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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quail Hollow
« on: April 29, 2010, 07:34:47 PM »
I wastched about an hour of the golf today and have the rest on DVR. How good did QH look today?!?! I thought that that course looked flawless-I loved the mowing patterns, the presentation and the boldness of the course. Golf Course Superintendent, Jeff Kent, has does a WONDERFUL job of manicuring QH to near flawless conditioning.
  Now for the the architecture-Really, how good is QH? It looks tremendous on TV and the pros seem to love it. In fact, the announcers said that officials at QH are talking with the PGA about bringing a PGA Championship to QH in 2017. Anyone who has played it, plese chime in...a
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 07:55:00 PM »
I was out there today and the conditions at Quail are absolutely perfect.  I have never seen the place in better shape.  The course is easily in the best condition it has ever been for the tournament.  If it doesn't rain, the course will get firmer and faster each day and will be a real challenge come Sunday.  There is no doubt that Mr. Harris has his sights set on a major or Ryder Cup.  In my opinion, Quail would be worthy of consideration for such an event.  Here is a thread from last year with my thoughts on the course... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39627.0/

Ed

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 07:59:20 PM »
I've heard (not sampled) that the conditions this spring are as good as they've ever been.  I also know that in previous years the greens were nearly unplayable during the summer because they stressed them out too much for the tourney.  I think they changed turf and/or maintenance practices because (again) I heard it was in great shape all of 2009.  

I watched some today and noticed now how tough the finishing three are but how easy some of the others are - #s 7 & 8 and 14 & 15.  It's pretty cool to not only have a breather hole but to have two in a row, each on the front and back.  Gives you a chance to get hot and get yours before the course gets his at the end.  

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 09:48:41 PM »
Phil on the greens: http://green-side.blogspot.com/2010/05/phil-takes-big-rip-at-quails-greens.html.

Architectural question: Should hitting the ball on the green always give you a putt at the hole? 

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 10:18:41 PM »
I haven't seen a minute of the tourney so was going to stay out of this, but.....


Architectural question: Should hitting the ball on the green always give you a putt at the hole? 

...NO..Phil is whiny(as are all, pros he just has the stature to open his mouth), being on a green is not good enough.  At there level they know where the hole is and what is needed to get right at it.  Hitting a "bad" shot that hits the green doesn't mean they get a free putt at birdie.

John Moore II

Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 10:52:42 PM »
Phil on the greens: http://green-side.blogspot.com/2010/05/phil-takes-big-rip-at-quails-greens.html.

Architectural question: Should hitting the ball on the green always give you a putt at the hole? 

Certainly it should not. Greens need to be made in such a way that you can hit a shot and not even have a prayer of getting near the hole in some cases. Certainly it would be pretty silly to have this be the case all the time, but one or two times per 18 is fine. And it doesn't even have to be odd shaped greens, it could be a huge contour in the green that makes putting towards the hole of getting a putt close a real challenge and near impossible.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 01:38:59 AM »
I have always felt that if your ball is on the green that you should beable to putt to possible pin placement. I am not sure how most people would take seeing a player taking a wedge to play a shot from the putting surface but I do no the greenkeepers would not be so 'chuffed' and that it would take a long time to recover. It seems to me that there is a reason that a player MUST drop if their ball is on a green not belonging to the hole they are playing.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 02:01:37 AM »
I always believed that IF I executed my shot well, and hit the green, I should have a putt at the hole.
I had no problem with having to hit a great putt to get it close (Royal Melbourne leaps to  mind).

I also always believed that if I DID NOT execute the shot well, just being on the green, could leave me needing to recover
with something creative  (wrong side of the donut on #6 at Riviera :o).  Kind of comes with hitting a bad shot!

Jason McNamara

Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2010, 08:37:47 AM »
I half expected Phil to use that spatula wedge of his on 18 green.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 09:45:42 AM »
I always believed that IF I executed my shot well, and hit the green, I should have a putt at the hole.
I had no problem with having to hit a great putt to get it close (Royal Melbourne leaps to  mind).

I also always believed that if I DID NOT execute the shot well, just being on the green, could leave me needing to recover
with something creative  (wrong side of the donut on #6 at Riviera :o).  Kind of comes with hitting a bad shot!

What's interesting, of course, is that Phil admitted that he did not execute his approach well: "But my mistake there was hitting it past the pin. I know that green is ridiculous. I never should have put myself in that position."  Not only that, but he still came back with a great two-putt.  I wonder how many others would have played the first putt the same way and come up with the great result that Phil did.  All of which begs the question, "Shouldn't Phil love greens like these that show off his superior skills?"

Ryan Farrow

Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 01:25:27 PM »
Hitting a green is hard enough, remember, not everyone who plays this course is on the tour!!!!!!!

In almost all cases you should have a putt to a reasonable hole location. If not, the green is probably too severe. At Oakmont we had the greens rolling in the 13 range. I don't remember any hole locations being unreachable from the the green. Sure, you can putt off the green but that was your own damn fault.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2010, 05:33:33 PM »
I for one love the architecture at Quail Hollow.  This isn't boring architecture, and QH's members should be proud.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2010, 11:01:31 PM »
Hitting a green is hard enough, remember, not everyone who plays this course is on the tour!!!!!!!

In almost all cases you should have a putt to a reasonable hole location. If not, the green is probably too severe. At Oakmont we had the greens rolling in the 13 range. I don't remember any hole locations being unreachable from the the green. Sure, you can putt off the green but that was your own damn fault.

Ryan, when those non-tour players play Quail the greens aren't stimping at 13.  Having played the course a number of times, I feel confident that Quail's putting surfaces are what most GCAers crave.  They are bold, challenging, full of interest and loads of fun.  Phil put his ball in the worst possible place on the 18th green for that particular pin position.  He messed up.  How is that any different than short siding yourself just off the green and having no chance to stop the ball close to the hole?  And bear in mind that he was still able to get his approach putt within a very reasonable distance of the hole.  How is that bad design?  The sad part about Phil's comments is that I suspect there is a good chance they will be heard and I wouldn't be surprised if changes are made to soften a couple of greens in response.  If that happens it will be just one more example of changing a course solely to accommodate the pros at the expense of the members.

Ed

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2010, 11:37:38 PM »
The powers that be are already listening... http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/05/02/1412370/quail-president-says-hell-gladly.html

It will be very disappointing if Phil's comments lead to more bland greens.

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 05:44:14 AM »
Presumably the discussion is about the pin position and not necesarily the green.

If the pin had been in another position could the green still have accommodated the putt.

I’ve always maintained if the first putt can be putted within 10 feet of the pin then one can still have a good chance of making a second putt.

Since when was a “one-putt” possibility mandatory ???

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 07:50:38 AM »
The pros love Firestone too, so I don't tend to put much stock in what they say.

The architecture at Quail Hollow looks solid but not particularly inspiring.  I like the look of the short four, number 14.  However, the course looks like it would be brutal for anyone over a three handicap.  There are several PGA Tour courses I would rather play instead of it.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 07:53:07 AM »
I can't believe it is like the 15th best course in North Carolina. Personally, I would put it at #3 in the state.
Mr Hurricane

Andy Troeger

Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 09:07:39 AM »
I can't believe it is like the 15th best course in North Carolina. Personally, I would put it at #3 in the state.

If you are referring to the GD list, it did move up significantly this cycle. It is currently #8. I'd definitely like to see it, the closing stretch looks very good with a couple birdie holes and the brutal finish. I like #18 much better than the similar tough finishers with a big pond.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 09:37:21 AM »
At least it moved up to #8, I guess my rating helped  ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 09:24:37 PM »
The pros love Firestone too, so I don't tend to put much stock in what they say.

The architecture at Quail Hollow looks solid but not particularly inspiring.  I like the look of the short four, number 14.  However, the course looks like it would be brutal for anyone over a three handicap.  There are several PGA Tour courses I would rather play instead of it.

JNC, don't be deceived by what you see in the tournament.  While I would never claim that Quail is an easy course, it is nowhere near the brute you would think if your only frame of reference is what you see on TV.  First of all, virtually no one plays the 7417 yard tournament tees.  The "normal" back tees are only 6830 yards and the member tees are 6345 yards.  Heck, that's shorter than my club here in town.  Second, the greens don't stimp at 13 any time other than during tournament week.  Comparing that week to typical conditions is apples and oranges.  Finally, while the course would no doubt benefit from some tree removal, the hole corridors are generally plenty wide enough (the notable exception being #12).  I view the trees as less of an issue than the narrow fairways, which tend to limit some of the potential strategic options.  For me, the perception of Quail as an unrelenting beast not suitable for daily member play is, in my opinion, a fiction.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that under normal conditions Quail is any tougher than Charlotte CC, which is generally considered (and rightfully so) a fantastic members course. 

One thing I particularly like about Quail is that it has more half par holes than just about any course I can think of.  Not one, but two drivable par 4s.  All four of the par 5s are reachable with two good shots.  And a bunch of long/tough par 3s and 4s.  The end result is a course of extremes which breeds excitement whether in a weekend foursome or for the best players in the world.

Ed

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2010, 09:56:34 PM »
The pros love Firestone too, so I don't tend to put much stock in what they say.

The architecture at Quail Hollow looks solid but not particularly inspiring.  I like the look of the short four, number 14.  However, the course looks like it would be brutal for anyone over a three handicap.  There are several PGA Tour courses I would rather play instead of it.

JNC, . . . Honestly, I'm not convinced that under normal conditions Quail is any tougher than Charlotte CC, which is generally considered (and rightfully so) a fantastic members course. 

One thing I particularly like about Quail is that it has more half par holes than just about any course I can think of.  Not one, but two drivable par 4s.  All four of the par 5s are reachable with two good shots.  And a bunch of long/tough par 3s and 4s.  The end result is a course of extremes which breeds excitement whether in a weekend foursome or for the best players in the world.

Ed

Charlotte CC hosts the USGA Women's Am this coming August 9 - 15. http://www.charlottecountryclub.org/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?GRP=13211&NS=USWA&APP=80&TESTPAGECFG=USWA&DN=USWAHOME Not sure about any TV coverage, but tickets for in-person are free.  For any of you who can make the trip, it should be worthwhile and you can see what Ed is talking about.  But until you've experienced both Quail and Charlotte first hand, I'd be on the take-his-word-for-it side.  (By way of full disclosure, I don't belong to either Quail or Charlotte and I do not believe Ed does either.) 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 11:25:49 PM »
I wastched about an hour of the golf today and have the rest on DVR. How good did QH look today?!?! I thought that that course looked flawless-I loved the mowing patterns, the presentation and the boldness of the course. Golf Course Superintendent, Jeff Kent, has does a WONDERFUL job of manicuring QH to near flawless conditioning.
  Now for the the architecture-Really, how good is QH? It looks tremendous on TV and the pros seem to love it. In fact, the announcers said that officials at QH are talking with the PGA about bringing a PGA Championship to QH in 2017. Anyone who has played it, plese chime in...a

I'm stunned after watching Quail Hollow that no one on this thread criticized the conditioning the way they do with Augusta(and all the evils it bestows on the rest of the golf world)-looked like exactly the same maintenance meld-right down to the pine needle tree beds
Is there a double standard?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2010, 12:12:19 AM »
Jeff, that's a fair question.  Of course, couldn't the same question be asked about pretty much every course that hosts a spring time tour event on overseeded grass?  It seems to me that ANGC is the poster child for double standards (both positively and negatively) on many fronts.  There are a lot of connections between ANGC and Quail, maintenance being only one of them.  However, one big difference in my opinion is that, unlike Augusta, Quail is a year round club.  So the maintenance meld seen leading up to the tournament should not be confused with the conditions encountered for most of the rest of the year.  There were some early struggles in transitioning between tournament conditions and non-tournament conditions.  But the club seems to have mastered the process in recent years.

Ed

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 12:44:17 AM »
Or, maybe just no one watches an event at Quail Hollow. Myself, I'd rather be golfing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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