[Jim Colton]

The sequel to my not-so-ballyhooed original design Ballysnoop, behold Ballyneo Golf Club.  Fire away.  I won't go hole-by-hole, but I'll respond w/ pictures of specific holes as the discussion warrants.

Objectives/Vision:
•   Fun, walking-only private course
•   Firm-and-fast conditions, sand-based soils, fescues throughout
•   Assumed treeless site with ever-present but no prevailing winds
•   Although not shown in sketchup, fluid tee boxes with no formal tee markers. Groups free to mix it up.
•   Attempted to limit green-to-tee distances and to keep earthmoving to a minimum.

Out   Par   Black   Green   Red
1 4 400 363 295
2 5 596 570 466
3 3 200 173 153
4 4 484 465 423
5 4 372 335 256
6 4 426 379 325
7 4 380 354 320
8 3 189 169 131
9 5 563 513 443
Tot 36 3610 3321 2812
In   Par   Black   Green   Red
10 4 437 365 323
11 4 361 341 294
12 4 397 368 316
13 3 181 163 143
14 4 442 372 340
15 3 210 189 145
16 5 584 532 443
17 4 437 408 334
18 4 455 415 326
Tot   35 3504 3153 2664
All   71 7114 6474 5476

First, the routing.

[Charlie Goerges]

Jim, you are a consistent performer and if you do this well in the next contest you might have to consider quitting your day job!

My favorite hole of yours (and incidentially Andy Gray also found virtually the same one) is #7 A nice par 4 with the green on a promontory which allows the player to run the ball on. The further right you drive, the less the front bunkers impede your second shot. Good stuff.

[Jim Colton]

Jim, you are a consistent performer and if you do this well in the next contest you might have to consider quitting your day job!

My favorite hole of yours (and incidentially Andy Gray also found virtually the same one) is #7 A nice par 4 with the green on a promontory which allows the player to run the ball on. The further right you drive, the less the front bunkers impede your second shot. Good stuff.

Charlie, thanks.  A consistently slightly above average performer, but consistent nonetheless.  Always the bridesmaid...

I like the 7th hole a lot.  I mention in the other thread that I tried to build a hole that tempted you to go for the green but didn't automatically reward length.  The play is probably to lay up to the top of the hill.  Otherwise, you might be left with a downhill lie to a shallow green.  The far left tee is probably best since you can see the green.  I actually like Andy's execution better with more fairway surrounding the hill and the bunkers banked into the side of the hill.

[Eric Smith]

Looks real to me.  Would love to play it.

[Alex Miller]

One thing I really like in your routing is that the loops of 9 are not completely isolated from one another. The crossover between 5&6 and 15&16 is great. It ensures to some degrees that your course will not have a different feel between nines, something I don't like.

I also like the 12th. It's as close to a bunkerless green as I've seen in the submissions and a cool alps hole.

[Jim Colton]

Thanks Alex.  Here is the 12th.  I was happy when I found this greensite, it just looked like it needed a green on top of it between the two surrounding peaks.  I had a better set of bunkers left but sketchup crashed on me and I couldn't quite recreate it.

[Bill_McBride]

The skyline greens are very reminiscent of Stone Eagle.   Does Ballyneal have a few as well?  (Can't wait to see, i love skyline greens!  )

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jim - After a quick scroll through it seems like there are a number of holes that have bunkers behind greens, including both greens near the clubhouse. Just curious, but why?.. I spent the last 2 days renovating 4 greenside bunkers, 1 of them was behind the green, so I have it on the mind.

[Jim Colton]

Jim - After a quick scroll through it seems like there are a number of holes that have bunkers behind greens, including both greens near the clubhouse. Just curious, but why?.. I spent the last 2 days renovating 4 greenside bunkers, 1 of them was behind the green, so I have it on the mind.

Jaeger,

I spent a lot of time 'walking' around the site in Sketchup trying to find natural spots for bunkers, simply because it looked like there should be a bunker there, not necessarily for strategic purposes.  Given the dunescape look that I was assuming, I figured this was appropriate.  That's definitely was what I was going for on 9, although I don't know if I executed it well in that instance.

  Jim

9th Hole

[Rob Rigg]

Jim,

How many elevated, level and sub-level greens did you end up creating on your course?

It looks really interesting - I need to spend more time on it - definitely looks fun.

The reason I ask about the elevated greens is because if this is to have a real links vibe, too many (a la Tetherow) can cause serious frustration. Also, I love greens that call for downhill approaches where the run on is a true option - don't see a ton of those around but I thought one or two might fit this site.

[Jim Colton]

Rob,

I don't have the skill level to be able to find and build interesting downhill greensites. I have two: 4 & 10. I don't have a bunch of dramatically uphill holes either: 12, 14, 17. 4 and 17 are defintely connector holes.

[Ben Sims]

Jim,

Man I just love #9.  The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes.  It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th. 

The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well. 

Tell us about your different iterations of #6.

[JC Jones]

You kids with your technology these days.

[Jim Colton]

Jim,

Man I just love #9.  The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes.  It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th.  

The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well.  

Tell us about your different iterations of #6.

Ben,

As you know I toyed with some different configurations with #6 after I submitted my entry.  I had gotten some feedback on my initial design from a well-known poster here so didn't want to tweak my entry after that, but I fooled around with it in sketchup.  I moved the green back and to the left into the natural punchbowl and opened up the left landing area to provide two routes to the course, a psuedo-Bottle Hole.  I wish I had come up with this the first time.  Of course, I did get bashed for having fairways that were too wide, so maybe I'd finish even further back in the pack.  What do you guys think?


Before:


After:

[Ed Oden]

Jim, I like the "after" design on #6 a lot.  But I think it would be even better if you moved the furthest right of the short greenside bunkers to the right so it is maybe 20 yards short of the green on a centerline for those approaching from the right.  Approximately how long to carry the bunkers down the right side?  By the way, your design is one of my favorites.  Well done.

Ed

[Andy Gray]

Jim,

You got bashed for having fairways too wide? Mine averaged around 60 yds (some up to 90 yds). That seems perplexing to me, as I thought width was the religion here...

As for your 7th hole (and my 15th), I tried to make an option to drive the green, with a big drive to the right as there is a huge kick off the backside of the hill side. The carry would be around 270 yds. But essentially they are the same hole.

Andy

[Garland Bayley]

If they are criticizing for fairways being too wide, then I don't think they understand the size of the property. No one said there was any limit on budget that would mean narrow fairways to control costs. Seems to me if you build them wide, it is much easier to narrow them later. All you have to do is grow grass.

Personally, Nick's design looked like a preying mantis on that big property. I had a bad feeling for it from the get go.

EDIT: I think Bogey hit the nail on the head with his post on the other thread.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, I'm sorry I have not been following this contest closer. But, could you tell us who when and where you got bashed?

Oh yeah, almost forget...Thanx ahead of time and what's the course's slope and rating from the tips?

[Ben Sims]

Jim,

Man I just love #9.  The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes.  It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th.  

The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well.  

Tell us about your different iterations of #6.

Ben,

As you know I toyed with some different configurations with #6 after I submitted my entry.  I had gotten some feedback on my initial design from a well-known poster here so didn't want to tweak my entry after that, but I fooled around with it in sketchup.  I moved the green back and to the left into the natural punchbowl and opened up the left landing area to provide two routes to the course, a psuedo-Bottle Hole.  I wish I had come up with this the first time.  Of course, I did get bashed for having fairways that were too wide, so maybe I'd finish even further back in the pack.  What do you guys think?


Before:


After:

Again, my love affair with The Bottle hole is well documented.   Which is why I asked.  I saw your bunker pattern and thought "bottle" immediatly.  Though I don't think it's realistic to get over the hazards, so maybe it's not a true bottle.

What I think you did with the "after" version is basically change the strategy for the bomber.  The first iteration, the bomber was more likely to try and go up the right side through the chute.  In the second iteration, the long hitter wants to go left possibly, for a shorter shot in with less risk to going long.  The short hitter is now the guy going towards the right.   

[Nick Campanelli]

Personally, Nick's design looked like a preying mantis on that big property. I had a bad feeling for it from the get go.

Praying mantis?  Really?  When did the routing turn into a bug for you?

(Probably worth explaining in the other thread.  I dont want to take away from Jim's critique here)

  

[Nick Campanelli]

Jim, I had a chance to check out both Daryn and your routings last night.  Also impressive on your part.  A few question for him also apply to you....

Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?    

What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?

Like everyone else, I found the 7th to be my favorite within your routing.  The 12th hole was a close second.  

Was the 9th hole your original closing hole?  My original 18th, now the 9th, was situated at the northern portion of the site like yours, except it runs in the opposite direction.  Something in that area caught my eye from the start...it seems it as though it were the same for you?

Holes 1-4 seem somewhat remote compared to the rest of the routing...what was your thinking behind these four?  Did you feel a need to use the entire site?

[Jim Colton]

Jim, I had a chance to check out both Daryn and your routings last night.  Also impressive on your part.  A few question for him also apply to you....

Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?    

What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?

Like everyone else, I found the 7th to be my favorite within your routing.  The 12th hole was a close second.  

Was the 9th hole your original closing hole?  My original 18th, now the 9th, was situated at the northern portion of the site like yours, except it runs in the opposite direction.  Something in that area caught my eye from the start...it seems it as though it were the same for you?

Holes 1-4 seem somewhat remote compared to the rest of the routing...what was your thinking behind these four?  Did you feel a need to use the entire site?

Nick,

I did find a few holes and work around them.  6/7, 16 I knew was going to be some sort of par 5 using that bend in the creek, although I couldn't quite get it right.  9 and 18 seemed to be good general areas for greensites with natural clubhouse site

I really like 3, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 18.  Weak holes are 4 & 17 which are my only two real connector holes and I wasn't able to make them very exciting.

I had 9 as a potential closing hole, but I didn't want to run due west with a closing hole.  I probably could've eliminated the switchover and figured out a way for it to be the other way around, but I'm fine with how it turned out.  I like tough 18th green as a finisher.

I wasn't worried about 1-4 being remote, just trying to find the best collection of 18 holes.  1 is a simple starting hole, but does the job.  I like 2 and especially 3.  I don't know how'd I do it any differently while still keeping the same the clubhouse spot intact.  I had my entry in real early, so I had some time to play around with possible changes.  Other than the possibly changing the angle / setting for 4-6 and 16, I couldn't come up with anything that was dramatically better.  The only change I would make would possibly introduce that bottle hole aspect to #6 and explore not less width but more width in certain places.  Just this morning I was thinking 10 would be cool if both the upper and lower fairways were part of one huge fairway with a couple bunkers banked into the hill.

[Garland Bayley]

I have 4 as you weakest and 7, 11, and 16 as your strongest.

[Alex Miller]

14 is my favorite. Love the show bunkers. Making me regret not putting any on my course. 

[Nick Campanelli]

Favorite:           
7 (reasons already mentioned)
11 (options)
12 (fun green complex)
18 (options off the tee)

Least Favorite: 
4 (straight forward) 
10 (right fairway seems too forced)
                     

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