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Richard Hetzel

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Brad Tufts, Carl Nichols and myself played The Warren Course at Notre Dame prior to the Midwest Mashie this past Saturday morning. It is an excellent golf course, but maybe a tad bit too easy for Brad! Here are a few pictures from our Saturday morning round....if near South Bend, do give it a go....


















« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 04:43:14 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Ron Farris

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 06:07:15 PM »
Honestly, this looks like a course I could enjoy playing 5 days a week.  Especially if it didn't have anyone else on it as depicted in the pictures.  Thanks for the picture post. 

PThomas

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 06:09:02 PM »
Honestly, this looks like a course I could enjoy playing 5 days a week.  Especially if it didn't have anyone else on it as depicted in the pictures.  Thanks for the picture post. 


and only $25 to walk after 3:00 PM!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

PCCraig

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 06:14:02 PM »
The Warren Course really is a fantastic value...even more so at $25 after 1 on Sundays. Considering the property isn't nearly as good as alot of the land C&C usually have to work. They created interest from the green back to the tee. A really great low-key place to play golf.

As great as $25 sounds...our almost 5 hour round wasn't so great. Lots of cheater lines flying around in front of us with Open wannabes getting in practice rounds for today's USGA qualifier.

Playing there yesterday does make me ask myself why I don't make the 90 min drive more often from Chicago for 36 hole days. Of course with a stop at Redamaks on the way home...  :)
H.P.S.

Mark Smolens

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 09:25:33 AM »
I certainly agree with the sentiment about the course Pat, but you have a pretty wide-ranging view of "on the way" home. . .

PCCraig

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 09:30:39 AM »
I certainly agree with the sentiment about the course Pat, but you have a pretty wide-ranging view of "on the way" home. . .

Wide ranging meaning it's west of South Bend on the East to West drive home. :)

Hard to find a better meal after 36 holes than a Redamak's burger with chili-cheese fries!
H.P.S.

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 09:44:17 AM »
Did they build a new tee on 17?  I'm guessing that is the hole in the picture looking back at two tee boxes.  If so, that one on the left of the photo is hideous looking. Why did they add it? 

PCCraig

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 09:51:09 AM »
Did they build a new tee on 17?  I'm guessing that is the hole in the picture looking back at two tee boxes.  If so, that one on the left of the photo is hideous looking. Why did they add it? 

Not sure when they added it but it was there last year when I played it as well. It's a long long hole from back there, 600+ yards.
H.P.S.

Tim Nugent

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 10:08:06 AM »
I missed my previous chance to play the Warren, so I  jumped at this one.  The course was good but not great.  Plenty of fairway to play in and the courses best features - the low profile, in the ground bunkers, are made to standout even more with blinding white silica sand.  The greens are on the small side which limited the amount of internal contour tho some had more than others (#16 - an elevated short 4).  Too bad we played the day before the USGA qualifier, the greens didn't seem as if they had been cut they were so slow.  The starter said we were the last group out @3 because the maintenance crew would be right behind us since they couldn't get out before the first groups on Monday. and they would be double-cutting and rolling them.

THe course is a tale of two environments where the south is open and flat and the north is more wooded and has more terrain.  The routing takes the golfer to the north for the finishing 3 holes for each nine which gives the course a nice change of pace and scenery (although the 17th takes you out to the interstate and the road noise intrudes on the ambiance.  All the greens fit nicely with the land (except the 8th, which fought the downsloping grade with a back-to-front  green that was magnified by the wooded back-drop)  and I thought the par 3 9th was a bit too close to the entrance road left and clubhouse behind, especially when there was ample room to shift it right. I was surprised by the babbling brook to nowhere (See 7th picture with stone cobbles in foreground and water/pond edged with pretty yellow Iris) (artificial re-cycling water feature) in front of the short par 5 10th) especially since it flowed the wrong way (#18 fairway sat a good 30' below the right of #10 and has a real creek cutting across the beginning of the fairway and up the left side of this really good finishing hole (last picture), flowing left-to-right, opposite of #10's who's  creek flowed away from the drop-off to the left, across #10 ending at the cobbles in Pic #7).

And can anyone tell me where those  alpine mounds off the right of #17 tee came from? (3rd to the last picture) They seemed out of character with the rest of the course. Maybe they would have made more sense had we played from the tips but we were the "old guy group" and 6,700 was all we could handle. ;D

A special thanks goes out to my playing partners for putting up with my tired game.
Coasting is a downhill process

Chris_Clouser

Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 12:01:51 PM »
Pat,

They must have added them in the last two years then.  They weren't there when I was there last.  I don't like them.  But that is probably one of the few places they could add distance on the course.  Maybe on 8 as well.  The Warren Course is a good layout and a great value at that twilight rate.

Ken Fry

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 12:45:52 PM »
OK guys, I'll try to hit the highlights of your comments with some background.

A few years after the course was opened, there was a desire to add more length because of the distances the college men were hitting the ball (if you've seen it up close, you know what I mean).  Also, Notre Dame would like to host a National NCAA tournament so the feeling was to get the course over 7000 yards.

A new back tee was added to hole 3, expanded teeing ground on 4, new back tees on 6, 7, 8, 11, 15, 17 and 18.  In the original routing, holes 16 and 17 went further toward the northeast corner of the property.  The owners of the land refused to sell so the routing was adjusted.  Hole 16 became shorter and the original tees for hole 17 are shown on the right of the third photo from the bottom.  North of the original tees for 17 was a dumping ground.  From that area up to the Toll Road, excess dirt, sod from the stadium and other items were dumped.  To my understanding, the mounds just off the tee were a by product of this work.  When the new back 17th tee was proposed, a valley was cut through those mounds and a bunker was added just prior to the fairway.  Before the back tee was added, most of the college players could get to the green with a driver and mid iron.  The long hitters were getting home with a driver and 7-9 iron.  The new tee added 85 yards.

The creek running through the property is Juday Creek.  When the project began, the creek was essentially void of any wildlife.  It was stagnant and too warm.  The DNR was quite involved in the project and the creek had to be addressed.  To the left of the bridge on 16, a new creek bed was built moving slightly north and into the trees.  A few turns were added to the creek that cuts across hole 16 to improve flow.  The old creek bed is what runs down the left side of 18.  When the creek emerges from the trees and cuts across 18, it rejoins the original creek bed.  To the right of the bridge on 18, the creek again was split and rerouted right into the trees where it can be found behind the 10th green.  The original creek bed cut across the 10th fairway.  Both of the old creek beds on 10 and 18 are recirculating creeks.  The original design of 10 had the old creek bed as a large waste bunker.  It was then changed to the existing creek about a month prior to the Big East Championship tournament in 2000.  From the DNR's perspective, the creek project was a huge success.  Steelhead now spawn up the creek from the St. Joe river and can be seen from the bridges on 16 and 18.

Hope this answers some of the questions!

Ken

Mark Smolens

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 02:38:11 PM »
Ken's advice to keep the ball out of the rough was, of course, spot on. Fortunately I guess I was tired enough that I could no longer overswing and hit a large majority of the fairways. I had difficulty advancing the ball from the rough with anything more than a lofted iron (wedge or 9). All in all, however, Warren was a great value and well worth another visit, even if they don't have any purple shirts in the pro shop!

Richard Hetzel

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 05:06:49 PM »
The rough was tough here, in fact, it was tough to even find your ball in it even though at first glance it didn't look at that deep..

Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Tim Nugent

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 05:26:31 PM »
So Ken, are you saying the #10 green/creek was NOT part of C&C's original redo? 
PS, that was me who passed on the rough advice to Mark S.  We old guys need all the help we can get.
We were also curious why only a portion of the boundary fence behind #3 had a screen on it.
Coasting is a downhill process

Ken Fry

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 10:32:57 PM »
So Ken, are you saying the #10 green/creek was NOT part of C&C's original redo? 
PS, that was me who passed on the rough advice to Mark S.  We old guys need all the help we can get.
We were also curious why only a portion of the boundary fence behind #3 had a screen on it.

Tim,

The change on 10 from having the dry creek bed filled with sand making a waste bunker to the recirculating creek was done prior to the course opening for play.  A handful of us got to play the course the previous fall after a great grow in and played the 10th with the bunker in place.

The concern became what would deter a player from going for the green?  Remember all questions were regarding the college players.  The hole doesn't play particularly long especially if a drive catches the down slope in the fairway.  The handful of times we played the hole, I had an 8 iron second shot which grew into a joke nickname Bill Coore gave me, "Mr. Eight Iron."  Bill 's comment about it was "so what if it makes for an easy birdie or par?  Any score higher will be a big let down."  He also felt the next three holes were quite hard and provided a nice contrast.  He bought into making the change and it was done.  After all this time, a little more experience and a lot more maturity, I believe Bill Coore was correct on all accounts and the previous hole with the bunker would look infinitely better.  Jeff Bradley had it cut into the slopes nicely.  The hole would probably play a little easier, but it would have looked much better.

As far as the boundary fence behind #3 goes, let's call that a "neighbor issue."  On one side, folks back in that neighborhood weren't happy about the course fence going up because it blocked the deer from walking through the property.  Their solution?  They cut a huge hole in the fence.  It was repaired, they'd do it again.  Finally that stopped.  Also, a port-a-potty usually sits behind the pump house just off the tee.  Neighbors complained because they could see the big blue closet.  Enter the big green screen.

Hey, it's life in a University environment.  Anyone who has worked with or for any school knows what that's all about.  There are quite a few unique challenges!

Ken

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 10:57:21 PM »
Ken:

Has Bill Coore been involved in all of the changes you described?

I know there was some friction there right after the course opened, when the fairway grass had its problems.  I haven't heard him talk about the course in quite a while, but I am sure he would like to stay involved if they asked him.

PCCraig

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 11:14:02 PM »
Ken-

Can you explain how C&C came about to being chosen to design the Warren Course? It seems like a totally different type of project than what they usually are involved in. Where any other GCA's in consideration?

I was curious to see what scores qualified yesterday, but it looks like the USGA hasn't posted them yet.  :-\
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 11:25:53 PM »
Pat:

As at The Rawls Course for Texas Tech, I believe it was one donor who funded the entire project, and he picked the golf course architect(s).

Ken Fry

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 07:52:13 AM »
Ken:

Has Bill Coore been involved in all of the changes you described?

I know there was some friction there right after the course opened, when the fairway grass had its problems.  I haven't heard him talk about the course in quite a while, but I am sure he would like to stay involved if they asked him.

Tom,

Yes Bill has been involved in all the changes made to the course.  Along with lengthening some holes, the center fairway bunkers on #1 and #7 were also added to make the kids think twice about hitting driver off the tee.  Bill has a good relationship with the current staff there now and I think the course has reached a condition level he's pleased with.  Current supt. Matt Cielen has done a fantastic job with the place.

As you know very well, a university can make a course project a bit of a challenge.

Ken

Ken Fry

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 07:55:14 AM »
Ken-

Can you explain how C&C came about to being chosen to design the Warren Course? It seems like a totally different type of project than what they usually are involved in. Where any other GCA's in consideration?


Pat,

Like Tom mentioned, the primary donor for the project, Bill Warren, is a 1956 Notre Dame grad from Tulsa.  He's a member at Southern Hills and met Bill and Ben when they did work there.  There were a couple other well known architects up for consideration from what I've heard but don't know for sure.  In the end, Mr. Warren wanted Coore and Crenshaw.

Ken

PCCraig

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 08:33:14 AM »
Ken-

Can you explain how C&C came about to being chosen to design the Warren Course? It seems like a totally different type of project than what they usually are involved in. Where any other GCA's in consideration?


Pat,

Like Tom mentioned, the primary donor for the project, Bill Warren, is a 1956 Notre Dame grad from Tulsa.  He's a member at Southern Hills and met Bill and Ben when they did work there.  There were a couple other well known architects up for consideration from what I've heard but don't know for sure.  In the end, Mr. Warren wanted Coore and Crenshaw.

Ken

Thanks for the response Ken.

I suppose I should of assumed that with a nice multi-million dollar donation Mr. Warren had a little input on the final product  ;)

It sounds like despite all the changes over the years to lenghten the golf course for the top college players, the golf course is still pretty much the same for most players. Regardless it turned out to be a great facility and a place to play golf.

We were also surprised at the turn when someone in our group ordered a candy bar and Bud and was rung up for $4...our player did a double take and said "that's it?!"...to which the nice lady said "you guys must be from Chicago...."  :)
H.P.S.

George Freeman

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 05:46:58 PM »
I also joined the group at the Warren Course after the Mashie and thoroughly enjoyed my round.

Thought/opinions:

- This has to be one of the BEST values in all of golf.  We paid $25 to walk the course on a Sunday afternoon.  I can't even get a hot dog and a gatorade at the turn in Chicago for under $25...

- As has been mentioned, the course covers two pretty different pieces of terrain: the west side of the course is on more open, flat ground and the east side of the course has a more wooded/hilly feel.  Honestly, I can't decide which set of holes I like better.  The routing was done so that both nines touch both sides of the property, which I thought was very smart.  I really liked the green complexes on the flatter holes.  Most seemed to be slightly raised with subtle contouring (especially after three rounds at Lost Dunes!).  I liked how most greens were set at an angle to the fairway, creating a premium on placement.  I was impressed with the amount of interest C&C were able to inject into the holes on the less dramatic side of the property.  Holes 1, 4, 5, 11, and 13 were all some of my favorites (and all were on the flatter land).

- I liked the little "scrape" bunkers that littered the front nine.  I thought they worked well aesthetically and also as a deterrent, causing you to bail out away from the preferred lines.  They were small enough to make you think "if I hit it over there, what really are my chances of landing in one," but if you did, their small size created awkward lies and stances.

- I liked the width off the tee

- I'm sure glad they ran out of room in the corner of the property where 16 green and 17 tee are, b/c I thought #16 was one of the best holes on the course.  There were quite a few ways to tackle that short par 4.

- I liked the use of diagonal hazards on (at least) three of the holes.  Whenever you can force the golfer to start using his brain you know you're doing something right.

- The par 3 11th was one of my favorite holes on the course, primarily b/c of how disorienting and deceiving it looks from the tee.  At 220-245, it looks like a huge Biarritz green, but once you start walking towards it, you realize the two flanking bunkers on each side of the hole are actually a good 30 yards short of the green, and not front right and left of the green as it appears on the tee box.  Additionally, the green is huge with fun pin locations.  Great hole.


The course won't knock your socks off the but people of South Bend are very lucky to have such an affordable avenue to play golf on a well designed, thought provoking golf course. 
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

JLahrman

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2015, 07:09:43 PM »
Tom,

Yes Bill has been involved in all the changes made to the course.  Along with lengthening some holes, the center fairway bunkers on #1 and #7 were also added to make the kids think twice about hitting driver off the tee.  Bill has a good relationship with the current staff there now and I think the course has reached a condition level he's pleased with.  Current supt. Matt Cielen has done a fantastic job with the place.

As you know very well, a university can make a course project a bit of a challenge.

Ken

Bringing this topic back up...I had the pleasure to play the Warren Course earlier this week. It's up to a whopping $40 now, but there was nobody there on Wednesday when I played. I walked 27 holes in 4.5 hours and only went through one group.

I enjoyed the course, definitely felt like a Coore & Crenshaw work.

I only took one picture. This is from the fairway on #7, which I snapped because I love the fairway running right up to the bunkers.



But then I read this thread and noticed the talk of a center line bunker on #7. I see that in the 2011 image on Google Earth as well.

It's not there now. Instead there is a line of bunkers up the right hand side, as seen in my picture.

Anyone know why the change was made? Does this take the hole back to how it was originally designed? Or is this the third iteration of the hole?

Anyway, lots of good holes on fairly indifferent land. I hope to return again in future years...

Ken Fry

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2015, 09:54:01 PM »
The 7th hole did go through another renovation but with reason.

The original hole had a large maple tree that protected shots trying to hug the left side forcing players to hit to the right.  A center line bunker was added to give the long hitting college kids something to think about.  The maple tree had one too many damaging storms and had to come down leaving the left side exposed.  The decision was made to move the fairway to the left and incorporate the large drop off to the left of the fairway creating an almost "cape" style tee shot.  For reference and to demonstrate how much the fairway was moved left, the first bunker in your photo is the old center line bunker.  Now the area right of the bunkers is maintained as rough.

Bill Coore made the changes and even Jeff Bradley made an appearance back in South Bend to cut the new bunkers.  I really like the new orientation of the hole and believe it ties in wonderfully to one of my favorite green sites on the course.

Ken

JLahrman

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Re: The Warren Course at Notre Dame - Coore and Crenshaw PICS
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2015, 10:08:53 PM »
Thanks Ken. That certainly is a change in orientation to the hole; the ravine on the left certainly is part of the hole now, and I do see there is room to the right where the fairway used to be. I did really like this approach shot and the green.

Might be interesting to have kept the fairway on the right as well. That would give a safer option on the drive but a longer second and a tougher angle with that bunker on the right side of the green.

I really enjoyed the course; 5-7 was a really good stretch, as was 11-15. If I lived in the area I would spend a good amount of time there, particularly in the summer. I really expected it to be busier.