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Mark_Rowlinson

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Punch bowl greens
« on: February 21, 2010, 10:53:14 AM »
What do you think of them?

They were once popular because they gathered dew which watered the green. Many of us enjoyed the ones at Painswick, or did we?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 11:04:27 AM »
What do you think of them?

They were once popular because they gathered dew which watered the green. Many of us enjoyed the ones at Painswick, or did we?


Two of my favorite quirky courses feature punchbowl greens, Painswick and Pennard!  Pennard has several that are fun.

I think it's great when a punchbowl is blind (think #5 and #10 at Painswick, #6 at Pennard) - you hit the shot over the ramparts and really don't know the outcome until you crest the ridge!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 11:13:26 AM »
Personally I like them and I like the two the Bill mentions at Painswick, although most people if they slam Painswick its for those two very holes. I like the semi blindness aspect, 3rd at Deal springs to mind 6th at Lytham too. I built a course on a flat piece of land and with landfill actually made a green blind by putting a large mound in front. Perhaps semi-blindness works best for par 5 holes where there is less pressure to view the green from a long way out but you can see all from the last 70 or so.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 11:46:05 AM »
How about this one?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 11:57:35 AM »
12 at Chicago Golf Club is a great green site.

3 at Deal nestles perfectly into the land and really allows the player to use some imagination with the approach shot.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 01:01:36 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 12:51:13 PM »
I really like them, especially on blind or semi-blind approaches.

Some of my favorites are the 4th at Fishers Island, the 6th at The Creek,  the 16th at NGLA, and the 3rd at Deal.  Plenty of variety within the concept.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 01:15:39 PM »
Do they present particular drainage problems? If the green is lowest in the middle with all the water collecting there does it mean that it is slower in the middle>

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 01:37:41 PM »
Mark, I can't relate to what's over on your side of the pond, but, I'm a huge fan of them when used sparingly. Too many greens with that aspect would seem to contrived, appearing to allow for either faster, or easier play. Similar to containment mounding, if used throughout a design the look can become too repetitive.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 02:06:41 PM »
Punchbowl greens were much more common before irrigation systems, when the goal was to collect enough water to grow grass, instead of just to get it to drain away quickly.  They are a natural formation [there are bowls EVERYWHERE in the dunes], and they do not necessarily make for easy golf.

I suspect I've built more than a lot of architects, because I am prone to using native materials for the greens.  Then you do not have to worry about contaminating the greens mix, as you would on a USGA green if surface water from around the green drains across it.  It is difficult to build a punchbowl in clay soils for that reason, even if you are building USGA greens.

What you don't see much anymore is a green with the bottom of the punchbowl actually INSIDE the green, so it doesn't surface drain anywhere.  The only one I've ever built like that was the 10th at High Pointe (natural).  If you are in an area where there is snow and ice in the winter, you'll eventually have a problem otherwise.  Many of the greens described here actually surface drain off the green ... for example #12 at Chicago Golf Club, or most of Macdonald's other punchbowls.  Interestingly, though, The National Golf Links has quite a few drainage pockets in its greens ... it was built before the days of much irrigation, and Macdonald probably had not anticipated the winter issues at that point.

The last three green sites at Old Macdonald are all punchbowls of one sort or another.

Josh Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 05:01:37 PM »
This one....



And the 5th hole at Kinglsey....



Tom D.             Do any of the Old Mac greens have pockets that don't surface drain?  Can't wait to play the whole thing.

Josh

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 05:35:23 PM »
Josh,

I immediately thought of the 5th green at Kingsley Club as well. I remember my first visit to Kingsley, during construction, I met Mike DeVries while he was personally repairing some wash-outs at the 5th green. I thought: "Cool hole... but, this green doesn't surface drain!"

As far as I know, there haven't been any problems with this particular green... thanks to soil conditions there; and, I believe there's a sump-type drain, with an outlet pipe, installed at the low point.
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 08:03:23 PM »


Tom D.             Do any of the Old Mac greens have pockets that don't surface drain?  Can't wait to play the whole thing.

Josh

Josh:

No, they don't.  After seeing all of the ice damage at National a couple of years ago, I am unlikely to ever build a green that doesn't surface drain.  The one at High Pointe worked for 20 years with a small sump drain, but I suspect it was only a matter of time before it had a problem.  Same for anything in the northern USA.  I guess we could do it in Florida, but, why take the chance?  It's not like getting surface drainage off to the side is going to ruin a hole.

Anthony Gray

Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 09:17:22 PM »


  The bath tub green at Cruden Bay is a neat  variation

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 10:12:22 PM »


  The bath tub green at Cruden Bay is a neat  variation

Sunken greens are not punchbowl greens in my book .


Mark Molyneux

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 10:17:10 PM »
There are some basic differences between punchbowls that are sufficiently deep to obscure a pin like #3 at Pocono Manor or Mountain Manor and punchbowls that are simply deceptive like #8 at Lulu CC, especially when the punchbowls are par 3s like the first two versus par 4s like Lulu.

I've experimented with trying to fly the ball onto the surface and trying to take advantage of the land while running the ball on with a lower shot. The jury is still out.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 11:01:01 PM »
I have played a number of punch bowls and love them. I am now coming around to a strong desire for them to be part of a downhill shot where the shot and outcome are visiable. We all relish the shots where we feed the ball and watch the ball move with the countours. I think a downhill punch bowl would become one of the most popular holes on any course period.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 02:02:14 AM »
What do you think of them?

They were once popular because they gathered dew which watered the green. Many of us enjoyed the ones at Painswick, or did we?


Two of my favorite quirky courses feature punchbowl greens, Painswick and Pennard!  Pennard has several that are fun.

I think it's great when a punchbowl is blind (think #5 and #10 at Painswick, #6 at Pennard) - you hit the shot over the ramparts and really don't know the outcome until you crest the ridge!

Ace

I think you selected three very good punch bowl examples because all are quite difficult shots.  Pennard's only punchbowl (I don't consider #s 1 & 7 punchbowls), the 6th, is a raised punchbowl making it difficult to bounce one in yet you must hit the front part of the green or the ball will go long.  Painswick's 5th is very raised and difficult to judge.  Painswick's 10th is so small and blind that the punchbowl aspect (which I don't think is a true punchbowl anyway) is really not the primary element of the hole.  I like Burnham's 3rd because of the double dip shy of the green making guys fly the green or hit a low screamer - you can't schmooze up there.  I also really like Temple's 10th because it seems so improbable.  There is a punchbowl out there!
 


Ciao
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 04:46:14 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Barber

Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 04:34:48 AM »
There is a really cool green at Brancaster on the back nine (12th) which is a kind of raised punchbowl. Tony Muldoon posted some pictures in http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28076.0/ which I've shamelessly posted here, but these make it seem rather flatter than I remember:

« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 04:36:33 AM by Jamie Barber »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 06:33:14 AM »
One of the reasons I like punch bowls is their rarity, we don't see them that often, at least over here we don't. Also there is something exhilarating about hitting an approach and having no idea what may be the outcome.

I'm not sure this hole is technically a punch bowl, but the 3rd at Moundbuilders CC, built amongst ancient ceremonial mound formations, has some of the same aspects.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 06:34:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 12:26:24 PM »
There is a great one at Augusta CC.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 12:48:44 PM »
I designed one once and it turned out to be a fan fave.  When I asked why the answer was "I can hit it almost anywhere and still end up on the green...or "I can hit almost any club from 8 to 5 iron and it still ends up on the green".

Ask not what the golfer can do by himself, ask what the course can do for the golfer
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 01:20:20 PM »
Dooks #13



Paraiso del Mar #6


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 01:37:00 PM »
Cool photos, as usual, Aidan.

While they each feature a "bowl" of sorts, both of those greens look like they surface drain (?).
jeffmingay.com

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 01:51:39 PM »
Jeff,

Both you and Tom have mentioned the concept of "surface draining". Can you help me understand that a little more than what seems obvious.

Aidan.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Punch bowl greens
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 02:00:26 PM »
Jeff,

Both you and Tom have mentioned the concept of "surface draining". Can you help me understand that a little more than what seems obvious.

Aidan.

Aidan, I am assuming they mean you can't have a 360o puinchbowl green with underground drainage, there needs to be a way for the water to run off on the surface.

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