sit on their collective duffs. Heck, I've been to more than a few of these over-staffed operations and there are more young assistants milling around the pro shop in their Cutter & Bucks -- it looks like a high-pad fashion show!

The best are those young wannabe Tiger types with hi-tech head phones communicating to someone but actually doing nothing.

Any course that abdicates its responsibility to keep play moving in under 5 hours (minus weather related issues) is just not interested in the enjoyment of the many. I would also urge clubs to adequately orientate their staff on how to approach the public in getting them to realize what's at stake. Some facilities have ex-Marine types who simply "bark" and there are others who have the "mouse" types or lack any real backbone. The issue of how the 1st hole is designed can be as varied as the land permits -- oversight by the facility's management should always be vigilant no matter whether the course is private, public or resort oriented.

[RJ_Daley]

For what it is worth, I favor the short to mid length par 4 opener, followed by a short par 5 to string out the play.  But the key is absolutely no OB to a side of first or second hole.  Lateral hazard water is marginally OK on second hole, but first needs to present little or no reason to hunt for a ball, or hit provisionals or worse, go back to tee if provisional was not thought of by the entry level golfer.  In public facilities, I think it is wise to have the practice range a part of the package for the green fee in that a courtesy small bucket of 20 balls should be given.  And, at least an adjunct putting green near the first tee for those waiting to tee off to get into the feel of the greens.  The first hole need not be a wimp however.  I think it should have wide fairways but a very focused preferred LZ.  Tee balls not placed well should find themselves with dicey un-level lies.  Use of diagonal ridges through the fairway are good here at the opening fairways.  The second shot should face not too severe bunkers (depth and placement wise) or diverting bounce mounds to collection areas guarding or surrounding the green if appraoached from these less than ideal places in the fairway.  I believe the green should be available with a short to mid iron, (9-7I), and the green should be large and undulating.  The challenge should be the putt, though not a green of endless putting.  I am in the Ross camp with the handshake and welcoming opening holes.  They should be interesting, strategic, but offer brisk flow from the start.

[A_Clay_Man]

I must disagree with the use of Spyglass #1 as an optimal hole.  And Darren if you think the second and third shots are no brainers than you're better than most pros I've seen play the hole. Certain features are perfect,  but in reality, the severity of the greensite makes for some very slow going. If you don't believe me ask Helen Alfredson. I have seen it take almost 45 mins for some groups to finish that hole. It only felt like an hour.

I don't think the severity of a hole matters. I think it's a conseous decsion, for management,to either stress pace of play or not. If no one mentions their policy to the customer it deemphasizes it and you can bet on a slooow rnd.

[Tim_Weiman]

Adam Clayman:

Anyone taking 45 minutes to play #1 at Spyglass - or any other course - should be asked to leave and given a refund on their green fees.

Honestly, I haven't played the course in about ten years.  If things are really as bad as you say, I won't play the course ever again.

Please tell me it isn't true!

[JohnH]

Contrary to some I'm sure, I feel the first hole should be somewhat easy.  There would be nothing I would hate more than to have to walk off the first hole with a double or worse, and feel like I have to recover the rest of the way.  The first hole should give the golfer a sense of things to come.  Aren't first impressions important?

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