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Ronald Montesano

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Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« on: January 09, 2010, 09:54:37 AM »
On the concurrent Tobacco Road--An Alternate View, the question of drainage issues on some of Mike Strantz's courses arose.  Contributors have indicated that Tobacco Road and True Blue have retained quite a quantity of water during some of their visits.  It is true that some of the visits/rounds took place during extreme weather seasons, but my plodding mind still brought forth this thread.

I'll begin with a polemic:  did Strantz understand how to properly set up a course for drainage?  Why do I ask this?  I'm not he and I wasn't on site when he was building his wonderful courses.  If you can point to certain holes and say "this should have been done, rather than this," wonderful.  If you can contribute "he did this, this and this correctly and this enigmatic thing still happened," also wonderful.

Next question:  who does drainage better than anyone else?  I would imagine that supplies are consistent across the industry, so it comes down to technique and other factors.  Architects may recuse themselves.

Onward!
Coming in 2024
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Philippe Binette

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2010, 10:13:45 AM »
the master of drainage: SAND

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 10:23:58 AM »
Phillipe,

Nice snappy answer, but not really a good one. Not all sites have sand.  Even those that have that advantage often need remedial drainage and it would be mistake to do none as part of the design.

Ronald,

The answer probably wouldn't be anyone typically discussed on this forum.  The previous generation of architects like the Dick Phelps, Dick Nugents and others took a far more sophisticated approach to drainage than many of the gca's who got famous in the 90's for focusing on artwork, etc.  Its part of the left brain, right brain mindset and I think you will find that most of the more artistic designers are certainly less fluent in speaking drainage, unless they have someone to cover that for them.

I talk with nearly every gca about their drainage philosophy and many aren't even familiar with the "rational formula" or SCS curves or any of that.  As a result, many underestimate the power of water.  I asked one fairly famous gca about how they size pipe and it was "we start with a 4", move up to a 6" in the next fw, and then maybe go 8" somewhere and 10" pipe at the bottom of the runs.  I can tell you that a drainage engineer would have upsized all those pipes, perhaps too much for golf courses, but at the same time, most gca's don't study the drainage patterns enough to really size pipe.  Its a function of how many acres drain to a critical spot, how fast it rains and how fast the soil drains and a decision on just how big a rain you think you need to handle, and how often you can keep the course closed as a tradeoff for saving money on grading and pipe size.

Having been trained by Tim Nugent's dad and the late Ken Killian, I like to think I have retained a lot of that knowledge and my courses drain better than most, but there are probably better drainage designers out there than me.  But I have gotten a fair share of commissions by taking clients out to play in the rain!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Philippe Binette

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 10:44:47 AM »
I remember seeing a quote from Pete Dye (I think) saying building a golf course is making drainage look good.

To do drainage effectively you have to first understand the natural drainage pattern of a site (both above and below ground) and try not to design against it.

Then you can go with the engineering approach, which resulted in normal fairly simple mathematics (depending if you use the rational technique or not). But if your system relies solely on catch basins and pipes (which can be seen on any course with mounds on each side of the fairway) you are likely to get some wet spots no matter what. Some micro mistakes during construction (a catch basin 5 feet too far left or right, uneven finishing etc) will lead to wet or soggy spots.

If you combine good surface drainage, leading the water away from the most used playing areas, to underground drainage, you'll end up with better results. Basically, if you can lead water toward the first 100 yards off the back tee, if that area gets wet, it doesn't affect play much. If your water collect a 220 to 260 yards off the back tee... well, you're in trouble and you won't have enough catch basins to deal with it....

All that is good until you get in the environmental regulations or if your golf course is used as a retention system for the residential area around it.

One idea that I've rarely seen now: Oakmont ditches... that was a good strategy, probably to prevent water from one fairway to immediately run to the next below because of the clayish site there.

Basically, design with a sharp mind on the technical problems, it often lead to better solutions than what you had before.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 11:00:09 AM »


The EYE

Melvyn

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 11:06:13 AM »
Phillipe,

I think we agree on many points. As to a basic philosophy, there is the:

"Pick it up where ever your design happens to block it" theory and

The "road engineering theory" where each hole is raised, or the surrounds lowered, to make sure no overland flow crosses critical areas, just as no uphill drainage ever hits a road - it is collected in a ditch at the side of the road and piped under. In those cases, there isn't mucn need to a lot of basins in the fw.  

There is also the "Zone Drainage" theory, which recognizes that sheet flow turns to concentrated flow at about 300 feet.  In reality, there are charts for that and its a matter of keeping water velocity under 5 feet per second after turf establishent, and if you have no straw blanket/liners during grow in for erosion control, under 3 Ft per Sec while the soil is bare during grow in to reduce problems.  Sometimes, a wooded site means you prefer to pick up the drainage inside the hole perimeter to avoid taking out trees.  And then picking it up in less crtical areas between LZ's is a great idea.  If allowing 250 foot maximum run, the catch basins in the fw would be spaced about 500 feet apart, which would only be three per tyical fw.

The last theory is to accept the pipes in the fw, and then grade for the design you want, since its usually an easy matter to add a few extra catch basins to pick up small areas.  As Phillipe notes, construction must be good and gravel or sand should be placed well around the CB, because the inlet areas can tend to get soggy if poor construction.  

Of course, I think most gca's also undersize catch basins, which are the limiting factor in drain system capacity inadvertantly.  In the desire to keep them small and less visible, they are often not engineered to take the water that will flow into them, and then the water sits around the basin getting it soggy, a situation from which it never recovers.

While many here extoll the supposed Golden Age theorys of long swales, the facts still remain that in the old days,those long swales got and stayed wet, just as they do today and that those courses have added many, many french drains and cb's over the years.  As I tell superintendents, "you won't add drainage every year, just the years you work here."  

And subsurface drainage is really a funny animal.  You find it, you add drain tiles to pick it up, going well beyond the visible problem, and then next year, it shows up another 30 yards past your last tile!

Melvyn,

Also a snappy answer, but in reality, those of us build golf courses have learned to NEVER rely on the eye to check grades.  The eye plays tricks, whereas the surveyors level doesn't.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 11:19:08 AM »


Jeff

The Castle Course at St Andrews may disprove your point ???

Sorry mate, but as they say at Westminster 'THE EYES HAVE IT' ;)

Melvyn

Steve Lang

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 11:28:31 AM »
 8)  Jeff,

If there are any experts using piping networks, french drains etc., .. I'd like to know if you've seen any designs provide for cleaning out and long term maintenance.

I've seen some courses in clayey soils that drain very well for several years and then after time lose it..  I believe the drains get plugged up with fines and given likely undersizing, can't do their intended job long term..  when we design underground piping systems for manufacturing sites, there are specs for distances between cleanouts and angles that can be used and manholes at sharp turns etc..

Also do you use geotextiles for wrapping drain pipes or is that seen as too expensive?


  
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Norbert P

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 12:43:40 PM »
 
  Who is the master?

Dr. Karl von Terzaghi was the master but he's an ODG now.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 04:15:20 PM »
Steve,

I stilll use the engineering standard of having a manhole every 300-500 feet on a mainline for cleanout, but that does seem to be a lost art in gca. I also design for "self cleansing" pipe velocities, but in my informal survey of gca's, most don't seem familiar with the term and most builders seem a bit oblivious, as well.

Melvyn,

You don't explain how the Castle course disproved my point.  I know its flat ground turned into sloping ground, but not sure of your exact point. My point is that  unless you have ever tried to "eyeball" positive slope on rollling ground, without the benefit of a surveyors level, you probably don't know just how often the eye can be fooled.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 04:19:26 PM »
Seth Raynor was pretty good at designing surface and subsurface drainage.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 06:32:33 PM »
Jeff,

to me I felt the castle course was a hillside with a 8% to 10% slope turn into a bumpy field

Ron Farris

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 07:06:08 PM »
An interesting subject.
I recently had a project where drainage was a big issue.
I consulted with a Professional Engineer who specialized in drainage.
The club wanted some sort of gaurantee that the drainage would work.
The Specialist to me to go to hell, that he didn't know anyone who would sign off on the project drainage.
They could make recommendation, design according to water flow and volume, and all the other issues aforementioned by Mr. J Brauer, but to guarantee was out of the question.

Pete Dye project managers have put more pipe in the ground than any group that I know, but I don't know a tremendous amount of people outside the Dye tree.


Ryan Farrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2010, 08:31:05 PM »
Nature is the master. Surface drainage. The fewer Catch basins the better!

Ian Andrew

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2010, 09:22:29 PM »
Kelly Ami out of Montreal.

They survey everything and create very site specific details depending on soil conditions.
I have yet to find anyone yet who knows as much as they do about drainage.

I work with them a lot in the renovation end of things and they continue to impress me.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2010, 09:33:53 PM »

Philippe

You said “to me I felt the castle course was a hillside with a 8% to 10% slope turn into a bumpy field” yet the land was rather flat and I saw no hill prior to the work starting – see attached photos pre the start of the work

 

I also remember reading, not certain if it was here but someone said that the course may be prone to move towards the sea with some excessive rain. Would that be described as an effective drainage system, removing the water and would also resolve some of the green problems in the process. Or is it down to overcomplicated ground work that has to destroy before reconstruction can begin.

TOC when under Old Tom was well able to withstand many of the rainstorms. He said it was down to the cultivation of worms, yet after he retired Hamilton killed all the worms, the course started to pool water and for a period from 1905-12. I believe the R&A were unhappy with the quality of TOC during this time. Perhaps a lesson could be learnt that not all modern ideas are best. The need I feel is to look for land ‘Fit for Purpose’. Money will not always be free to obtain as it once was and large budgets will I believe be for the occasional project, complicated equals expensive and is not the right way to go. We need to learn lessons from the past and work with a combination of new and old.

Anyway Philippe still can’t see this hillside you are talking about as the Castle Course was built on farmland.

Melvyn 

Gary Slatter

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 06:10:26 AM »
Nature is the master. Surface drainage. The fewer Catch basins the better!
I agree with Ryan and Melvyn.  I really dislike catch basins and drains, far too many in play on modern courses!  What is their life expectancy - 5 years?

gravity (mother nature) and the eye are key.  You can gravity in action at White Witch in Jamaica. None of the drain pipes are stretching as the course moves downhill.  Proper pre-engineering could probably have resulted in a less resistant routing.

The Castle started on a sloping piece of field, 8% average, naturally drained farm (?).
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Carl Rogers

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 06:51:18 AM »
No mention of bunker drainage yet??

Jeff, Could would you supply us a little primer, please or give us a reference?

Is there an expected life span to a bunker drain?

How did the ODG's drain a bunker?  Did each have their own method?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 08:36:16 PM by Carl Rogers »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 07:10:11 AM »

Hi Gary

Happy New Year

As for the Castle on a slope of 8% - I wonder. Attached photo of the place prior to the construction process 8% seems generous but it certainly is not a hill

                   

As for worms and the attention they give the soil, I believe the old article from 1902 still has a place on our modern courses.



Melvyn

Philippe Binette

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 08:51:23 AM »
OK 8% to 10% is a little strong...

but I'm pretty sure the land has at least a 3% to 5% tilt toward the water (just by looking at the surrounding property) which in this location, look fairly flat. bassically what I mean is that the natural drainage pattern at the Castle course must have been easy to understand and was definitely working (surface0 before the construction of the course.

The course was turn in a faux links full of bumps and mounds so they definitely had to work the drainage there, big time.

By the way, a 2% to 3% tilt is only noticeable by an experimented eye. I remember at Sagebrush, anytime we were not using a laser to do tee base, the shaper would come out and say, that's flat.... put the laser on: 3 % slope toward the lake

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 09:07:51 AM »
The tilt of the Castle course is unquestionable. They haven't altered the height of the road at the top of the site, or of the cliffs, and the latter is a hundred feet or so lower than the former. QED.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike_Young

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 10:03:47 AM »
Which auto mechanic is the master at changing spark plugs ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 10:08:04 AM »
Well, Melvin and Phillipe confirm that looking at something by eye is questionable for determining slope and Phillipe gives an example that jiives with my experience.  In either case, "by eye" doesn't make sense to me as an answer to drainage unless you are looking at an area that puddles and you put a catch basin there....

Carl,

Great historic question on how did the old guys drain bunkers! I have to say I really don't know but suspect they all had their different theories.  I have rebuilt old greens and seen lots of different layering methods but think most bunkers I have seen had seen tiles added over the years.  I suspect that the used a big gravel sump (hole dug and filled with gravel) or the traditional french drain, albeith with vitrified clay pipe intead of the current pvc. I even recall laying a VCP drain, with gaps to allow water in, in 1974 as a summer employee at the Glencoe Golf Club!

I have replaced bunker sand due to clogged drains in less than 3 years.  They can stop working that quickly if there are no bunker liners, much water drains into the bunker, and the bunker sand is of a particular type.  I don't know that there is a better pipe answer, though, other than having a method to open up the drain at the bottom to more quickly release the water. I put a solid cap on a riser at the bottom of the bunker so that they can empty standing water out.

Its when the water stands at the bottom and the soils and fines collect that the drains plug.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 11:17:10 AM »

The current course must raise some problems for the drainage due to the helter shelter design or was that what swallowed the entire construction budget.

Before



&

Afterwards



Jeff, when I refer to The Eye, like common sense I believe that should be the first line of approach. Common sense alas is thrown out the window at times when money is not the constraining factor. However trying to manufacture a St Andrews Links course on the current Castle site proves a total lack of common sense.

The Castle Course is NOT a St Andrews Course but a course built on the extreme of St Andrews city limits to generate money and certainly IMHO not the Spirit of the Game. Fake is fake no matter how much you dress it up and for me it cheapens the name of St Andrews. Spoilt for choice, perhaps I am, but extremely fortunate all the same so please excuse me if I do not like our visitors to be persuaded that this is a traditional St Andrews course linked to the great names of the past, because it is not. It is what it is a fake and a carbuncle.

Melvyn 


Ian Larson

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Re: Drainage Experts: Who is the master?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 11:25:48 AM »
Melvin,

what did the Castle Course land look like before it was tilled repeatedly for farming? Are you saying it's typical for land like this to be naturally flat next to the windy sea?

Worms....that's the answer. Very reliable and consistent. They should be on payrolls.

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