[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

WR / Lower is easily a top 50 USA course in America in my mind -- in fact, I see it as being beyond what DF provides now -- more like the 21st century golf alternative.

Bogey:

Love the comment !

Candidly, DF is a fine course but the extra helping of penal outcomes make me wonder if people apply different standards to different courses. DF playing a bit wider or having more off-fairway recovery shots would only make the Red Lawrence design even better.

[Dave Givnish]

I've had a bit of experience playing DF, so here's my two cents.

Ward is spot on.  The USGA does love the course.  We had a great time with the Women's Mid-am in 2007.  The course protected par well during stroke play.  20-over made it into match play.  Once we got to match play, there were plenty of birdies to be had.  The longest match went to 23 or 24 holes.  There was a problem with set-up in the Senior Am with pin positions that was not repeated in 2007.

There isn't another course in the state, and damn few in the Southwest, that has the same pure golf experience.  There is nothing better than walking a few holes in the late afternoon and listening to the wildlife start coming out of the desert.  Unlike most of the newer courses in the Valley, it is an easy course to walk.  This was the only course that Red Lawrence did with this shaper and the simplicity of the design has stood the test of time.

There is no question that there is a premium placed on shot-making.  Get the ball in play off the tee and hit the greens, and you'll score well.  There is a price to pay if you don't think or execute.  What's wrong with that?  The fairways are a bit wider than Andy and Matt have said, and the desert has been cleaned out quite a bit over the last few years.  I don't see much of a difference between hitting into our desert or hitting into a fairway pot bunker in Scotland.  I got it there, so deal with it.  Most of the time, I can advance the ball anyway.  It's a great feeling to make birdie or par from the desert and I've had it done to me in more matches than I'd like to admit.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

There is a price to pay if you don't think or execute.  What's wrong with that?  The fairways are a bit wider than Andy and Matt have said, and the desert has been cleaned out quite a bit over the last few years.  I don't see much of a difference between hitting into our desert or hitting into a fairway pot bunker in Scotland.  I got it there, so deal with it.  Most of the time, I can advance the ball anyway. 

This is exactly what I meant in regards to Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs, where a couple times during my round at the latter someone in our group found the "hay" (between 1 and 2; 6 and 7; right of 10; left of 12 and 13; either side of 18).  In the three times i've been to DFGC, i think i've really only been deep in the desert once (right of #9) and i do believe i had a chance to get up and down for par but missed my putt.  Heck, you stray off the fairway on the Lake Course at Olympic sometimes, and you might as well count a stroke or at least a 1/2 penalty. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Sometimes there is an overemphasis on width among participants of this site.  How does that fit with Royal County Down, Royal Portrush, Carnoustie, Royal St. Georges...ect.  Desert Forrest is quite a bit more generous than RCD and many believe that is the best course in the world.  When playing firm, Desert Forest may play closer to British Open links golf than almost any course in the US.  Only 3 and 17 cannot be hit with a run-up shot, and I have witnessed putters used from 25 yards off the green.

[Jud_T]

Why wouldn't the membership at a place like DF want it to be Dormant every winter?

[Tim Nugent]

Because golfers have been brainwashed that only green is good. 

[Jud_T]

Because golfers have been brainwashed that only green is good. 

It's very depressing,  if you can't even sell brown/F&F at a pure golfer's club like DF then we're delusional here if we think we can sell it to the masses....

[Bill Satterfield]

Robert, I'm glad to see they are no long over-seeding the fairways.   I believe the winter-greening was a recent practice as historically they've let it go dormant in the winter. 

Mike

They have chosen to overseed three out of every four years.  This season is that 4th non-overseed year.

[Carl Nichols]

Sometimes there is an overemphasis on width among participants of this site.  How does that fit with Royal County Down, Royal Portrush, Carnoustie, Royal St. Georges...ect.  Desert Forrest is quite a bit more generous than RCD and many believe that is the best course in the world.  When playing firm, Desert Forest may play closer to British Open links golf than almost any course in the US.  Only 3 and 17 cannot be hit with a run-up shot, and I have witnessed putters used from 25 yards off the green.

I personally didn't think it was that narrow -- I hit it in the desert a few times but (a) I'm not the most accurate player, (b) a couple of times I made misjudgments that I wouldn't repeat after my first play, and (c) most of the time I was at least able to chop the ball back in play.  IIRC, the desert is more forgiving than a place like Troon North or Grayhawk.  Having said that, it's definitely narrower than Saguaro and Vista Verde. 

As I've said before, it's my favorite course of those I've played in Arizona (which is a decent but not long list).  IMHO, its shortcoming isn't a lack of width, it's relatively boring greens. 

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Don't know if you have played The Lower Course at WR -- but it's the best place to play in the immediate region in my mind. Does what DF provides while giving the width element and having a more subdued and more desert-oriented dimension without overdosing on the penal side of things.

[Bill Satterfield]

Bill: I am surprised at your disappointment with Blackstone as I think it is far more interesting architecturally than most courses in the Phoenix area.  The course is always in superb condition with some really good par 3s and creative par 5s.  There are a couple of risk/reward short par 4s and the bunkering is original and strategic.  The only criticism that I have heard is from those who do not like the containment mounding which I can certainly understand but to me, it is more to define the hole as opposed to being a crutch. 

It's not that I didn't like it, I just didn't like it as much as the other Engh courses I've played.  I didn't have a problem with the conditioning at all - it was immaculate.  I'm a pretty big Jim Engh fan and think his courses are a blast to play so my standard was pretty high going into the round.  Blackstone is the 9th Engh course I've played.

Engh has cranked out some nice par 5s with creativity over the years.  Of the collection of par 5s at Blackstone I liked #14 the best.  It is very reachable (524 from the tips) and the very deep green is tucked back behind a desert mound which makes going for it in two an exciting and risky deal.  #9 had a nice green site featured on the opposite side of a desert wash which was visually appealling.  #11 (619 yards) had the water feature up the right side and the large mound protecting the front of the green to set it apart.  I got a fortunate kick with my approach shot there as it came off the mound and finished within about two feet for a tap in birdie.  All of that being said, I didn't think those holes were near as good or creative as some of the other par 5s he's been able to produce. 

The 7th hole at Pradera is one of my all time favorite Engh holes and the 18th is great as well.   I'd take the 8th and 16th at Black Rock over any of the par 5s at Blackstone and the same goes for the 4th and 14th at Sanctuary.  In addition, Lakota is packed with great par 5s.  I think a fair amount of that has to do with the more extreme terrain at those courses and Engh's ability to take advantage of it with some really fun and creative holes.

In the par 3 department, I again enjoyed his work more at other sites more than at Blackstone.  The 17th at Blackstone was an interesting hole since we had the back left pin placement that was completely blind from the tee; I enjoy something like that once in a while.  But the other par 3s fall short of some of the dramatic creations he has other places.  For me, I really like #17 at Redlands Mesa, the dramatic 14th at Red Hawk Ridge, the 5th and 6th at Sanctuary, and the collection of one-shotters at Pradera better than anything at Blackstone.

Like I said at the start, I didn't dislike Blackstone, it just wasn't as dramatic and fun as the other Engh courses I've played and I think a lot of that is due to the general lack of elevation change the terrain has in comparison to the other sites he's worked on.

[Bill Satterfield]

Sean,
Not sure I should admit this, but I actually rank every course I've played (320). I was obsessed with lists as a kid, and things evidently didn't change! 

I'm the exact same way.  I've always loved lists, stats, etc.  I grew up playing a baseball game called Strat-O-Matic and I used to track all the players stats and memorized their averages.  Spreadsheet software was a great invention for a guy like me that loves to track stuff like that!

I have an Excel spreadsheet with all 325 courses I've played listed.  They are ranked in order of my personal preference and I have additional charts that track how many courses from every designer whose course I've played, a breakdown in 20 year incriments of what year the courses opened that I've played, the total yardage of each course from the tips, my score and handicap there, my favorite holes, etc.  The spreadsheet file is getting bigger and bigger.  It has about 20 worksheets in it with all sorts of stuff.  I have all my golf scores and stats tracked for the past six years on one worksheet, my favorite holes listed in another, state rankings in another, a list of Golf Digest's Top 100 courses with website links in another, etc.  There is no doubt about it, I'm a golf NERD!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Good to hear you have played nine Engh courses -- so many people on this site opine on what the guy has done from the grand total of 1-2 courses at best.

Blackstone is s fine layout -- but the land provides for a more subdued feeling. No doubt, from my vantage point, that influenced your thoughts to some degree.

I really liked the 9th there as well -- the finishing hole was really a letdown -- obligatory par-5 finisher but lacking the real strategic juice Engh has done at other courses.

Bill, in regards to DF -- if you have not played Lower at WR or the Outlaw at DM - these are two really exciting and fun courses that get little attention. Lefty and Gary Stephenson did one fantastic job at the original 18 at WR.

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
Not sure I should admit this, but I actually rank every course I've played (320). I was obsessed with lists as a kid, and things evidently didn't change! 

I'm the exact same way.  I've always loved lists, stats, etc.  I grew up playing a baseball game called Strat-O-Matic and I used to track all the players stats and memorized their averages.  Spreadsheet software was a great invention for a guy like me that loves to track stuff like that!

I have an Excel spreadsheet with all 325 courses I've played listed.  They are ranked in order of my personal preference and I have additional charts that track how many courses from every designer whose course I've played, a breakdown in 20 year incriments of what year the courses opened that I've played, the total yardage of each course from the tips, my score and handicap there, my favorite holes, etc.  The spreadsheet file is getting bigger and bigger.  It has about 20 worksheets in it with all sorts of stuff.  I have all my golf scores and stats tracked for the past six years on one worksheet, my favorite holes listed in another, state rankings in another, a list of Golf Digest's Top 100 courses with website links in another, etc.  There is no doubt about it, I'm a golf NERD!

Bill,
This is encouraging to me--I only have 10 tabs in my excel spreadsheet. I hate to think of how I could add 10 more! 

Matt,
I was supposed to see WR Lower last month but that was when Scottsdale got a week of rain. I do have a rain check on the invite, so I hope to see it soon.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

Don't know if you have played The Lower Course at WR -- but it's the best place to play in the immediate region in my mind. Does what DF provides while giving the width element and having a more subdued and more desert-oriented dimension without overdosing on the penal side of things.

Matt:
I haven't played it -- yet!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The 9th at Blackstone was originally designed to be the 18th but the nines were flipped to accomodate the clubhouse. By the way, the membership rates have been drastically reduced from their original numbers. Check out the website:

www.blackstonecountryclub.com

[Bill Satterfield]

Matt, Whisper Rock and Desert Mountain were both on our radar for this last trip but didn't work out when all was said and done.  We heard some great stories about Whisper Rock - seems to be a true "players" course.  

It was me and my brother-in-law's first trip to play Arizona golf and we left with a commitment to get back soon.  We want to get both Whisper Rock courses, the Desert Mountain collection, Silverleaf, Mirabel, and some others next time.  We also want to head out to Apache Stronghold but determined that we would do it on a trip when we were down there in March/April so that it isn't in too rough of shape.  Then we'll plan a separate trip to tackle Tucson.  Arizona and the Reno/Tahoe area are the biggest gaps in our resume out West.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Desert Forest is far and away the best desert course I have ever played. The green complexes are wonderful. I think it should not be a stand alone but the course all others on flat land in the desert should copy or try to emulate.

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Not sure I should admit this, but I actually rank every course I've played (320). I was obsessed with lists as a kid, and things evidently didn't change! 

I'm the exact same way.  I've always loved lists, stats, etc.  I grew up playing a baseball game called Strat-O-Matic and I used to track all the players stats and memorized their averages.  Spreadsheet software was a great invention for a guy like me that loves to track stuff like that!

I have an Excel spreadsheet with all 325 courses I've played listed.  They are ranked in order of my personal preference and I have additional charts that track how many courses from every designer whose course I've played, a breakdown in 20 year incriments of what year the courses opened that I've played, the total yardage of each course from the tips, my score and handicap there, my favorite holes, etc.  The spreadsheet file is getting bigger and bigger.  It has about 20 worksheets in it with all sorts of stuff.  I have all my golf scores and stats tracked for the past six years on one worksheet, my favorite holes listed in another, state rankings in another, a list of Golf Digest's Top 100 courses with website links in another, etc.  There is no doubt about it, I'm a golf NERD!

Good golly Miss Molly!  I have never heard of anything like this before. 

I find the comparison to links very interesting - especially the width aspect.  While I didn't find RCD nor Muirfield (though the rough here is stupid) too narrow, I did find Portrush narrow.  One of the reasons it was narrow was down to fairway turns combined with obscurity/blindness and cross-winds - not a great combination for design imo - at least not as often as used at Portrush.   Andy, is this what you mean at DF? 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

[/quote]

I'm the exact same way.  I've always loved lists, stats, etc.  I grew up playing a baseball game called Strat-O-Matic and I used to track all the players stats and memorized their averages.  
[/quote]

Bill,

Strat-O-Matic lives! Introduced it to my son a few years back. Great way to learn the old-timers and get into the stats:

http://www.strat-o-maticmedia.com/

[Andy Troeger]

Sean A.

I think the fairway angles play a role on certain holes and certainly the wind would play a role when present--also I only played the course once, so that probably didn't help. Because the course plays fast, that also puts a premium on accuracy because I felt like it did narrow the effective playing corridors. There are certain holes where the members I'm sure learn how to manage the driving zone when the newbie just hits and hopes. I'm not someone who stripes it down every fairway--I tend to be on the fringes a lot even when playing well but at Desert Forest those balls tended to be lost or unplayable in 4-5 cases and my playing partner found similar situations--that's essentially my issue. Recovery options are an important part of golf to me, so if they have cleared out the desert as Dave G. says that would be a major improvement.

From my viewpoint, this is not problem unique to Desert Forest among Scottsdale courses. A few of the others have been mentioned--Troon North, Stone Canyon, and Quintero are even worse once you get out of play, but there is more grass at those courses in between the desert. To an extent, unless you have the width of We-Ko-Pa Saguaro its a limitation of the genre.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy. Thank you for your descriptions.
 What I'm picking up is that you have totally missed the way in which DF is different from those other courses you just mentioned. Yes, The demand for accuracy at DF is key, that's why a guy like Phil Mickelson will go there, to practice his tee ball game, because you cannot get away with sloppy or indifferent drives. What makes DF special is the way in which the architect presented that challenge through ground movement. Not just absolute narrowness.

There is no other course I can recall playing with the looks that DF has. Throw in the simple straightforward difficult greens and you have your self a course most critics won't like. One that is unique to the desert landscapes and vastly superior to the typical bells and whistles built by BIG name designers.

DF is a special place worthy of independent analysis, not based on how you played.

[Dave Givnish]

On the over-seeding - the mix of Bermuda that we had (419 and Mid Iron) went brown in mid to late November and didn't really get green until early April.  It was great in the summer - when most of our members were somewhere else.  During the club's history, the course was green a number of seasons.  Some were with Rye, but there was also a period where a bent variety was used. 

The Riviera Bermuda looks like it is close to the right type of grass for year-round playing conditions.  It went brown about Thanksgiving.  I'll try to post some pictures from play later today if the rain storms stay away.  Some of the exposed fairways are green already.  Papago used the same grass in the restoration. I'm not sure that this is the 100% solution that will get the members to increase the frequency of leaving the course dormant - yet - but a number of the other courses in the area are leaving their roughs and waste areas go dormant.

An good discussion on course sustainability might compare how the various courses in Phoenix, Tucson, and Palm Springs look and play at different times of the year.  February through May is high season - so everyone expects lush green conditions then. 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For all those DF fans here's the question -- have you played The Lower at WR yet ?

If not -- then your desert golf portfolio in the greater Valley of the Sun area is woefully lacking.

DF is a fine course -- but it gets plenty of love from those who only have played it and few others in the immediate area.

Places like Silverleaf are also well done albeit with a moden housing community adjacent to it.

Outlaw at DM is also well done and provides the playability dimension that DF really does not promote.

Nothing against DF but the general desire to see modern desert golf as lacking and unable to compete successfully with the Red Lawrence gem speaks to a personal preference based on a fairly limited personal sampling of what is in the greater area of course offerings in my mind.

Sean:

Thanks for mentioning what you did on Portrush / Dunluce -- well said and quite accurate from the time I was there.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy. Thank you for your descriptions.
 What I'm picking up is that you have totally missed the way in which DF is different from those other courses you just mentioned. Yes, The demand for accuracy at DF is key, that's why a guy like Phil Mickelson will go there, to practice his tee ball game, because you cannot get away with sloppy or indifferent drives. What makes DF special is the way in which the architect presented that challenge through ground movement. Not just absolute narrowness.

There is no other course I can recall playing with the looks that DF has. Throw in the simple straightforward difficult greens and you have your self a course most critics won't like. One that is unique to the desert landscapes and vastly superior to the typical bells and whistles built by BIG name designers.

DF is a special place worthy of independent analysis, not based on how you played.

Adam,
DF is far different from those other courses in many ways, except for the penal nature of the desert if you get out of play (at least when I was there). They do have that in common. At some level, I don't really care why the course is penal off the tee--that's the difference I have between you and many of the other posters (other than those who don't even see it as being penal). The ground movement works against DF at least as much as it helps in my opinion because quite often the movement seems to funnel balls into the desert exacerbating the problem! I like the look of the place and appreciate its natural qualities--I would prefer more desert courses be built like that (and Apache Stronghold, WKP Saguaro, etc). However, that doesn't excuse the course from being excessively difficult. I think the best courses in the world challenge the better player without overburdening the rest of us--DF only hits half of that equation.

I have to agree with Matt on DM Outlaw--if you are looking for a desert course that is fast/firm with great ground movement that would be my first choice in Scottsdale. They don't overseed it and while its also very difficult, it offers plenty of room to play and also offers interesting greens. I'm pretty sure I shot a lousy number there too, but still hold it in much higher esteem.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()