[Jason Topp]

I spent the Holidays in Northern California and had the pleasure of playing Pasatiempo with Mrs. Huckaby and Pierracci, MPCC Dunes with Mr. Huntley and Harding Park with a close childhood friend.

Pasatiempo has been discussed at length on this board.  I'm not sure I have anything to add to the discussion.  This was the first time I had seen the course after renovations had been completed and the course remains terrific and in great condition even at this wet time of year.

The MPCC Dunes course is a wonderful test of golf.  In particular, it features one of the strongest set of par threes around.  Several new back tees have been added in anticipation of potentially moving the Crosby to the Dunes course in the future.

Bob gave me a tour of the Shore course.  I must be one of those people that needs to play a course to get a feel for it but I sure wanted to pull out my clubs.  One really appreciates that the club went to the expense of capping the fairways with sand, leaving a firm playing surface in the middle of winter.  I also understand that the 18th hole will be changed but I did not take the time to study the drawings in the clubhouse to understand the changes.

Harding Park was also an enjoyable experience.  I played with a good friend and we had a spirited match.  One of the pleasures of municipal golf is getting paired up with a wide variety of characters and we had the good fortune to be paired with an enthusiastic 8th grader who has the rough edges of an outstanding game, was excited about the day and was a terrific conversationalist.

Despite the enjoyable experience, I was very surprised and disappointed with the course.  The bones of a very good golf course are there.  I liked the par threes quite a bit and also liked the variety of the par fours and fives - some birdie opportunities sprinkled between many tough holes.  The trees are majestic and the setting fantastic. 

Overall, the layout seemed fine to me (although I would widen several fairways to bring ravines and preferred approach angles into play) but I was shocked at its condition.  For $16 million, one would expect that something would have been done to firm up the fairways.  Much of the time the ground was more liquid than solid.  The greens were also in suprisingly poor condition even though it appeared that most of the work on the course focused on improving the greens and their surrounds.

Perhaps it is impossible to have a course that is anything but a mud bog on that site.  I'm sure the course is quite enjoyable during drier portions of the year.  Nonethless, given the setting, the history and the expense poured into the course, it is a pity that the results could not have turned out better.

[PThomas]

totally agree with your thoughts re Harding.....a disappointment, esp with all the $$$$$$ spent on it.....


...although, i'd rather be playing anywhere in the mud vs. sitting on my ass in snow covered, very cold Chicagoland

[Sean Leary]

I spent the Holidays in Northern California and had the pleasure of playing Pasatiempo with Mrs. Huckaby and Pierracci,

I bet Tom was pissed that he didn't get to play..

[David_Tepper]

Jason -

I played Harding yesterday and was disappointed with how soft the course was. There was mud on my ball after every shot. I hate playing "winter rules," but yesterday we had no choice. 

I don't think you would find any of the SF Bay Area courses (certainly not the public ones) in noticeably better shape over the winter months. I played for years at the Presidio GC and, after the first good rainfall of the season, the course stayed soft till April.

One of the disadvantages of tree-lined fairways is they keep the fairway turf from getting very much direct sunlight during the winter months. The OC Lake Course and many of the older SF Bay Area suffer in the same way.

December was a very cold month here and that has not helped local turf conditions either.

DT       

[Kalen Braley]

Jason and David,

That sounds like the standard winter conditions at places like Lake Chabot and Tilden as well.  When I lived in the area I always tried to get out on courses near the bay because at least there were usually few trees around to get more sunlight as well as more exposure to the afternoon winds even though they aren't nearly as strong/consistent as during the summer months.

Either way, its better than here in SLC with 3-4 inches of snow still on the ground!   

[Jason Topp]

Jason and David,

That sounds like the standard winter conditions at places like Lake Chabot and Tilden as well.  When I lived in the area I always tried to get out on courses near the bay because at least there were usually few trees around to get more sunlight as well as more exposure to the afternoon winds even though they aren't nearly as strong/consistent as during the summer months.

Either way, its better than here in SLC with 3-4 inches of snow still on the ground!   

Definitely better than Minnesota.  I am not sure it has gotten much above zero since I returned.

[Marty Bonnar]

I spent the Holidays in Northern California and had the pleasure of playing Pasatiempo with Mrs. Huckaby

Jason,
okay it's early but that one will be way up there when Tyop of the Year for GCA 2010 is announced...

Glad you had such a good time with the NorCal boys. They're quite the most gracious hosts.

cheers,
FBD.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I played the back nine of Tilden on Saturday morning and it was a muddy mess.  I've decided not to return there for the next few months.

I don't think Harding puts sand on the fairways like neighboring OC does.

Firm fairways this time of year are in short supply in the Bay Area.  I played Monarch about a month ago and it was great. 

[Jason Topp]

I spent the Holidays in Northern California and had the pleasure of playing Pasatiempo with Mrs. Huckaby

Jason,
okay it's early but that one will be way up there when Tyop of the Year for GCA 2010 is announced...

Glad you had such a good time with the NorCal boys. They're quite the most gracious hosts.

cheers,
FBD.

It took two posts for me to finally recognize my typo!  I'll leave it as is for posterity. 

[Bill_McBride]

I'm suspecting you were thinking "the Messrs H & P...."

And a fine pair to be paired with I might add!

[John Handley]

"I don't think you would find any of the SF Bay Area courses (certainly not the public ones) in noticeably better shape over the winter months"

At the Cal Club, we are fortunate to have a fantastic golf course and this is a major reason for our recent renovation.  The golf course is in absolutely brilliant shape.  The greens are perfect and the course is dry and fast.  Not as fast as the summer, but for our "winter" we couldn't ask for anything better.  Thomas Bastis and crew are to be commended.

Mike Keiser played the golf course last week and left very impressed.  If any of you guys get to San Francisco, the Cal Club is a MUST. 

[David_Tepper]

John H. -

"At the Cal Club, we are fortunate to have a fantastic golf course and this is a major reason for our recent renovation."

I think you have the cart before the horse. Isn't the recent renovation the major reason why the Cal Club is now a fantastic course?

DT

[Tom Huckaby]

That is one of the great tyops of all time...and does indeed need to remain especially given I played like my wife that round.

 

Of course a great time was had by all though - that likely goes without saying.

As for conditions, no surprise Harding was a bog... David T. is right, most Bay Area courses are in winter.  But it does beat being covered by snow, and yes, some are indeed better than others.  I was pretty impressed with the conditions at Pasatiempo.

[Marty Bonnar]

Seeing as how you played the last time we met, I was thinking more like Mrs Huckaby.........YOUR MOTHER!!!!

Just kidding, mate as I seem to remember you and Huntley - rather politely and somewhat cheerily - taking me to the cleaners.

cheers,
FBD.

[JSPayne]

My my haven't we all gotten to be quite the picky bunch.....

I remember as a kid being thrilled to just be able to get out on the course, no matter what the time of year or condition. Heck...the only tournament I won in high school was in the rain! I even went back this year and played a course from my childhood that was in literally HORRIBLE condition (bare dirt on 1/3 of the greens), yet I still paid full price (even though 90% of the time now I play comped) and had a good time.....simply for the nostalgia and the sheer quirky fun of the holes.

I wonder if we haven't all gotten a little spoiled over time.....especially by the caliber of courses often talked and dreamed about on these threads.

And I wonder if it's threads, and 19th hold grill discussions, like these that cause supers like me, who are having their budgets hacked left and right, to pull our hair out and wonder how we're ever supposed to satisfy the daily fee golfer when their standards have gotten so high that a bit of mud on the ball or cart path restrictions in winter causes them to not want to come back out again for 3-4 months. It's no wonder the majority of us are having such a hard time finding revenues..........

P.S. This is a bit tongue in cheek as I do agree that $16 million is more than enough to put into a golf course such that it should be more playable year-round, even in foggy, damp, tree-lined SF......but other daily fee courses were brought into the discussion and I mainly speak for them......and me

[Kevin_Reilly]

I don't hold it against the staff at Tilden (a course I've played literally hundreds of times over the last decade...more than any course in the Bay Area including two private places where I am a member) that it is a muddy swampy mess, but the fact is that it is a muddy swampy mess right now and I'd rather play with my college friends at Monarch or Metro where the turf might be wet, but at least it isn't muddy and swampy.  I'm a big fan of Tilden...just not this time of year!

[PThomas]

i 'd MUCH rather play Presidio than Harding

if they could do at Presidio what they did at Cal Club.....

[Jason Topp]

My my haven't we all gotten to be quite the picky bunch.....


P.S. This is a bit tongue in cheek as I do agree that $16 million is more than enough to put into a golf course such that it should be more playable year-round, even in foggy, damp, tree-lined SF......but other daily fee courses were brought into the discussion and I mainly speak for them......and me

JSPayne:

I understand your sentiments fully.  I would happily play almost any course in the mud, but after spending $16 million and charging $135 I expect the product to be pretty good year round.  I originally titled the thread "$16 million . . . . where did it go" but changed it while writing the original post. 

[JLahrman]

I wouldn't mind bringing this one back up, seeing as I'm a relatively recent transplant spending my first full winter in the Bay Area, and my only 2010 resolution is to get back out on the golf course more after playing my all-time low number of rounds in a year in 2009.

What courses are recommended for this time of year in the Bay Area?  Should they be the windier ones by the bay (Metro), or are the courses east of the Berkeley hills recommended?  I'm closest to Tilden but I do understand that it is extremely muddy there this time of year.  And so as not to sound like I'm part of the picky bunch...I'm certainly willing to slog through the wetness this time of year - after spending most of my life in the Midwest I'm ecstatic to be out at all in January.  I'm just wary of conditions that go beyond soft wet grass to the point where golfers are leaving deep muddy footprints.  I'll make it up to Tilden by hitting the range there and playing there once spring/dry season rolls around.

Thanks all.

[David_Tepper]

Jason -

Did you ever play Harding before the renovation? Believe me, the difference (for the better) between how the course was and how it is now is HUGE. In the old days, it was not uncommon to find half a dozen or more temp greens at Harding during the winter months.

Joel -

Some of the better draining public courses in the Bay Area are the newer, relatively tree-less ones. They include the Metropolitan, Monarch Bay, Rooster Run and Poppy Ridge. Boundary Oaks, the Walnut Creek muni, also drains well. The problem is most of these courses are susceptible to early morning frost delays in the winter.

DT

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I would also add San Geronimo, although after a good rain there's gully, or depression, that runs across the fairways of #1, 3, 4, and 5 that fills up with water and actually can become a creek.  Other than that it's usually pretty well-drained if i recall, and definitely worth playing.

[Kalen Braley]

JL,

Like I mentioned before, the courses that are more exposed to wind and sun you are going to have much better luck with.  A few ones I'd try on the public side is Metropolitan, Monarch Bay, Delta View, and maybe even Shoreline Links.

[Tom Huckaby]

Joel - this is also going to turn on how much you want to spend and how far you want to drive.

Cinnabar Hills in rural San Jose is immaculate, but expensive.
Both Bayonet and Black Horse drain wonderfully, but are in Monterey and are also expensive.
All David mention work well..same for Kalen...go farther way and there are others, for sure.  But in general, one does pay for good winter-time conditions one way or the other.

Close to you and cheap?  Metro would be the best (and maybe only) answer - though I'd also try Callippe Preserve in Pleasanton.

My experience with San Geronimo has differed from Wayne's.. I have seen quagmires there.  But I have not been there in several years.

TH

[JLahrman]

Thanks all, that's a good list for me.  I've played a few of those, and there are several I haven't seen as well.

[Jason Topp]

Jason -

Did you ever play Harding before the renovation? Believe me, the difference (for the better) between how the course was and how it is now is HUGE. In the old days, it was not uncommon to find half a dozen or more temp greens at Harding during the winter months.


DT

David - no I did not.    I have no doubt it improved a lot.  Nonetheless, it would seem to me that $16 million would buy a lot of sand and would allow one to complete the task.  Of course that is just the perpective of a golfer and not someone who actually undertakes such projects.

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