[Dan Moore]

Playing with some private club members recently I mentioned my upcoming visit to Lost Dunes for the Midwest Mashie.  All of them told me I was going to love the course.  One of them, upon hearing that Tom Doak was going to be there, said I should ask him why he made the 4th green so crazy.  

After seeing the hole I could see why he asked.  At the Mashie I think the 4th was the most discussed hole.  Having played it only once I think it is a superb hole with a variety of options for how to play it for all types of players.  The one aspect of the hole that surprised me the most was not the wild green, but the use of rough instead of short fairway cut between the large waste bunker and the bunkers closer to the green.   This seemed out of character, but upon reflection makes perfect sense.  

Here is a closer look at the hole, a relatively short par 5 which we played at 525 yards from the Black/Members tee.  

Tee is set in a chute of trees.  Bunkers down the right side direct you to the left hand side of the fairway.  A little farther left a small pot like bunker (you can see it better in the next photo) with some nasty whiskers awaits the really long hitter.



The fun continues with the 2nd shot.  Multiple options are presented with hole position a big factor in deciding where to play the 2nd shot.  Saturday's pin was located on the shelf at the back left hand side of the green which could be best attacked from the right hand side of the hole.  The large waste bunker defines the landing zone.  Choices include going for the green and challenging two large bunkers close to the green, a lay-up right short of the waste bunker giving a longer shot directly at the flag from the short grass, a longer club to the left side of the fairway avoiding the bunkers but presenting a harder pitch to the hole location or a lay-up into the rough between the waste bunker and the bunkers short of the green.  



And a different view of the lay-up options and the various angles in play as seen from the dune behind the green.  Also note the rough between the waste bunker and the bunkers closer to the green.  The rough is an added hazard for those attacking the green in two but also a deterent from taking the best line to attack the back left pin which would leave a longer pitch from the long stuff where distance control would be more difficult.



View of the 4th green from the 5th tee showing the "Wild Thing" in all its undulating glory.  Great hole which could make any golfers heart sing if not blinded by frustration.  

[SL_Solow]

I am sorry I missed the event.  I would like to reemphasize the critical importance of the 2nd shot on this hole.  The diagonal nature of the cross hazard when coupled with the severity of the green places an uncommon importance on the placement of the second shot.  This is in contrast to many par 5s where the demands on the drive and the 3rd shot are significant and the 2nd is forgettable absent the ability to take an heroic risk in trying to reach the green.  The severity of the green adds significantly to the importance of the angle of approach and thus fits quite well into the overall strategy.  It is as severe a modern green as I have seen.  I learn something about the hole almost every time I play it.

[PCCraig]

Dan-

Great pictures and a well done short write up on the 4th hole.

If you had played on Sunday you would of seen the hole from the back left tee, which really changes the tee shot as it points you directly at the bunkers on the right. So unless you can really sling hook a driver around the tree line, the play is probably a 3-wood off the tee IMO as those bunkers can leave some awkward lies.

I do have to disagree with you regarding the ideal lay up shot placement. I thought the best way to attack that back left pin was from essentially the far left point where the waste bunker meets the fairway (as seen in your second picture). From there it's about a 90-100 yard shot to the pin, and while you have to hit up and over what looks like a pin on top of a mound, there is about 15-20ft of green long of the pin, which leaves a somewhat simple putt. I would say the lay up (and a 200+ 2nd shot) is alot harder from the right side of the fairway to that particular pin as the player's ball has to either land on that back shelf, or he can run it up the front and hope for a few lucky bounces and rolls.

I would say that if that pin is in the back two or three shelves (like it was on Saturday and Sunday) it's worth laying up if your second shot is anymore than a mid iron. However, if the pin is located in the front of the green there is little reason to not go for it as the up and down is a lot easier, said my caddy on Saturday afternoon "Oh yeah, pin in the front means birdie's all day."

I will probably sound like a recording saying this again as I told this to many people while playing this past weekend, but what I love the most about the greens at Lost Dunes is that while the undulations are extreme, the areas around the pinable locations (10-15-20ft in diamater) are actually pretty level...rarely do you ever have a 4 foot slider putt at Lost Dunes if you get your ball somewhat close. However, if you are not hitting the ball very well and are forced to get up and down, the slopes and elevations on the greens can beat most players up...including when missing the 4th green when going for it in two and trying to get up and down for a 4.

[Jim Franklin]

I loved the hole the one time I played it. I hit a fantastic second shot to set up an eagle putt and walked away with a par. I did not know the green was that wild when we teed off and after hitting my approach on, I realized a layup may have been more prudent. A course's defense starts at the green and that is a good one.

[Dan Moore]

Pat,  if you removed all the bunkers and the long grass would you still say that is the ideal location from which to attack the back left pin with a 3rd shot? 

Shelly, thanks for pointing out the diagonal nature of the cross hazard; very significant to the calculation.   

[Terry Lavin]

I am sorry I missed the event.  I would like to reemphasize the critical importance of the 2nd shot on this hole.  The diagonal nature of the cross hazard when coupled with the severity of the green places an uncommon importance on the placement of the second shot.  This is in contrast to many par 5s where the demands on the drive and the 3rd shot are significant and the 2nd is forgettable absent the ability to take an heroic risk in trying to reach the green.  The severity of the green adds significantly to the importance of the angle of approach and thus fits quite well into the overall strategy.  It is as severe a modern green as I have seen.  I learn something about the hole almost every time I play it.

Excellent analysis that summarizes why this is such a genius bit of golf architecture.  The key to this green and the key to many of the greens at Lost Dunes is knowing where to miss.  The risk/reward factor can get a bit dicey from time to time if you try to make a heroic shot, but you can play this hole conservatively and have a good roll at a birdie.  I try to stay left on the second shot and have a straight chip to the green that can bounce up and hopefully roll into the proper part of the green and hope to avoid a mischievous hillock along the way.  Great fun.

[Tim Nugent]

Luckily, the elevated nature of this green allows the golfer to ascertain what section of the green is pinned.  This is critical because I believe that where the pin is located will (or should) dictate what you do with your second shot. Hence there is no one correct way to play the hole. If the pin is front or middle, it is fully accessable to a long second shot from just about anywhere your drive lands but you definately want to be on the left if you draw as the green favors a fade.  Playing too far up the left for a layup makes the 3rd more apt to kick right and down the slopes unless you have pinpoint accuracy with you wedges.  Pat called it correctly on te back shelf pin - better to come in from the left to take those slopes out of play.  Anything on the right or short right is very dicey as the green works away from you and the long Bluegrass is a bear and a flier is the likely outcome.
I would hate to see this green in the middle of summer.  Any quicker than t was for us might make it unstopable from back-to-front as Ken Dye and myself got to witness Pat Craig putt the "Doak" line from back to middle on Sunday after his partner got one of those afore-mentioned fliers from the front right
One of Tom's best lines was when he said to the owner "let me build this green and no one will compalin about the others" or something to that effect.  I lept thinking of Mackenzie's quote about 'if a hole(course) doesn't ellicit contraversy, then we must of done something wrong'.

[PCCraig]

Tim-

That's about as fun of a putt as I can remember. I'm glad my partner was a little strong on his chip

I thought the green speeds this past weekend were perfect, any faster (esp. the rumored summer "13" on the stimp) would make that pin and many others unplayable IMO.

[Tim Nugent]

Pat, and even though you hit the line andspeed perfect, you (Rob) were still left with some meat on that bone.

This green highlights why we architects have problems putting in highly contoured greens.  The quest for a stimp number can ruin the intent of the green but no one will ever tell the super 'it's too fast'  just like no one will ever tell Porsche "it's too fast'.  They will just carp about the contours (read Architect) when we all know that it's stupid to produce 13 on a green like that.

I wish we would have had the smarts to ask the super what they were rolling.  I think no one did because they were just right and the fact that they rolled TRUE made all the difference when picking a line on greens where 'if you're off a little, you're off alot".

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

The best defense I ever heard of a difficult green contour was from Bill Coore.  One of the first times I spent time with him was out at Kapalua, where he was reworking the second green after the Tour players had all struggled with it in the first tournament on the new course.  It's a reverse Redan hole, and if they missed it to the left, almost none of the Tour players could get a shot to stay close to the hole because the green was so tilted ... they all went 10-15 feet by.

So, the Tour had asked Bill to take some tilt out of the green, and he was complying.  I asked him if he really thought it was necessary.  His response was that he understood the criticism, but to him, the funny thing was that if he'd put a lake over there to the left of the green, with a two-shot penalty for being there, nobody would have complained it was unfair.  They only complained it was unfair if it was all grass and it was still nearly impossible to make PAR from the same spot.

[Tim Nugent]

Tom, funny how the Tour never asked anyone to take some of the r-to-l slope off #10 at Riviiara.  And no one can get it close from the right.  But if that was a newer course without the history, you think the Pros would keep quite about that one?
If the architect gives a golfer an oppotunity to screw up and he does, naturally he'll blame the architect - we live in a Victum socieity. "it's not my fault i screwed up - he made me!"

Bill designs a hole to penalize anyone who hit it where they shouldn't and when they do "it's his fault"

[Ken Fry]

From the first time I played Lost Dunes, I fell in love with the greens, especially the fourth.  I enjoy the challenge of having to be creative with your putter.  Gravity can be your friend and foe all in the same putt!!

Ken

[Eric Smith]

Wild thing...I think I love ya.  I have never seen the hole in person, but the photos of the tee shot certainly show a hole begging for my tee shot and the length says "come on in" with the second.

But the green, my God, that is where the party's at. 

Dare I ask, any 4 putts at the Mashie?  5??

[Carl Nichols]

Dare I ask, any 4 putts at the Mashie?  5??

On Saturday, on the par 5 8th hole, I hit a bad third shot from about 90 yards and ended up front right when the pin was middle-back left.  I hit my first putt way too hard and past the hole, off the green, down the slope and just into the rough.  Stewing, I decided to putt again and think I got down in three from there, though I'm not sure about that.  Does that count?   

[Eric Smith]

Dare I ask, any 4 putts at the Mashie?  5??

On Saturday, on the par 5 8th hole, I hit a bad third shot from about 90 yards and ended up front right when the pin was middle-back left.  I hit my first putt way too hard and past the hole, off the green, down the slope and just into the rough.  Stewing, I decided to putt again and think I got down in three from there, though I'm not sure about that.  Does that count?   

How fast was the rough stimping?

[jonathan_becker]

Eric,

Funny you should ask about the rough.  It was maybe 3 inches tops and probably closer to 2.5 inches, but it was a definite challenge.  That bluegrass was extemenly dense and super tight.  Even shorter irons would grab and pull or squirt the ball offline.

Sorry Dan, as I'm getting a little off track.  Back to the topic at hand.

[Carl Nichols]

Dare I ask, any 4 putts at the Mashie?  5??

On Saturday, on the par 5 8th hole, I hit a bad third shot from about 90 yards and ended up front right when the pin was middle-back left.  I hit my first putt way too hard and past the hole, off the green, down the slope and just into the rough.  Stewing, I decided to putt again and think I got down in three from there, though I'm not sure about that.  Does that count?   

How fast was the rough stimping?

not fast enough -- i left my first effort short.   

[Mark Smolens]

The very thing that makes Lost Dunes so great, imo, is the way the greens take you out of your comfort zone. For me, it's even more for chipping and pitching than it is for putting (probably because on a good round I'll hit 7 or 8 greens?). That long grass, with the ball sinking down to the bottom, is very hard to judge. I don't know how many times I was just off the damn green, and still ended up with a 15 or 20 foot putt because I misjudged a pitch or chip. On the other hand, at Warren on Sunday afternoon I was able to get up and down multiple times, and those greens could hardly be considered flat or featureless.

[Tom_Doak]

Dare I ask, any 4 putts at the Mashie?  5??

Well, it was match play ... so the only way you are going to see a five-putt is if the third one wouldn't decide the hole, and your opponent(s) is (are) in a really stingy mood.

[Chris Flamion]

On Sunday I bladed my approach into the back right bunker(okay blade slice).  Even with all that contour on the green the fact that I knew I had a lot of room to play with it long provided a lot of confidence to go ahead and take a full swing at it.  After only 2 plays,and bad ones at that, I have no idea where would be the ideal place to approach from for someone who hits it as short as I do.

[George Freeman]

What a great golf hole.  The more I play it (and think about it), the more I realize just how good and fun it is.

A draw is favored off the tee (especially from the furthest back tee), but there is plenty of room out to the right to accommodate all shot shapes (except my 50 yard push/slice Sunday morning; sorry Bill).  If you're down wind and really pop a drive, you can have well under 200 yards into this green; but that's where the fun begins.  What I love is that the appropriate way(s) to play the hole are 100% dependent on that day's hole location; you better be paying attention when you're up on 2 tee.  Here is what I think I know:

- If the pin is on the back left top tier, there is one place you REALLY don't want to be, and that is inside 30-40ish yards down the left side of the fairway, short left of the green.  That is b/c getting the ball to stop on that upper tier from inside a full shot range (and therefore full spin), has to be nearly impossible, unless you have immense amounts of skill.  9 times out of 10 I think you'll end up on one of the lower tiers and at that point, you're happy with a three putt.  To get in that spot you either went for the green in two and bailed out/mishit left (perhaps to avoid the bunker/waste area short right, or b/c that big open piece of fairway just looks safe) or not paying attention to the pin position, not using your head, and laying up too far down the left side.

- One of the greatest things about this hole is, if you're going to lay up and the pin is top/back left, where do you place your second?  Due to the diagonal nature of the waste area (as Shelly mentioned), the degree of difficulty due to distance vs. angle work conversely to one another.  As you walk the fairway along the waste bunker, your angle into the top tier is the best the further you are from the hole (i.e. further right), but this also means it is more difficult due to the distance of the shot.  As you continue walking, you're progressively getting closer to the hole, however with each step, your angle of attack is getting worse and worse (the tiers of the green stop working for you and start working against you), so that by the time you near the end of the waste area "peninsula," you're no more than 70-90 yards from the green (maybe closer), but the difficulty of your angle is incrementally more difficult than when you were 170 yards from the hole.  Trying to find the optimal combination of angle and distance to fit your game must be one of the great pleasures of being a Lost Dunes member.

* Dan's second to last picture depicts this very well (albeit from behind the green).

- As told by Tom and executed by Pat Craig, there is a way to putt from the top back tier, out away from the hole, catch a small shoot, and have it move back horizontally and stay on the middle tier, without running all the way to the front the green.  If you tried to take a direct route to the hole, even just by placing a ball at the apex of the crest with your hand, the ball would tumble to the front of the green and possibly off and onto the fringe.

And all that is for one of MANY pin placements on that green.  Now I need to think about those and the strategies for each...

[Jon Heise]

I thought it was a pretty easy hole.  Crank one out there 290, laser a 3w right at the stick.  I was thinking "3" from the tee box, but had to settle for a ho-hum two putt bird...  Lots of pretty grass and bunkers though.

[jonathan_becker]

I thought it was a pretty easy hole.  Crank one out there 290, laser a 3w right at the stick.  I was thinking "3" from the tee box, but had to settle for a ho-hum two putt bird...  Lots of pretty grass and bunkers though.

Haha....as Jon's partner for the first day, I can attest to the above statements.   

[Carl Nichols]

What a great golf hole.  The more I play it (and think about it), the more I realize just how good and fun it is.

A draw is favored off the tee (especially from the furthest back tee), but there is plenty of room out to the right to accommodate all shot shapes (except my 50 yard push/slice Sunday morning; sorry Bill).  If you're down wind and really pop a drive, you can have well under 200 yards into this green; but that's where the fun begins.  What I love is that the appropriate way(s) to play the hole are 100% dependent on that day's hole location; you better be paying attention when you're up on 2 tee.  Here is what I think I know:

- If the pin is on the back left top tier, there is one place you REALLY don't want to be, and that is inside 30-40ish yards down the left side of the fairway, short left of the green.  That is b/c getting the ball to stop on that upper tier from inside a full shot range (and therefore full spin), has to be nearly impossible, unless you have immense amounts of skill.  9 times out of 10 I think you'll end up on one of the lower tiers and at that point, you're happy with a three putt.  To get in that spot you either went for the green in two and bailed out/mishit left (perhaps to avoid the bunker/waste area short right, or b/c that big open piece of fairway just looks safe) or not paying attention to the pin position, not using your head, and laying up too far down the left side.

- One of the greatest things about this hole is, if you're going to lay up and the pin is top/back left, where do you place your second?  Due to the diagonal nature of the waste area (as Shelly mentioned), the degree of difficulty due to distance vs. angle work conversely to one another.  As you walk the fairway along the waste bunker, your angle into the top tier is the best the further you are from the hole (i.e. further right), but this also means it is more difficult due to the distance of the shot.  As you continue walking, you're progressively getting closer to the hole, however with each step, your angle of attack is getting worse and worse (the tiers of the green stop working for you and start working against you), so that by the time you near the end of the waste area "peninsula," you're no more than 70-90 yards from the green (maybe closer), but the difficulty of your angle is incrementally more difficult than when you were 170 yards from the hole.  Trying to find the optimal combination of angle and distance to fit your game must be one of the great pleasures of being a Lost Dunes member.

* Dan's second to last picture depicts this very well (albeit from behind the green).

- As told by Tom and executed by Pat Craig, there is a way to putt from the top back tier, out away from the hole, catch a small shoot, and have it move back horizontally and stay on the middle tier, without running all the way to the front the green.  If you tried to take a direct route to the hole, even just by placing a ball at the apex of the crest with your hand, the ball would tumble to the front of the green and possibly off and onto the fringe.

And all that is for one of MANY pin placements on that green.  Now I need to think about those and the strategies for each...

George,
I agree with everything you said, except for one thing/question -- isn't the top tier actually larger than it appears from the fairway or lower part of the green, and doesn't it have a small backstop of sorts?  On Saturday, Brad Tufts hit his 2nd shot 20-25 feet right of that pin, but since it was on the right level he had a relatively flat putt.  

[PCCraig]

- One of the greatest things about this hole is, if you're going to lay up and the pin is top/back left, where do you place your second?  Due to the diagonal nature of the waste area (as Shelly mentioned), the degree of difficulty due to distance vs. angle work conversely to one another.  As you walk the fairway along the waste bunker, your angle into the top tier is the best the further you are from the hole (i.e. further right), but this also means it is more difficult due to the distance of the shot.  As you continue walking, you're progressively getting closer to the hole, however with each step, your angle of attack is getting worse and worse (the tiers of the green stop working for you and start working against you), so that by the time you near the end of the waste area "peninsula," you're no more than 70-90 yards from the green (maybe closer), but the difficulty of your angle is incrementally more difficult than when you were 170 yards from the hole.  Trying to find the optimal combination of angle and distance to fit your game must be one of the great pleasures of being a Lost Dunes member.

* Dan's second to last picture depicts this very well (albeit from behind the green).

- As told by Tom and executed by Pat Craig, there is a way to putt from the top back tier, out away from the hole, catch a small shoot, and have it move back horizontally and stay on the middle tier, without running all the way to the front the green.  If you tried to take a direct route to the hole, even just by placing a ball at the apex of the crest with your hand, the ball would tumble to the front of the green and possibly off and onto the fringe.

And all that is for one of MANY pin placements on that green.  Now I need to think about those and the strategies for each...

George-

I don't see what makes the approach to the green from the right side any easier. There are a whole lot of humps and bumps short of the pin that you have to fly with a longer club, whereas from a shorter distance on the left side you can fly the ball directly to the back shelf. As Carl notes there is a lot more room than you back there than you can see from the fairway and the back fringe acts as a backstop.

However interesting the choices are to the back pin on 4, again if the pin is located in the front section of the green it's almost a different hole.

For as much talk as the 4th green gets, I would say the 5th and 11th green deserve their own threads as well! The 5th is super interesting as the only way to get close to a front pin is to either hit a very high tee ball that can sit on the front to back sloping green, or to bump a long iron left reverse redan style. And while the pin on 4 was fun, the pin on 11 was nuts as it was on the high right hand side, guarded by the huge bunker in front, but with the deceptively helpful slope back right of the green.

I actually had to aim my "Doak" putt on 4 on Sunday somewhat towards the hole, but essentially having to die it on top of the mound, then having the slope bring it down and left, then back down and hard right. I hit it about as well as I could and it was still 5ft. Fun stuff!!!

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