[Brian Phillips]

Sean - the RC is now Europe v USA unfortuantely the European tour has extended it's boundaries somewhat. What if Dubai, China or
Singapore offered silly money to host the event as they are on the European tour. That could kill it for me.

What time does it get dark in south Sweden in September? I cannot see a drastic move in the dates.

Sweden has longer daylight than any other Ryder Cup European country up to the 21st of September.  There is no problem holding it there...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Light as I said earlier.  in EUROPE its early October form now on so what light is avaible then?


When considering courses, these days hit has to be purpose buiit.  I can't recall the exact no of tickets sold per day but lets call it 30 000.  Crowds want to follow match play and that means upto 10 000 people trying to keep up with Tiger.  No classic course could cope with that. Merion was mentioned but that's for the Walker Cup or a downsized 72 hole strokepaly event.  I was at the K club and there were a couple of pinch points that meant we drooped behind when trying to follow a match. Any more and the crowd would not have accepted it.  Add to that huge areas to cater for 30 000, to park to ahve atented village.


That's progress baby.

[Jud_T]

The sad fact is that the criteria for choosing venues these days seems to have little or nothing to do with history, architecture or match play...

[Brian Phillips]

I believe in Germany there is in-fighting about which course should host the Ryder Cup!

Nope, they held a Ryder Cup style beauty contest as well and the winner is an empty field in Bavaria. The other contestants were existing golf courses and two of them actually pretty good (Greeneagle and Faldo's course). But the empty field had the advantage that it could offer Bernhard Langer a design job.

Ulrich

Then let's get Bernhard to have a bit of a conversation with Coore and Doak!

All Langer's work is done by European Golf Design

[Adrian_Stiff]

The sad fact is that the criteria for choosing venues these days seems to have little or nothing to do with history, architecture or match play...

Jud I am not sure. I think this is another case of what we all like on this site is not what the masses want. They want water infront of greens and stripes on the fairways. Progolf is target golf. Also when you talk about 'History' then its all plusses to the Belfry, no Ryder cup course can boast anymore.

[Ben Stephens]

My biggest beef is that the venues chosen in UK/Europe for a Ryder Cup more recently is a course designed by an American and suits the Americians more than the Europeans rather than a course designed to suit the Europeans such as – Valderrama, K Club, Celtic Manor and Gleneagles’ PGA Centenary (the Belfry was designed by Brits heavily influenced by the American golf course design style)

The best matchplay event on TV I saw in the noughties was the Walker Cup at RCD. The course demanded the players to play great shots which they did not disappoint.

I have devised a list of the countries that have bid for Ryder Cup in 2018 and the courses more likely to be chosen by 'marketing agencies' and other courses that 'real golfers' would choose but is more likely unable to provide the necessary facilities that is required to host a Ryder Cup.

FRANCE
More likely - Le Golf National
GCA ideal choice venues - Morfontaine/Chantilly/Le Touquet
Other potential nominees to make actual list - Les Bordes

GERMANY
More likely - New golf course
GCA ideal choice venues - Club Zur Vahr/Hamburger Falkenstein
Other potential nominees to make actual list - Gut Larchenhof/Sporting Club Berlin

THE NETHERLANDS
More likely – The Dutch (Monty or Sam’s course)
GCA ideal choice venues – Kennemer/Noordwijkse
Other potential nominees to make actual list - Gut Larchenhof/Sporting Club Berlin

PORTUGAL
More likely – Vilamoura Victoria
GCA ideal choice venues – Vilamoura (Old)/Praia del Rey
Other potential nominees to make actual list – Oitavos/Penha Longa/Monte Rei

SPAIN
More likely – New course in Madrid
GCA ideal choice venues – El Saler/Club de Campo Madrid
Other potential nominees to make actual list – El Prat/Valderrama

SWEDEN
More likely – Bro Hof Slot
GCA ideal choice venues – Ullna/Falsterbo
Other potential nominees to make actual list – PGA National (Kyle Phillips)/Barseback / Halmstad

[Ulrich Mayring]

For Germany there is no "more likely" option. The decision has been made to build a new course and that decision is final.

From the candidates, that were turned down, the GCA ideal choices would have been Greeneagle North and Sporting Club Berlin (Faldo). While Faldo's course certainly has a very English heathland feel to it, I would have loved to have it at Greeneagle. It's a "build it and they will come" project, done by two local amateurs and the result is stunning. It would be great to have the Ryder Cup there, just to see the Pros whince and whine for a change

Ulrich

[Dean Stokes]

The sad fact is that the criteria for choosing venues these days seems to have little or nothing to do with history, architecture or match play...

Jud I am not sure. I think this is another case of what we all like on this site is not what the masses want. They want water infront of greens and stripes on the fairways. Progolf is target golf. Also when you talk about 'History' then its all plusses to the Belfry, no Ryder cup course can boast anymore.

Adrian you get it. The Ryder Cup is business. Architecture does not matter. History barely matters. Tented villages, parking and spectator mounds are what counts. Please do not talk about the masses though - Mr. Ward will lecture you on how the masses eat at McDonalds and call it cuisine, so their opinion does not count

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

Put down the kool-aid and understand this -- I NEVER said the Ryder Cup is not about business and making $$.

What I did say was that reverting back to some sort of connection through the classic courses every now and then would not be a bad idea -- you need to wake up and smell the coffee -- the USGA did that with its selection of Merion for the 2013 US Open. An event which draws considerably more attendance and overall $ than any Ryder Cup site.

The USGA opted to go that route as a celebration of the 100th anniversary of Ouimet's win at TCC and at the same time it resurrects Merion into the picture after a 32-year absence.

The USGA could have easily gone to more user-friendly places such as Hazeltine or other such non-descript courses and simply cashed in.

So yes the architecture does matter -- the history does matter.

Just because the folks who run the Ryder Cup don't see it that way doesn't mean that people should not push for its inclusion every so often.

The folks who run golf should know its history and try to incorporate it into the game's future -- those who are carnival barkers looking to squeeze money out of every corner should be seen for what they are.

I previously opined that a number of top players have raved when classic courses were/used for events.

Dean, take off the cynical approach and look towards optimum outcomes that can combine $$ and golf's grand traditions. Otherwise, let's auction off everything and simply call the Ryder Cup the McDonald's Ryder Cup.

[Christoph Meister]

The German "Golf Magazin" (partner of Golf Digest) is presenting Germany's Ryder Cup course in its february 2010 issue: They are presenting a course designed by Himmel Golf Design (Thomas Himmel). Even after reading the text for three times it remains unclear to me whether it has been decided that the Ryder Cup course will be built by Himmel or if Himmel is just the favourite to be commissioned...

....But first of all the bigger step will be for Germany to actually get the Ryder Cup 2018 with Sweden certainly being the favourite...
(Sweden is nearer to Hamburg than Bavaria, anyway   ..)

The article in "Golf Magazin" stresses that the holes will have a "high risk reward, green television cameras will rarely be against the sun and holes 14 to 17 are the most sporty and dramatic holes"

More information about the proposed Ryder Cup Course by Himmel Golf Design can be found here:

http://www.golfhimmel.de/english/news.php

http://www.golfhimmel.de/english/a-x.php?news_nr=0&bild_nr=0

http://www.golfhimmel.de/english/a-x.php?news_nr=0&bild_nr=1

http://www.golfhimmel.de/english/a-x.php?news_nr=0&bild_nr=2

Greetings from Germany

Christoph

[Dean Stokes]

Matt,
What is kool-aid? I've never drank any of that? Is it good? As for getting up and smelling the coffee, I did that early this morning when I had to read from you that apparently I do not understand very much about golf industry technology or much about the Ryder Cup.

Did I EVER say that you do not understand that it is about business and making $$? No.

It would be nice for us golf architecture buffs to see the event go to a 'classic', but it wont! Why not enjoy it for what it is - a corporate outing between 24 of the best players in the world. Where's the Bollinger tent Old boy





 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Christoph,

as far as I know, Thomas Himmel was commissioned to do a routing before there were any concrete plans to host the Ryder Cup. This routing is just a piece of paper, it can and will be changed to meet the requirements of the Ryder Cup LLC. This redesign will be done by Bernhard Langer's practice. Hardly a surprising decision, what with Bernhard and brother Erwin Langer part of the jury. It will be interesting to see who gets the architectural credit in the end.

However, if Germany doesn't get the nod, then I predict the course will not be built at all. And that will really illustrate the point that the whole Ryder Cup process is driven by short-term profits.

We don't get the event? Then why build a golf course? We get the event? Then we'll build a monster, milk it for a few years and plough it over for housing afterwards.

Ulrich

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

You keep on throwing forward the tired and predictable yarns about golf selections being based on $$ and on the Joe and Jane Sixpacks that are out there. I understand that. Let's move with the program shall we.

The issue was about those at the top of the charts when site selections are made to think about not forgetting the classic connection to golf and how that can be done. I have no issue with money being a consideration -- no doubt the USGA included has done such a thing with the likes of Bethpage Black, Hazeltine and other such courses. They also made a wise decision -- a very wise one I might add -- by not forgetting the likes of a Merion and what that can mean for a new generation of golfers who have never seen such a revered place.

Dean, you stake out the position it will never happen -- really? I guess what the USGA did was out of character for those inclined to make only $$$ as the main way to go.

I am not naive to believe that classic designed courses will be the main focal point I do believe that those who do such selections need to be pushed / prodded to every once and awhile think about what golf is about and how the past can work so well with the future sites that are then determined.

By the way -- I do agree about passing the champagne around -- how fitting it would be if one time every 20 years a classic layout was part of the mixture.

[Adrian_Stiff]

When you think back to pre 1985 The Ryder Cup was near dead. 1981 at Walton Heath I think you could pay on the day to watch and the coverage on BBC was limited to bits inside the football and racing from Redcar, pre 81 stateside we knew nothing realling other that we read in the papers about what was going, the Ryder Cup's history was limited to what happened in 1957, our only win from 33 -85, Peter Alliss missing a putt a wentworth and the gracious concession by Jack to Tony Jacklin, there was no great history linked to a golf course.... Enter THE BELFRY and Seve popping it on the 10th, others going for it and going in the water, Payne Stewart having a few swishes at the 18th, American after American losing their singles, then in another year 89 when the Europeans did the same to let the USA get thedraw and Tom Kites's comments... Now theres the history. This site continues time after time to misunderstand that the golfing public love water. Yes the purist view is links or linkslike but it is a minority view, most people think highly of the K Club and I dont think that the course did anything to make a bad Ryder Cup, what you had and what you continue to see at most championship venues is Water at the 18th and that causes drama and drama puts bums on seats which fuels the golfing economy.

[Dean Stokes]

You know the more i think about it, one of the best sites for The Ryder Cup in the USA would be TPC Sawgrass. Not a classic I know, but a 'classic' matchplay course.

Many of the holes have risk reward that you probably wouldn't chance in strokeplay but that could really be had in matchplay. When there is no concern for shortsiding or two shot penalties you could really see some fireworks and exciting golf at this course.

Imagine how many matches would come down to the last three holes and provide nailbiting entertainment. Also great for viewing for the spectators, loads of parking, hotels and room for corporate America Had to go there, sorry Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

I love the cynical ploys you make. 

TPC / Sawgrass is really an odd and quite frankly an amusing choice.

It is far from anything that can be called a classic. Both sides of the pond are hellbent on chasing whoever throws forward the most $$ or its Euro equivalent.

Like I said before -- the USGA is a convenient whipping post on many subjects on this site -- they made the right call with Merion's return. I wish the folks at the top of the selection show for both the American and European side would see the benefit in doing a like-minded act every now and then. Simple as that.

[Christoph Meister]

Christoph,

as far as I know, Thomas Himmel was commissioned to do a routing before there were any concrete plans to host the Ryder Cup. This routing is just a piece of paper, it can and will be changed to meet the requirements of the Ryder Cup LLC. This redesign will be done by Bernhard Langer's practice. Hardly a surprising decision, what with Bernhard and brother Erwin Langer part of the jury. It will be interesting to see who gets the architectural credit in the end.

However, if Germany doesn't get the nod, then I predict the course will not be built at all. And that will really illustrate the point that the whole Ryder Cup process is driven by short-term profits.

We don't get the event? Then why build a golf course? We get the event? Then we'll build a monster, milk it for a few years and plough it over for housing afterwards.

Ulrich

Ulrich,

Why should they plough it over for housing after a few years? Rohrenfeld is in the middle of nowhere - who wants to live there? Also and unlike in the U.S. there have been rarely any examples of golf courses being ploughed over for housing in Germany....who says that Bernhard Langer will do the redesign - do you know anything I don't know?

Christoph

[Ulrich Mayring]

As you said, Rohrenfeld is in the middle of nowhere, so how are they supposed to sustain a high-end golf course? Maybe there are some pipe dreams of turning it into a golf resort, but I bet that foreclosure a few years after the Ryder Cup is already in the business plan. About the Langer redesign - how many golf architects are in the jury? Draw your own conclusions

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

As you said, Rohrenfeld is in the middle of nowhere, so how are they supposed to sustain a high-end golf course? Maybe there are some pipe dreams of turning it into a golf resort, but I bet that foreclosure a few years after the Ryder Cup is already in the business plan. About the Langer redesign - how many golf architects are in the jury? Draw your own conclusions

Ulrich

Sounds to me if this course is either in the right or the wrong place, if it will work as a Ryder Cup venue it will work for a golf course, it may work for neither. Seems crazy to build a course, invest millions to promote it, then scrap it. The investment into a Ryder Cup course is not about the three day take, its probaby a 15 year scheme.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, the Belfry was sold in 2005 and the new owners have scrapped all investments.

Not sure about the K-Club, but it appears they had legitimate business before the Ryder Cup.

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

Well, the Belfry was sold in 2005 and the new owners have scrapped all investments.

Not sure about the K-Club, but it appears they had legitimate business before the Ryder Cup.

Ulrich

I dont understand what you mean Ulrich.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I mean that places, that are blown up to Ryder Cup size, will run into financial difficulties once the circus leaves town. If there is no legitimate, local business to support the massive cost structure, then the only way to survive is by becoming a "destination" - but ask yourself: do you really think of the Belfry, when you think about a high-end golf destination?

Or, to come back to the German air castle: it's going to be in the middle of nowhere, so there is zero local business and as far as the "resort" pipe dream goes, it's in one of the least attractive parts of Bavaria. I don't see how they could survive for long beyond 2018.

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

I mean that places, that are blown up to Ryder Cup size, will run into financial difficulties once the circus leaves town. If there is no legitimate, local business to support the massive cost structure, then the only way to survive is by becoming a "destination" - but ask yourself: do you really think of the Belfry, when you think about a high-end golf destination?

Or, to come back to the German air castle: it's going to be in the middle of nowhere, so there is zero local business and as far as the "resort" pipe dream goes, it's in one of the least attractive parts of Bavaria. I don't see how they could survive for long beyond 2018.

Ulrich

I think you have this wrong Ulrich. These clubs bid for the Ryder Cup to promote themselves and raise their profile. The Belfry is definitely a high end golf destination and the clubs success has been born out of the four Ryder Cups its staged, possibly its green fee is elevated by as much as £40 above its true worth as a result of the association, The Belfry is very well used. £40 mutiplied by 40,000 rounds x by a price earning ratio of say 12 could easily result in valuation of that golf course assett alone of almost £20,000,000. The Belfry has excellent location with around 30,000,000 potential customers living within two hours with great motorway connections. This site in Bavaria seems wrong from the outset by what you say and if its not going to work afterwards, what would be the point in the investment.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Here's an article about Olympic sites that illustrates my point:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/after-the-party-what-happens-when-the-olympics-leave-town-901629.html

Like the Olympics, the Ryder Cup can be a boon, but only if the venue has legitimate business of that size on its own. I am not under the impression that the Belfry is doing very well. It was sold in 2005 to new owners, hardly something you do with a cash cow. And the new owners have since scrapped all renovations and said that the economic downturn has hit them badly. Kinda not the thing you'd expect to hear from a high-end resort in the class of, supposedly, Gleneagles.

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

Here's an article about Olympic sites that illustrates my point:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/after-the-party-what-happens-when-the-olympics-leave-town-901629.html

Like the Olympics, the Ryder Cup can be a boon, but only if the venue has legitimate business of that size on its own. I am not under the impression that the Belfry is doing very well. It was sold in 2005 to new owners, hardly something you do with a cash cow. And the new owners have since scrapped all renovations and said that the economic downturn has hit them badly. Kinda not the thing you'd expect to hear from a high-end resort in the class of, supposedly, Gleneagles.

Ulrich

Ulrich - The higher class destination is more likely impacted greater in these economic downturns. The little cheap muni is for poor people and when money gets tight there are more poor people, cheap and cheerfull can do well. Gleneagles will be having a tough time, there are not more customers at this moment in time I expect you can do deals at the moment. I cant remember who owned TB pre 2005 and who owns in now but selling something or buying something does not always equal a buisness doing badly. The Belfry might be unloved on GCA but its on most average UK golfers "I want to play there", its not crazy expensive and its accessable.

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