[John Moore II]

Tom Doak-Do you think that courses are built in the ANGC mold because its what the average golfer will like? Certainly you and Mr. Coore build courses that might break from the traditional, however, how much of that is based on the target golf population of your clients? The only course I have played by either of you was Riverfront, and there, you built the course 4-10-4, with the traditional set-up of nines. Yet at Pacific Dunes and Rock Creek you broke from the 'standard.' How much of that was based on Riverfront being built to appeal to the daily fee public golfer and the other two being built to appeal to a smaller, more focused group of golfers? How much does that determine any design?

[Matthew Petersen]

Tom Doak-Do you think that courses are built in the ANGC mold because its what the average golfer will like? Certainly you and Mr. Coore build courses that might break from the traditional, however, how much of that is based on the target golf population of your clients? The only course I have played by either of you was Riverfront, and there, you built the course 4-10-4, with the traditional set-up of nines. Yet at Pacific Dunes and Rock Creek you broke from the 'standard.' How much of that was based on Riverfront being built to appeal to the daily fee public golfer and the other two being built to appeal to a smaller, more focused group of golfers? How much does that determine any design?

I suspect this is a huge issue.

I recall reading Forrest Richardson's book on routing a golf course in which he describes a course where he wanted a 6-7-5, but the developers refused because they wanted it to be a championship course and believed no one would take them seriously with 6 par 3s on the card.

So one par 3 was converted into a short par 4 that's an obvious weak point on the course. He writes that he regrets allowing that to happen even still.

As a note, I have played the course in question a number of times (Pointe Lookout Mountain in Phoenix) and a few years back they turned one par 5 into a long par 4 so the breakdown is now an even more conventional-looking 5-9-4.

[Tim Nugent]

Tapiola, the course I'm doing now in Espoo (Helsinki), Finland will only have 1 par 3 on the back and on par 5 - it's what fit and gave the best course.  As I string holes together, I'm not looking so much to par as I am to variety of shots. I would give up a short 5 for a long 4 if there were other similar shots on the 5 but not for the long 4.  I think modern designers like 3's because they have become one of the few places we can dictate the club selection.

[Jason Sills]

Nanea, front nine.

[Jason Connor]

Depending upon your definition of 'really good' Stanley Thompson's Sleepy Hollow just south of Cleveland has just one par-3 and one par-5 on the back nine.

[Kevin Pallier]

Ganton F9 = 5th
Carnoustie F9 = 8th

[Tom Yost]

Apache Stronghold has but a single par-3 on the front nine.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Interestingy, Pacific Dunes and Machrihanish only have two par fours on one nine, Are there any other really good courses that share this characteristic?

[Mark Pearce]

Interestingy, Pacific Dunes and The Old Course only have two par fours on one nine, Are there any other really good courses that share this characteristic?

?

The Old Course has 7 par 4s on each 9, if you mean the one at St Andrews.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Sorry Mark, I meant Machrihanish. I had The Old Course on the brain looking at another thread. Come to think of it, I always have The Old Course on the brain.

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