Pre and Post Depression public and resort community courses

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the 16th hole at Green Lakes. IMO RTJ's most interesting designs were his earliest designs.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Green Lakes is another very nice course I've played.   Why don't you just include all courses built through 1950?

If you are unable to correctly interpret what "until the Depression" means, then that's your problem, not mine.

Most historians make the start of the Depression with the October 1929 Market Crash, and I see no reason to revise history as you summarily and consistently attempt to do.

Your list may have some interest, although it's still a jumble of different types of courses, but it's a very weak, flaccid, and ineffectual tool if you're attempting to disprove my statement.   

It also betrays your lack of confidence in being able to name quality courses through 1929 that were demonstrably better than Cobb's Creek.

Keep at it though...you may find something someday.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

"Your list may have some interest, although it's still a jumble of different types of courses, but it's a very weak, flaccid, and ineffectual tool if you're attempting to disprove my statement. "


MikeC:

I guess that's what he's doing even if he constantly fails to admit it. If that's NOT what he's doing, I must say I've never really understood the point of his on-going list or what he thinks he's accomplishing with it.  

At one point, he said himself that he is learning from it even if he's never mentioned exactly what it is he's learning.  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm just wondering why he's prejudiced againt East Lake, Charlotte, Timaquanna, and of course, all the east coast vacation playgrounds like Mountauk Downs and Atlantic City, all which could be played for a fee.

By the definition he's using for courses like Gulf Hills and Pasadena, there is no reasonable reason to exclude any of these above or many others.

Of course, I guess that's what happens when you don't base a list on personal knowledge, but based instead on what you find along the way in 1950's Travel Guides while doing your summer research project and trying to provide daily reports as if you actually are knowledgable on your subject.

Of course, from my perspective, finding that Sharp Park was actually open for a decade with the Mackenzie/Egan course intact, as well as finding it was funded completely with a Depression-era public works $8 million package is simply the coup de grace, making this whole strange trip worthwhile. 

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Green Lakes opened May 1936; prior to Bethpage-Black.

Evidently you are having difficulty understanding my criteria. One more time, I don't include private clubs or resort courses. I do include daily-fee courses in winter resort areas or summertime colonies or rural communities or large metropolitan areas be they in the North, South, East or West, just as they are included on modern lists of public courses. They are considered public golf courses, and you knew that when you made your silly claim.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

If your list included courses from the UK, SPECIFICALLY, would the Old Course be included?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

How many years was 1936 from the beginning of the Depression?

What would make Pasadena a public course and Montauk Downs a resort course?

All of the courses in Florida, GA, NC, and SC, including ones like East Lake, could be played for a daily-fee.   Why are you excluding them?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are?  I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.

Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on.  Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?

I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques.  But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?

 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

How many years was 1936 from the beginning of the Depression? The same number of years as from the beginning of the Depression until the founding of Bethpage-Black.

What would make Pasadena a public course and Montauk Downs a resort course? For the third or forth time, Montauk Downs was directly connected to the Montauk Manor making it a resort, therefore ineligible. Pasadena was a daily-fee course without any direct affiliation with a hotel or resort.

All of the courses in Florida, GA, NC, and SC, including ones like East Lake, could be played for a daily-fee.  Why are you excluding them? I exclude all private courses even if they allow reciprocal play. Most private golf clubs outside the South allowed reciprocal play in those days, they are excluded as well.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are?  I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.

Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on.  Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?

I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques.  But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?

 

Stevens Park was 6385 par-71. Its a pretty simple criteria to be considered: all public or daily-fee courses excluding resort courses.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Sorry to but in before page 24, but have you posted what your criteria are?  I know you have mentioned that you consider several things, but I haven't seen what they are.

Also, given that your list sits at an odd number of 71 courses, why is it necessary to remove some courses and replace them? Frankly, looking at the courses on that list, there is a wide variety of quality (based on me having seen them as far back as 1967) For example, Stevens Park is still not over 6000 yards and you have removed others for being too short by then standards, but leave that one on.  Why not just add courses that you find to have been decent?

I understand that the more you add information about your ranking system, the more you subject yourself to the Philly boys (and others) critiques.  But, once YOU try to make is some kind of definitive historical list, rather than a summer research project, that is kind of the risk and responsbility you take on , isn't it?

 

Stevens Park was 6385 par-71. Its a pretty simple criteria to be considered: all public or daily-fee courses excluding resort courses.

I wasn't asking about your criteria to be considered for the list....I was asking about your criteria for being evaluated as worthy of being called a "top public course."

Still mystified as to how Stevens went from over 6300 yards to under 6000, knowing the course.  I sincerely doubt it was ever that length unless they were lying on the scorecard.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom MacWood,
Was Hershey (PA) ever public?  (I honestly don't know).  Today, the only way to play is to stay at the resort.

--------------
PS - I think you and David could provide some insight into the "Destroy Sharp Park Golf" movement I've read about.  Seems that some SF residents want to can the course and turn it into a nature preserve.  It's not germane to this thread, but it could be good insight into what we may see at other locations in the future.   (Example opinion piece:  http://sfnaturalareas.org/entries/72 and a pro-save Sharp Park piece http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/sharp-park ).  

[DMoriarty]

Dan,

I think there are posters from the Bay area who are much more familiar with the battle than I am.   Here is a link:

http://www.sfpublicgolf.com/

The interesting aspect of the opposition to the course is they are using familiar arguments (endangered species, not for the benefit of taxpayers, not economically feasible) but they are doing so about an already existing use as opposed to new development.   The 'it never would have been built today' argument could have dire consequences if it could ever gain traction.


Mike Cirba,

In your post above you again imply that Sharp Park was payed for entirely from government relief programs passed to help alleviate the Great Depression.    Don't you think you should actually have some firm evidence of this before you state it as if it were true?  Evidence other than your speculation and leaps of logic?  Because all you have thus far is an article indicating that the course was built with public monies.  We already knew that.    

If it was paid for by Depression Relief  Spending then it shouldn't take too much effort to back it up.  

A few more questions for you:

1.  Why do you still care so much about your initial claim about Cobb's Creek being the best public in the country before Bethpage?    Everyone but you knew it was pure hyperbole from the beginning, so why are you still fighting this battle?  Wouldn't it be more productive to see where Tom's list takes us?

2.  Do you concede that Cobbs was not the best course built before Bethpage Black?   If not, then why are you trying to limit the list?    

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

The criteria seems to be that someone might recognize the name of the architect and therefore think the nomination has validity, not that he knows a damn thing about 95% of the courses he's listed.   Of course, he also seems very impressed by courses that have a lot of bunkers and look cool from 10,000 feet, but hey, whatever floats his boat.

However, as mentioned before, any of his courses listed after 1929 have nothing to do with anything I've ever claimed, and he seems either unable to read, or else he is just purposefully misrepresenting what I said....you be the judge.

In any case, here's more on the supposed public, non-resort course at Pasadena.

In 1929, after the Stock Market Crash when the hotels refused to fund it any longer, Pasadena shuttered its doors.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

In your post above you again imply that Sharp Park was payed for entirely from government relief programs passed to help alleviate the Great Depression.    Don't you think you should actually have some firm evidence of this before you state it as if it were true?  Evidence other than your speculation and leaps of logic?  Because all you have thus far is an article indicating that the course was built with public monies.  We already knew that.    

If it was paid for by Depression Relief  Spending then it shouldn't take too much effort to back it up.  

A few more questions for you:

1.  Why do you still care so much about your initial claim about Cobb's Creek being the best public in the country before Bethpage?    Everyone but you knew it was pure hyperbole from the beginning, so why are you still fighting this battle?  Wouldn't it be more productive to see where Tom's list takes us?

2.  Do you concede that Cobbs was not the best course built before Bethpage Black?   If not, then why are you trying to limit the list?    


David,

Those are all good questions and I appreciate the opportunity to address each.

First, although I've tried to explain my original statement prior, perhaps confusion remains so let me reiterate it again.   Perhaps I didn't state it very clearly.

I stated that "up until the Depression", meaning before October 1929, Cobb's Creek was considered by many observers as the best and most demanding public course in the country.

Whether or not you or Tom or anyone agrees with me here, that is the timeframe in question, and that is the timeframe I meant when I originally wrote it.

I also said, "with the subsequent creation of Bethpage", meaning, by the end of the Depression it was pretty clear that Bethpage Black was now the best and most demanding public course in the country.

I purposefully wrote "until the Depression", because after the Stock Market Crash of 1929, almost immediately a lot of things happened that had a long-lasting impact on public golf, good and bad.   As seen in the documentation I provided around Sharp Park, public works programs to provide jobs of all sorts began, from President Hoover's 1930-31 initiatives, to the type of Eight Million dollars in projects approved by the City of San Francisco, that included the monies to fund the creation of Sharp Park.

This was unprecedented and caused a sea change in public golf.   For comparison purposes I illustrated the spending to create Cobb's Creek ($30K) versus the spending to create Sharp Park (over $300K), and you had simply massive changes and building of new courses and mass revisions of old ones over the next decade.   Conversely, those strains in the economy caused other public courses to suffer, dry-up, and disappear, or else conditions were so neglected as to be overgrown fields, or dustbowls of despair.

So, I would never had made a statement that Cobb's Creek was better than any public course until Bethpage in 1936 because it simply wasn't true, and isn't defensible.   Too much monies and manpower flowed into public golf between 1930 to 1936 to make much sense of where any particular course stood in terms of quality at any given point, and I believe Sharp Park is a classic example of that.   Very knowledgeable folks in modern times thought the course lasted only a scant few months, yet it was around in original form for almost a decade.   The amount of work done to the NYC courses was just breathtaking, and in Philadelphia depression-era monies completed the second course at Cobb's Creek (Karakung), as well as the creation of Walnut Lane and League Island (FDR Park).   This type of activity happened in virtually every burb across the country, and it changed the public golf landscape dramatically.   

My reference to Bethpage was simply to say that although it wasn't possible in a period of such fluid dynamism to name a "best public course" between 1930 through through most of the Depression-era activity, by the end of it Bethpage Black emerged as the clear leader, both from a quality standpoint, as well as being viewed as an exceptionally demanding and difficult course, which led to its lore and subsequent reputation.

Now, as far as Tom's list....

I have two issues, primarily.   The first, his continued insistence to include courses through 1936 and then pretend it has something to do with my claim is either an accidental or a purposeful misinterpretation of what I originally wrote.   As I said, I would never contend that Cobb's Creek was viewed as the best public course between 1930-36 because way too much public monies flowed into the game during those years and way too much change in the landscape took place as a result.

The other is simply that he's making it up as he goes along and has very little personal understanding of any of the courses he's mentioned, which leads to a list that includes clear resort courses like Pasadena (see above), or courses where resort accommodations in the forms of bungalows to estates were built along each fairway like Gulf Hills, or millionaire second-home communities like Cleveland Heights and/or Beaver Tail where one simply drove their yacht up to play, or courses so seeming lacking in quality and distinction that leave people like Jeff Brauer scratching their heads to understand exactly what Tom's criteria is for inclusion on the list.

Moreover, his list seems simply intended to annoy.   He first claimed that Cobb's Creek was "somewhere in the middle" of the list in terms of quality, yet yesterday when I asked him why the summary removal of Duck Creek (which had been on his list for weeks), he said he decided it wasn't to the quality of the others, too short, and was now considering the removal of Cobb's Creek and Community Park for the same reasons.

So, I'm happy to discuss any REAL public courses opened before the Depression with anyone, and I believe that Cobb's Creek stacks up in terms of quality and challenge to any of them (but did also mention at least twice that I felt the courses built in California during that time frame were probably the strongest competitors, along with Eastmoreland and Jacksonville Muni).   I'd certainly like to dig in deeper on all of them.

And if others see value in blending courses pre and post Depression, I'm fine with that discussion, as well, but that list has nothing to do with anything I ever claimed for the reasons I provided again.

Thanks for asking. 

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

I didn't think my questions were that complicated.  I certainly didn't ask you to give the same song and dance about why you changed the dates of your claim.   Tom quoted it right above.  You've subsequently added the word "subsequently" but the original claim was pretty straightforward.  Even if it wasn't, you clarified in post 91 (since deleted) when you listed the "years in question" through 1936.   

Whatever you now think you meant, Tom is going by what you said, all your protests notwithstanding.    You wanted different rules so you tried to make your own list.   Why not let him make his?

Because Tom can make a list to any date he wants.   Your endless sarcasm and insults about the qualification of his lists isn't exactly productive (see your post to Dan, above.)   Why not just either help or step aside, and then when he is done you and everyone else can place Cobbs in the proper context and decide for themselves what dates make the most sense. 

As I said, I think you were about the only one who took you seriously from the beginning, so this kicking and dragging your feet seems rather counterproductive and a bit self-centered.  It is not about you at this point, and hasn't been for a long time. 

As for your belief that Tom is only out to annoy, I disagree.  Frankly if I had to place Cobbs with comparable public courses with which I am familiar it would be courses that aren't even on Tom's list, because they haven't made his cut.  And I say this having played the course and liking it. So in my mind the thought of dropping Cobbs altogether from discussion doesn't seem unreasonable to me.   

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

I didn't think my questions were that complicated.  I certainly didn't ask you to give the same song and dance about why you changed the dates of your claim.   Tom quoted it right above.  You've subsequently added the word "subsequently" but the original claim was pretty straightforward.  Even if it wasn't, you clarified in post 91 (since deleted) when you listed the "years in question" through 1936.    

    


David,

Do you read what I write?

While you were away on sabbatical for six months or so, this discussion/disagreement began back in February of this year.  

Here's the link to it;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42829.msg930035/#msg930035

Here's what I wrote back then, copied from that link;

My contention that prior to the Depression and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, Cobb's Creek was known as the best public course in the country was greeted with skepticism in some quarters.

Apparently at least one US Pubilnks champion, and one from New York City at that, agreed with me as seen in this 1925 snippet....




And you're correct, David...Tom can make a list to any date he wants.

But, his list has nothing to do with any claim I've ever made as long as it contains courses opened from 1930-36, as long as it contains resort courses, and I will continue whenever I feel the urge to show his each and every error, and misstatement, and misunderstanding, which is so commonplace as to be almost require a full time staff of editors and is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.

Your reference to my post #91 is also in error, and simply referred to courses where the US Publinks was played, and again was correcting a Tom MacWood error when he claimed that neither Bethpage Black, Bethpage, Red, or Harding Park ever hosted the US Publinks tournament.

As I said, keeping up with his constant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of history is wearisome.

The only reason I care at all to correct him is because my name is regrettably attached to this thread, and because the discussion is based on a purposeful and knowing misrepresentation of what I originally wrote.

Other than that, I have much better things to do than keep up with you and Tom's spiteful, revisionist nonsense.

Perhaps I should just leave this thread to both of you...and the flies.

Have a great day.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

I try to read what you write, but when you write the same thing over and over again it gets a bit hard to pay attention.

1.  I don't care what you wrote before.  My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.  

2.  Even if I cared what you wrote before, that doesn't really clarify the issue at all.  I'd still read it as before Bethpage Black.   Subsequent doesn't mean what you apparently think it means, I think, because BB was built during the depression, not after.

3.  You clarified in POST 91 that the "years in question" were to 1936.   Your excuse for this remark is inaccurate and misleading.   TomM brought up the other Bethpage Courses in POST 92, after you identified the YEARS IN QUESTION in POST 91.     I've explained this to you before, yet you go ahead and misrepresent your reasoning again?   What's up with that?  

4.  At this point it doesn't matter what you want to claim you meant.   Tom is interested in courses before Bethpage Black and his list reflects that.  The conversation has moved well beyond Cobbs Creek, except in your mind.

5.  You seem to be under the impression that if a post sits for a few hours or even days that it somehow isn't worthwhile.   This is another indication that you really don't understand how this entire research and analysis process works.   It doesn't matter how long it takes or how frequently the posts, provided the research and analysis is solid.    I know that you guys think quantity of posts equals quality of posts, but you are mistaken.  

6.  You still have not established that the course at Sharps Park was created as a result of a Relief Program.  Yet you continue to present it as undeniable fact.   Doesn't behaving like this bother you even a little?   Because it should.     Whether you are ultimately correct or incorrect, you just don't have the basis to support your claim, yet you go ahead and and pretend you do.

That is a perfect example of why I am always on you about your methodology, if one can even call it that.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Are you under the impression those articles support your claim that Pasadena was a resort course, because they don't. What is your point?

Dan
You are confusing Hershey Park with Hershey CC, which was the big course for the hotel. Hershey Park was a public course separate from the resort. It hosted the US Public Links in 1957 and was on Mike's recently posted Golf Digest public Top 75. I take it you did see his post.

[Mike Cirba]

1.  I don't care what you wrote before.  My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.  



David,

1. I don't care what you think.   I doubt anyone, anywhere does.

Being an angry, spiteful d*ckhead is no way to go through life, son.


Tom MacWood,

I appreciate your willingness to research and if you ever want to have a serious discussion about pre-Depression public golf, let me know.

I suspect there's a decent guy in there somewhere trying to do the right thing, but you really need to watch the company you keep.

Tootaloo, fellows.

[DMoriarty]

1.  I don't care what you wrote before.  My involvement was in reference to your claim on this thread.  



David,

1. I don't care what you think.   I doubt anyone, anywhere does.

Being an angry, spiteful d*ckhead is no way to go through life, son.

Ahh Yes.  Good Ol' Mike.   Always willing to carry on a reasonable conversation.  Except when he doesn't like where it is going.  Then he throws a hissy fit, hurls some ignorant insults, and stamps his feet as if he was storming off.

The anger, spite, etc. seem to be all your own.

Let me narrow down the questions for you, so as to not get you in another huff . . .

1.   You clarified in POST 91 that the "years in question" were to 1936.   Your excuse for this remark is inaccurate and misleading.   TomM brought up the other Bethpage Courses in POST 92, after you identified the YEARS IN QUESTION in POST 91.     Why do you keep pretending you were responding to something that hadn't yet happened?

2.  You still have not established that the course at Sharps Park was created as a result of a Relief Program.  Yet you continue to present it as undeniable fact.   Why?

[TEPaul]

It would seem the previous post would be far more appropriate, and yes, even factual if the response remained exactly the same but the name "David Moriarty" was substituted in place of "Mike" in the second sentence that reads "Good Ol' Mike."

[Dan Herrmann]

There's a good history at http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/sharp-park

One paragraph:
But for the past 77 years, lucky San Francisco muni players and visitors have had Sharp Park – the Pacific Coast’s answer to North Berwick – a place where a remarkably diverse golfing clientele of all races, languages, social classes, and genders pull their carts, hit their shots, and enjoy a beer and a sandwich in a charming 19th hole pub, for a modest weekday greens fee under $30.  The Spanish hacienda-style clubhouse was a Works Progress Administration construction project, designed by an associate of Willis Polk, who in turn was head of the San Francisco office of Chicago-based master planner Daniel Burnham. In other words, when constructing Sharp Park – in the dark days of the Great Depression – San Francisco went first-class all the way.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for the link Dan.

The clubhouse was built or rebuilt  in 1935 or '36 as a WPA project.  The course was already there.

-----------------------------------

It would seem the previous post would be far more appropriate, and yes, even factual if the response remained exactly the same but the name "David Moriarty" was substituted in place of "Mike" in the second sentence that reads "Good Ol' Mike."

TEPaul,  you've posted over 100 times on this thread about public golf courses, a topic about which you admittedly have little interest and less knowledge.  

Don't you have anything better to do than follow me and MacWood from thread to thread, being obnoxious and trying to start trouble?

[Tom MacWood]

Durand-Eastman is out and Colony outside Detroit is in.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Hollywood (1923) - H.Tippett  (Hollywood, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Cog Hill #2 (1926) - D.McIntosh  (Lemont, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Colony (1926) - CH.Alison (Algonac, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Green Lakes (1936) - RT.Jones  (Syracuse, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Twin Hills (1926) - P.Maxwell (Oklahoma City, Ok)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)