[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

NJ doesn't have a system of state courses like NY -- the only one I know of is in Monmouth County with Spring Meadow. Most of the taxpayer-owned layouts in NJ are county owned facilities.

Look forward to teeing it up.

[Ronald Montesano]

1.  No one has mentioned that part of the original deal back in the late 1990s included this rate structure.  It was ALWAYS known and put down in writing that NYS would keep rates at the original level for a set period of time, then have the freedom to raise them.  The time to play Bethpage Black for cheap has gone.  I imagine that the locals would love to have their cake (the course) and eat it (the boasting of two national championships) too, but they cannot.

2.  NYS courses for the most part are average to above average.  Long Island, with Ike Park and Bethpage, clearly wins out.  I live on an island on the other end of the state and we have a shit NYS course that is flat, monotonous, and not worth anyone's time, anyone with interest in layout, that is.

3.  The prices you mentioned are fair prices in this economy.  If this were the mid-1990s, they might be 50% higher.  I find that the more important question is, will the course continue to be maintained at a high level?  The next question is, how much of the $$$ is going into Rees' fee to (continue to) redesign holes?  Pretty soon, we won't argue over Tillinghast vs. Berbeck, will we?

[Phil_the_Author]

A week away playing SFGC & walking the Cal Club with Kyle Phillips only to come back and see that Matt simply keeps missing the very SIMPLE solution to his Bethpage Black price problem...

Matt, MOVE to NEW YORK! 

You keep complaining about the prices and keep mentioning that it is a New York State municipal course and then complain when NY state residents pay half of what out-of staters pay... That is an absurd argument my friend. Almost every single municipal golf complex that I know charges more to those who don't live in their municipality.

Where does the money go?

Let's see. All those who've seen a great increase in the quality of the Red course in the past 10 years speak up. Where did the money for that come from? They will be starting a similar project on the Blue course and the Green course has seen a number of bunkers rebuilt in the past few years. Where did the money come from to fix up Montauk Downs and other New York state courses? Yes, those in Albay certainly have no problem using Bethpage monies for a variety of projects, but the money does go to a number of courses statewide that wouldn't see any if it weren't for Bethpage...

So good to be back, although I'll be visiting Bethpage in a few weeks myself!

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Show me the info that says the proposed increase -- both in and out of state has actually stayed at the complex.

Please do.

Most situations of that type usually involve people plundering the pool of $$ and then using it for other means. It's a common
political outcome.

The other issue Phil that you sidestepped -- tapdanced around -- is how BB is prepared daily. The fairways need to be much wider and the rough much less thick. The place is a CRAWL -- I'm sorry let me say it more accurately ... C...R...A...W...L to play on most occasions. The set-up is beyond the means of most players and given the natural rolling nature of the terrain and shotmaking requirements are more than enough to overcome. The $$ needed to keep the course at that level is not needed and therefore the price increases could have been lower. The movement to higher prices is akin to the BS excuses we get from toll road authorities and the like.

In regards to out of state fees -- I have no issue for jurisdictions having a higher fee for those living outside the state -- but if everyone did that the resulting situation would only be counterproductive to the game itself. BB doesn't need to be heading in the same direction as PB and Pinehurst #2 in regards to fees.

One final thing -- BB should not be the cash cow for other courses -- either they can raise their fees or simply operate at a lower level of maintenance.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

I agree with your sentiments.  However, pretty much all state budgets are in a pretty precarious position.  The pension obligations of some states is simply staggering.  This is the tip of the iceberg.  And if you think NY is poorly managed, just be thankful you don't live in Illinois or California...Of course I guess the silver lining, depending on your point of view, is the Casino/Marijuana dispensary coming to a town near you....

[Phil_the_Author]

In my best Pat Mucci imitation...

Phil:

Show me the info that says the proposed increase -- both in and out of state has actually stayed at the complex.

Matt. I never said that; in fact I said the opposite.

"Where did the money come from to fix up Montauk Downs and other New York state courses?"

Please do.

Most situations of that type usually involve people plundering the pool of $$ and then using it for other means. It's a common
political outcome.

Since you seem to be making a rather bold accusation, please provide the info that proves that people have been "plundering" tghe Bethpage moneys.

The other issue Phil that you sidestepped -- tapdanced around -- is how BB is prepared daily. The fairways need to be much wider and the rough much less thick. The place is a CRAWL -- I'm sorry let me say it more accurately ... C...R...A...W...L to play on most occasions. The set-up is beyond the means of most players and given the natural rolling nature of the terrain and shotmaking requirements are more than enough to overcome. The $$ needed to keep the course at that level is not needed and therefore the price increases could have been lower. The movement to higher prices is akin to the BS excuses we get from toll road authorities and the like.

I've never sidestepped that issue. You know for a fact that I've spoken to the pwoers that be at Bethpage about those very issues and have stated so in other threads on the site. That I have recommended widening the fairways, etc... Yes, I have reported back to all that the reason for keeping it is because they want to provide a true U.S. Open experience for the public golfer and that their own information shows that far more people have agreed with this decision than don't. Also, there are many reasons for the price increase including raising the standards on the other courses at Bethpage which still suffer in many respects maintenance-wise.

In regards to out of state fees -- I have no issue for jurisdictions having a higher fee for those living outside the state -- but if everyone did that the resulting situation would only be counterproductive to the game itself. BB doesn't need to be heading in the same direction as PB and Pinehurst #2 in regards to fees.

Matt, evidently in all of your travels you haven't been playuing municipal courses... Almost everyone of them do charge higher rates for out of municipality players. Bethpage is neither setting a standard  in this nor following the direction of PB & Pinehurst #2, neither or shich is a municipally-owned golf course when last I checked...

One final thing -- BB should not be the cash cow for other courses -- either they can raise their fees or simply operate at a lower level of maintenance.

In this I disagree with you. Though I am NOT saying that they should be a "cash cow" monies that they can raise significantly more revenues than other NY State-run facilities is something that can and should benefit ALL New York State residents as it is THEIR their privilege as residents of New York State and their own monies that have been invested at Bethpage and other facilities for many years that have enabled the park and courses to stay open. That is why someone who lives in the Finger Lakes and who can't travel to Long Island to enjoy the park should still be able to see a better golf course in his local area because of what he has invested so far away...

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

You tapdanced around what I asked -- show me -- or prove to me that the added $$ rate increase actually stays at Bethpage. The answer is -- it doesn't. Albany just simply slapped an extra fee increase to cover their stupdiity in running things.

Phil, you said it yourself -- Bethpage is funding other layouts through the system. The problem is that each of the facilities in the state should show independently of any other facility if they are still able to operate in the black and not depend upon the cash cow that is Bethpage.

The US Open experience

Know what that means ... the C-R-A-W-L OF six plus hour golf as Joe Chopper who could not hit Kansas from the Colorado stateline attempts to play a place that is MILES beyond his best ability. Bethpage Black should simply provide tour bus guides of the facility for those who who want to see it -- playing it is inane because the famous sign that greets you at the 1st tee is simply disregarded by the hordes who are simply overmatched.

[John Moore II]

Matt-To say that Bethpage funds the other courses is probably not a lie, and I see nothing wrong with that. At the military bases, the golf course facility typically winds up funding nearly the entire Morale, Welfare, and Recreation program. That and the Base Exchange. They fund the gym facilities, community events and all sorts of other things around the base. To say that a golf course funds an entire parks system is not a stretch and likely the truth in most places, not just NY.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

You don't get it -- Albany raised the $$ simply to cover their own stupid decisions regarding budgetary shortfalls. These are the same turkeys who plundered and pillaged Bethpage for years prior to all the fanfare attached to the place hosting the US Open.

Bethpage can easily run on the existing rates the extra $$ will not go to Bethpage or even other facilities -- it will be absorbed into Albany's never ending appetite for more and more $$$$$.

The problem is that Bethpage is not the ultimate ATM machine to draw down $$ for other reasons. If a facility can't support itself then the answer is a simple one -- close the doors.

Phil --

To answer the rest of your response ...

The course should have at minium 40-50 yard fairways and no more than 2-3 inch rough tops !!!

The facility can't have it both ways -- be a US Open layout and then not provide course personnel to keep play moving.

Phil, beg your pardon partner -- I was weaned on muni golf and still play it religiously. The silly idea of raising fees is simply counterproductive -- you don't encourage more play but less.

The other courses at Bethpage are not that bad in shape -- they just don't need to be super manicured like Garden City Men's Club.

Last item -- let the Fingers Lakes person and those playing that course take care of it -- if they can't get needed maintenance to keep the place where it should be -- don't pick the pocket of Bethpage to bail themselves out. Let me remind you that the bulk of $$ that supports Bethpage -- likely a huge percentage -- is from the immediate area -- the contrbutions from places like Oswego or Watertown is simply a pittance at best.

[Jason McNamara]

The silly idea of raising fees is simply counterproductive -- you don't encourage more play but less.

Discounting the idea of a Veblen good, isn't it the case the the Black has ample demand?  OK, so they've just raised the weekend in-state price from $60 to $75.  Do you think demand will decrease by 25% in light of this price hike?

Joe asked about the Red earlier.  It's now $48 for locals on weekends, $96 otherwise.  That's a darn good deal anywhere in the country, and a downright steal in NYC.  Centennial is $135 on weekends, and Branton Woods was just bought by His Donaldship, so let's not pretend that's going to be cheap.    (And I assume neither is anywhere near as well-regarded as the Red, never mind the Black.)
All Bethpage rates are here:  http://nysparks.state.ny.us/golf-courses/11/fees-rates.aspx

Clarification for Brett:  Yes, the Black is simply the "victim" of being a very good golf course in America's most populous metro area, said area being woefully undersupplied with quality public (muni or daily fee) golf.  And the US does have a muni golf tradition, though -generally- (not always) it is pretty cheap, architecturally uninspired, and subject to mediocre maintenance levels.  (There are of course several notable exceptions, among them Keller, Sleepy Hollow, Buffalo Dunes, Pinon Hills, Brown Deer....  EDIT: and Wintonbury Hills)

Btw Matt, you seem to be showing something of an anti-Albany tic.  As a NJ golfer and office-holder, I'd expect you to be more outraged that
(a) NJ doesn't have anything like Bethpage and
(b) NJ's budget deficit is far (FAR) higher in %age terms

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

You must be skipping over some stuff previously written.

Bethpage is keeping the Black at US Open levels and no matter WHATEVER they charge -- the pace of play kills the entire experience.

They don't engage personnel to move things -- and when you have people who can't hit Kansas when standing on the Colorado state line you're in for a LONG DAY -- A VERY LONG DAY.

Jason, on your other points ... NY is far worse on the politico scene than Jersey -- not even close. David Patterson is totally clueless and the entire legislature is simply a monument to ignorance, stupididty and corruption.  NJ has a solid county owned public course operation with the likes of Morris, Monmouth and Somerset Counties leading the way and there are some town courses that are very good -- see Knoll / West in Parsippany as a great example. Nothing like the Black but NJ's depth is far better than all of NY State. Percentage terms in regards to the budget is really a false sense of the total picture. NJ does have serious issues but NY is leading the way on that front in terms of the depth and magnitude in my mind.

Frankly, the funds being raised by Albany is nothing more than the capital grabbing what it can. A pity indeed that such misfits are allowed to continue in office.

[Jason McNamara]

You started with complaining about prices for non-residents, then it was prices plus "access."  Now you've moved on to pace of play, but that didn't even occur to you until someone else mentioned it.  It's as if you really needed to get a Bethpage rant out of your system, then realized your initial argument wasn't getting anywhere.  (I noticed you ducked Joe's request for Red pricing info, even though you did post 6 times between his initial post and when he actually answered his question himself.)  If pace was the issue you now deem it to be, why didn't you lead with that?  You're like Kevin Nealon in that old Weekend Update bit:  "Never mind that other stuff.  What I -really- meant to say was..."

Given all that, most would admit they blundered and started a stupid thread, and leave it there.  But don't let that stop you.  Do you think pace of play depends at all upon funding levels determined at the state level?  Put another way, if the BP complex was rolling in dough, do you really think they would choose to spend that money on speeding up rounds?  There were pace problems at BPB three years ago, right?

"[T]he fee increases have minimized my rounds at the Black now to at most one or two.  It's not that I don't have the funds but when you compute the travel time, tolls, gas and then the incessant waiting that only makes the total golf round go to 5 1/2 hours or more"  
Matt Ward, May 2007:  http://tinyurl.com/y3zmuot

So pace of play was apparently a problem before the economy blew up.  Clearly BPB rounds take far longer than they could, but judging by the past, it hasn't been a money-related issue.  Even when the state did have money, they weren't concerned with pace of play.

Then there's your most recent statement:
"Bethpage is keeping the Black at US Open levels and no matter WHATEVER they charge -- the pace of play kills the entire experience."

No matter WHATEVER [sic] they charge?
Congratulations - you've just abandoned the entire thrust of your initial post on this thread.

And if you really think a $10B deficit on a $130B budget (NY) represents worse governance than a $10B deficit on a $30B budget (NJ), I will kindly ask you not to run for any federal office.
(Yes folks, the estimated 2011 deficits are similar in size, but the Empire State budget is one hundred thirty billion and the Garden State budget is "only" thirty billion.)

EDIT:  Also, to disabuse people of the idea that the NY State Parks Dept is merely interested in screwing over New Jersey golfers,  here's a list of the suggested state park closures:  http://tinyurl.com/y9ucq43


ps.  To prevent any misconceptions:  I am not claiming...
(a) that the state of NY is well-run wrt its budget
(b) that NJ doesn't have good depth and value among its public access courses
(c) BP shouldn't try to speed up rounds

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

The issue at BB is combination of differen items -- much more than a rant. The price situation is really unnecessary -- you also have the access issue -- really tough for those out of state folks to secure a tee time. The final element is a result of the way the course is set-up for daily play (way to tough) and as a result you get choppers playing the Black when they have little or no game to start with.

It's all wrapped together amigo.

The problem with Bethpage is that they course personnel -- they just need to be out on the course and moving the slow moving cattle. This happened years before the US Open idea was even remotely contemplated. You understand now.

Jason, if you seriously contemplate that what goes on in NY State -- in its entirety is less than what happens in NJ then you need to open your eyes and mind to the realities the Empire State is facing. NJ has its issues -- no doubt about that but NY is beyond that on a host of fronts. Albany is completely dysfunctional and the ascension of Patterson proves that. One other thing you overlooked or failed to acknowledge -- check out the total overall debt that NY has incurred -- versus NJ. Also, on the pension unfunded liability that a State the size of NY has reached versus that of NJ.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

One other thing you failed to mention or have amnesia with -- NY need to use Bethpage as a money ATM machine because of their own mismanagement at the state level. The fee increase is only going to go to the general fund accounts. NY is not alone in such a money movement matter of this type. The other factor is that the detailing that one sees the Black today is overgrooming and in keeping the layout at US Open levels is a drain on such resources -- the place can't be all things to all people. If Tiger and Lefty were the only ones playing -- so be it. When Joe Sixpack is playing and just started playing golf and then decides to "take on" the Black the resulting gridlock is more than most can bear. The combo of items I mentioned is not just about the cost alone but the items that are linked in making such a playing experience far less than what it needs to be.

My "ducking" Joe's request for Red Course info was far from that. I simply provided discussion on the Black Course and others did provide the info he was searching for.

NJ offers a better situation through its county-owned layouts than what you see with NY State parks that have golf. No doubt the Black is the flagship layout and the Red and Montauk Downs are solid -- although the latter could even be better with additional efforts after years of neglect.

[Jason McNamara]

Matt -

You first claimed that the price hike (and only the price hike) was the big deal, but then you said "Bethpage is keeping the Black at US Open levels and no matter WHATEVER they charge -- the pace of play kills the entire experience."  Do you truly not see a disconnect between your first post and the subsequent quote?  You start the thread by trashing the price increase, then say the price is irrelevant.

As for NY vs. NJ, feel free to show me figures, whether to advance your point or refute the figures I cited.  I don't accept Matt Ward's Proof By Assertion (tm).*  (Hint: I don't think you're going to like the numbers on unfunded liabilities, but I am not going to do your work for you.)

* A.k.a. Proof By Open Your Eyes, Proof By Wake Up Amigo, and Proof By You Don't Understand Pardner
(But kudos for branching out this time and going the amnesia route - a nice departure from your usual hackneyed style.)

[Phil_the_Author]

Jason,

Please stop talking sense to Matt before he brings up his "make the 18th a driveable par-4" idea once again!

Seriously, agree with Matt or not, and many times, especially where it involves Bethpage I do not, You have to appreciate his passion for his beliefs and strength of his stances. He's a good guy... he just doesn't know a damn thing about Bethpage... 

[Jason McNamara]

Seriously, agree with Matt or not, and many times, especially where it involves Bethpage I do not, You have to appreciate his passion for his beliefs and strength of his stances. He's a good guy... he just doesn't know a damn thing about Bethpage... 

As long as we can differentiate fact from opinion, and buttress the latter with the former upon request, no problem here.  (Other than the "Wake up" / "Open your eyes" tripe trope - that does get old.  And who wants tripe, anyway?  Yuck.)

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Let me start again in the event you missed it.

BB doesn't need to be in daily US Open form -- it would help matters to be more player friendly. Related to that is this silly idea that NY State is raising $$ and keeping that extra $$ in the park system. It's simpy being absorbed into the general fund. BB doesn't need to spend all the time and $$ to groom a course that's way too tough for people to play and takes way too long to complete. Simple steps -- although different in name -- would be the way to go to keep the course playable and more affordable for the bulk of people opting to play it. The sad fact is the course personnel to nothing to keep play moving -- even before the US Open preparation got started prior to '02's event.

Bethpage is becoming more and more a de facto private club save for the NYers who can access it via the tee time call in program. The extra $$ may seem insignificant to outsiders who pay as much -- or more -- for wherever they play. But, for those fortunate few who can get on -- be sure to the Sunday NYT with you as each tee will allow you plenty of time to read different sections.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

If you think NY State is in better condition than NJ please knock yourself out and let me know which categories of improvement are present within The Enpire State. If I'm not mistaken NY, after CA, leads the nation in net migration OUT.

[Jason McNamara]

I have pointed out (again, using your words) that the maintenance and pace of play of BP-Black was consistent from well before the econo-meltdown to now.  There is no relationship between maintenance levels and the state's financial situation.  As you admitted in Dec. 2008, "I have commented several times on how the maintenance practices there need to be better planned in regard to the course's overall playability."  http://tinyurl.com/y3jnpqu

In fact, you were complaining about the rough there eight years ago:  "I can remember playing many a six-hour round at Bethpage Black and watching as player after player wandered into the hay and the death march began on nearly every hole."  http://tinyurl.com/y5e9g2g  Jan. 2002

You've been consistent in your complaints about BP-B's playability and pace.  Fine, and btw a legitimate claim likely supported by everyone on this site.  What has NOT been consistent is Albany's finances. 
       When Albany has money, the course is a difficult slog. 
       When Albany does not have money, the course is a difficult slog. 

So where's the correlation between BP-B's playability and funding?  These two items are not related just because you say so.  Clearly there's a desire by BP mgmt to present the course in a certain fashion, which may be wise or not.  That is, such an Open-type set-up may in fact be part of the overall appeal.  Honestly, I don't know.  (By the same token, you don't know either.  You have an opinion, sure, but you do not know.)  I think your argument might be stronger if the state weren't raising all golf rates and planning to close a full quarter of all state parks and historic sites.  But BP is surely not the only target (Jones Beach summer parking is going from $6 to $10), and the new rate for the Black is still an excellent value for residents. 

Now, why do you keep changing the metric for NY vs. NJ?  It rather resembles the way you switch from one Bethpage argument to another.   If pricing doesn't work, try pace.  If deficits don't work, try unfunded liabilities.    Just keep poking around, right, and at some point you'll stumble on to a good argument.  Incidentally, I would guess that you are right (finally!) about migration patterns, even though I suspect NJ is also a net loser.  I'll still ask you to provide some figures.

Finally, in your addendum you misrepresent my opinion.  I have never claimed that there's any "improvement" in NYS, so expecting me to do so now is either sloppiness or willful misdirection on your part.  In fact I specifically claimed the opposite (see my reply #63, postscript 'a').  I was hoping to preempt your use of a straw man, but no such luck I guess.

Well, enough of that.  Answer the question I posed in #66 while avoiding your tedious clichés ("in case you missed it") and some specious claim that I'm now electing to run off (yes, I know you pull that one too), and you can have the last word.  Otherwise, I am happy to discuss this further.  Your call - you need to go another round?

[Andrew Bertram]

Over the past month i have assisted 3 groups of our Members with arrangements for US trips and Bethpage is very frustrating.

With the need to make arrangements well in advance and planning of games at the various clubs they want visit Bethpage make it nearly impossible.

All the groups have been happy to use NY shuttle at $400US a player however it could be made far easier and fairer for overseas visitors to be able to book in advance to assist with their planning.

I agree completely with the preference being given to locals and would not have an issue with a premium being charged to allow for this service for limited number of overseas visitors. To suggest to a visitor, as they did to me when in NY in 2008, to turn up at 5am and take your chances is simply ont good enough. I had worked all of the orther courses in and left a day for the black, i got lucky when a player did not tunr up and i got on.
 
With the Member groups mentioned i have had no problem arranging Shinnecock, The National, Sebonak, Winged Foot and Maidstone. Bethpage is the only one we continually have no luck with.

I have no expectations that they will look into this type of program for visitors but it would more than likley increase revenue for them.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

Well said -- the availability element is becoming more and more demanding for anyone outside NY State to play Bethpage Black. A shame indeed but no doubt those within the state may see that as a good thing in their own way.

Jason:

You don't seem to get it -- Albany simply raised the fees to cash in on what Bethpage is doing. They bumped the fees big time because of their own financial mismanagement at the state level. It would be great if the $$ that was raised was pushed back into the parks system but it won't -- it will be absorbed into the general fund. The other pakrs are suffering in a somewhat similar fashion because they never received the appropriate level of $$ needed to keep them at a reasonable level. The Jones Beach debacle is another sign of the inept and inane leadership drection (shall I be so bold to call it that) that one fines in NY.

BB has always been a slow trek -- minus the early morning groups that police themselves quite well. The personnel don't engage the customers to keep to a minimum five hour pace -- as a result you get tee back-ups that are further complicated by the way the course is prepared daily now.  You then take the weak tapdance answer that it "which may be wise or not." Boy, Jason really going out on a limb here aren't we? The width of the fairways should be 50 yards across on any number of holes and the rough scaled back to a height inthe 2-3 inch territory at most.

Have you played BB recently and seen what the course is doing to the vast preponderance of players who have little skills to handle such rigorous conditions? Let me point out that $$ would be saved by allowing BB to be more user-friendly and less emphasis on the rough and the like.

Jason, CA leads the nation in net migratin out -- NY is right behind -- for a time Louisiana was right up there too after Katrina -- NJ, I believe, follows the big time I just mentioned but the numbers are much less so.

Jason, you are right -- for residents and residents ALONE the rates are fine. If NYers are the only target audience that's fine. Let me point out that even if some people DO EMBRACE the US Open set-up the downfall comes with the sluggish predictable play that happens again and again. Bethpage Black is no longer fun to play for me -- save for the tournaments I have played there when all the choppers and clutter were pushed aside.

[Phil_the_Author]

C'mon Matt,

How many different ways do you want to have it?

"Albany simply raised the fees to cash in on what Bethpage is doing. They bumped the fees big time because of their own financial mismanagement at the state level. It would be great if the $$ that was raised was pushed back into the parks system but it won't..."

Earlier when I pointed out how the revenues from Bethpage support many other courses and parks throughout the state you said that the ones living in those areas should carry their own weight and not get Bethpage monies. Now you want Bethpage monies to go to them?

You have reached a decision and simply see things in a manner that fiot your set of facts rather than seeing what is actually occuring.

Andrew, I'm sorry that you can't make arrangements for out-of-towners to play Bethpage Black, but lets be honest here, don't most private clubs LIMIT the number of guests that a member can bring to play? The fact of the matter is that there are always limits of play at EVERY golf club or facility. No club can allow everyone who wants to play to have access; otherwise there'd be a pretty long line of guys in cars sleeping for weeks at a time just to get the opportunity to play at Pine Valley.

Just as a club like Pine Valley can limit play for the guests of their members so can the State of New York. Actually, Bethpage's system is better than most private clubs in that there is no requirement that a guest play with a member, or in this case, that all out-of-towners have at least one New York State resident in their group.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Let me explain it again in the event you missed it -- age can play funny tricks you know.

I want Bethpage to keep its revenue at Bethpage -- simple as that. Bethpage is not an ATM card to protect everyone else. If the funds are not there at the other places they can either raise their rates or decide to close the doors. I also don't see why NY State upped the rates - save for the fact to collect their share and not put back into the system. YOu also have the inane costs associated in keeping the Black US Open ready each and everyday. No need to do that -- return the course to the more wild and wooly look and keep the fairways wider and the rough shorter.

The reality is that with the automated tee time system Bethpage has become a defacto private club -- especially for foursome and groups larger than that. I feel sorry for those who have not had the Black experience and will feel so totally ignored through the existing system but NYers have installed a practive that sees their needs as the top one to consider. So be it.

Phil, you make the error in linking what private clubs to outsiders. Bethpage is a public facility -- huge difference between BB and PV.

[Jason McNamara]

You don't seem to get it -- Albany simply raised the fees to cash in on what Bethpage is doing. They bumped the fees big time because of their own financial mismanagement at the state level. It would be great if the $$ that was raised was pushed back into the parks system but it won't

Matt, everyone else on this thread seems to get the idea that (a) the economy is tough everywhere, (b) it's not just BP that's suffering price hikes / closures, and (c) it's commonly the case that that a flagship operation will subsidize other state/municipal operations.  Why is that so difficult for you?  How do you not get the idea that many if not most municipals are -never- expected to run a profit?  At best, they break even.  I know you don't like part [c], but to pretend it's not thus ignores a big hunk of reality.  Heck, you are the one who keeps saying that munis are not CCFADs.  That's true - CCFADs have to show a profit, and munis do not.

BB has always been a slow trek -- minus the early morning groups that police themselves quite well. The personnel don't engage the customers to keep to a minimum five hour pace -- as a result you get tee back-ups that are further complicated by the way the course is prepared daily now.

Does BP have a reason for not moving groups along?  I agree with you here, as I already indicated.... someone should be riding herd on slow groups.  I'd also be for requiring 18 or better handicaps to play the Black at all, and restricting the tips to pros and plusses (which I am not).  But that has no impact on the funding issue.  (As for set-up, see below.)

You then take the weak tapdance answer that it "which may be wise or not." Boy, Jason really going out on a limb here aren't we? The width of the fairways should be 50 yards across on any number of holes and the rough scaled back to a height inthe 2-3 inch territory at most.

So that you don't take my statement out of context, what was my sentence immediately following?  "That is, such an Open-type set-up may in fact be part of the overall appeal."  Does the average Bethpage Black golfer want a US Open-style set-up?  I can admit I do not know the answer to that question.  Why can't you?  I realize you disagree, but that's merely your opinion.

Thanks for tapdance, btw.  I am about to win this round of Matt Ward Cliché Bingo:

       e-z             empire state    team nicklaus        you don't
                                                                       understand

    smell the          bonafide            partner           beehive
      coffee                                                           state

   tapdance            let me            open your          amnesia
                         explain again         eyes

   ALATPTPT*          amigo             pennsy           what's the
                                                                      slope and rating
* As long as they play the proper tees


Have you played BB recently and seen what the course is doing to the vast preponderance of players who have little skills to handle such rigorous conditions? Let me point out that $$ would be saved by allowing BB to be more user-friendly and less emphasis on the rough and the like.   See above on both topics.

Jason, CA leads the nation in net migratin out -- NY is right behind -- for a time Louisiana was right up there too after Katrina -- NJ, I believe, follows the big time I just mentioned but the numbers are much less so.

Still couldn't show me numbers.  Well, close enough.  I won't hold you to the same level as, say, you demanding slope and rating numbers.  As if you are going to base a trip on a course's slope and rating.  (Note to everyone else: yes, I see the ridiculousness of trying to force Matt to make a specific argument I knew I was going to lose.)

Jason, you are right -- for residents and residents ALONE the rates are fine. If NYers are the only target audience that's fine.

NYers are the target audience that matters for a NY muni.  Why on earth would you think for a moment they should care about your opinion of their prices?

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