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Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #425 on: February 08, 2010, 08:27:17 PM »
Here are another couple more articles, this time from 1912. Spring Lake must have been one of the early courses with a modern irrigation system.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #426 on: February 08, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »
Wasn't Willie Horton in prison when that course was designed or didn't he kill someone after laying it out?   I'm getting confused.  ;)

Seriously, I fear we're getting off-track here;  the 18 holes at Spring Lake were ready by spring of 1911 meaning the had to have been designed and constructed and seeded months prior.  Robinson was still at Atlantic City til the end of 1910, not to take anything away from him but the timelines don't seem to fit for him having a role in that course.

Re: Spring Lake...I don't have a copy of GAIA:ISAC sad to say...can someone quote exactly what Thomas himself wrote about his role there?

I also had an article about the genesis of the course that appeared some months back in one of those NJ Met magazines, but I think I tossed it in my recent move.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #427 on: February 08, 2010, 09:27:51 PM »
1908-1909 - Atlantic City is redesigned by HH Barker; Will Robinson is resident pro.

1911-1912 - Spring Lake adds a second nine in 1911. Redesigns and expands the golf course in 1912. Robinson is resident pro.

Spring to Autumn 1912 - Pickering and Wilson involved in the construction of the East course at Merion. The course formally open 9/12/1912.

November/December 1912 - The Merion crew (likely led by Pickering) constructs the new Haddon CC design by Alex Findlay.

December 16, 1912 - Wilson writes Oakley mentioning they are planning on building a second Merion golf course.

February 22, 1913 - It is announced Geist is organizing a new golf club in Atlantic City. Several site are under consideration (AC newspaper).

April 1913 - American Golfer reports a new course will be constructed at Absecon, NJ.
 
April 18, 1913 - Travis wins the Lakewood tournament.

May 1913 - Work begins on the new Seaview course.

May 13, 1913 - Wilson writes Oakley that he has just laid seed for the second Merion course.

June 1913 - An Atlantic City newspaper reports on the new course began in May. EK Bisphman and Bernard Nichols were recently in town and gave advice on they layout. Geist, Bisphman and Nichols are the prime movers in the establishment of the club. [Bisphman had recently redesigned Philadelphia CC with the help of Travis. Geist was a member of PCC. Nichols was the pro at Whitemarsh Valley, where Geist was president. Nichols was involved in the redesign of Whitemarsh.] Will Robinson was in charge of laying out Seaview and he sought the opinion of experts.  

June 7, 1913 - HS Colt spends one week in Philadelphia and reportedly visits Seaview.

August 1913 - Atlantic City newspaper reports the new Seaview will not have any parallel holes and the site is blessed with good sandy black loam. The site was formerly a truck garden. A number of experts have laid out the golf course and Will Robinson is in charge. Selected grass will be sown (Carters?).

September 1913 - The course is being rushed to completion with the help of corp of workmen. The greens are sown and the course should be ready May 30, 1914.

October 1913 - Carters advertises that Seaview as one of their projects.

October 1913 - Piper & Oakley visit Philadlephia as guest of Wilson - there is no mention of the Seaview project.

October/November 1913 - The second Merion course opens for play.

October 1913 - William Evans reports the property was purchased in the Spring and that 50 to 100 men (and 20 team of horses) have busy building the course. The grass seed is imported (Carters?). All the greens are piped and the greens are already turfed. Hugh Wilson is Geist's right hand man and he has laid out the new Seaview course. This is the first mention of Wilson being associated with Seaview.

November 21, 1913 - Wilson writes Oakley and mentions Seaview for the first time, although not be name. He uses the term 'they' to describe who is actively involved. Four greens on the East course at Merion have to be rebuilt.

November 25, 1913 - Oakley recommends the Division of Irrigation.

January 1914 - A hurricane damages the the four or five holes on the lowest point on the property. Reportedly work is taking place to repair the damage and engineers are called in to address the flooding problem.

February 14, 1914 - 54 acres on higher ground are purchased and four new holes are laid out to replace the four holes damaged by the storm.

February 28, 1914 - The four new holes are being constructed. A big force of experts in seeding and preparing the ground will arive early next week (Carters?)

March 16, 1914 - Wilson writes Oakley. Geist wants to reclaim 30 to 50 acres of marshland which he wished to use for the course. He had tried to get local advice but it had been a dismal failure.

March 20, 1914 - Oakley suggests Mr. Fortier of the Division of Irrigation.

April 28, 1914 - A newspaper reports the course will be in play this season.

June 28, 1914 - The course will open July 1. Robinson will take charge of the course. The course is in perfect condition; Robinson & Wilson have been complimented for their choice for the greens. The first foursome is Geist, Robinson, McDermott and Risely.

July 1914 - A newspaper report very similar to William Evans article from October the year before (old truck garden, gently undulating, sandy loam, watering system, etc). Hugh Wilson built the course.

August 2, 1914 - Washington Post article repeats the fact from previous articles.

August 1914 - The Greenkeepers Association of America hold their meeting at Seaview. William Connelan is the president.

October 18, 1914 - A big article in the Philadelphia Inquirer goes into great detail about the golf course and Geist's thoughts on the project. There is no mention of a golf architect.

November 1914 - It is announced the formal opening of the course will be in January. Robinson eagles the 4th hole.

December 6, 1914 - Joe Bunker announces Hugh Wilson has stepped down as chairman of the green committee at Merion. Bunker says the Wilson constructed the two Merion courses, and before the first course was built Wilson visited all the great courses in Great Britain and America. He has the same mistaken information as William Evans. Bunker also claims Wilson laid out the new Seaview course.

January 1915 - Pickering constructing Altwold CC (Findlay design). It is mentioned he constructed Seaview.

January 3, 1915 - Verdant Greene writes about the upcoming grand opening of Seaview. The quality and condition of the turf has been a major emphasis of this course. The greens are compared to GCGC. The holes in the marshland have been abandoned. Greene emphasizes Geist in this article. There is no mention of a designer or designers.

January 9, 1915 - Seaview GC formally opens. The following month the course is featured in four major American golf magazines. None of the articles mentions an architect or architects.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #428 on: February 08, 2010, 09:48:02 PM »
Tom,

I love it!

You're the only person I know who could simultaneously argue that HH Barker laid out about 50 courses across the country between train rides and pro tournaments in 1910 while simultaneously asserting that Hugh Wilson couldn't have laid out a course two hours from his home during a six month period because he was too busy laying out a single course a few minutes from his home and yet fail to see the inconsistent double-standard you're applying.  

Why do you assume that HH Barker could stop a speeding bullet in his teeth yet don't give Wilson credit for enough tenacity and wiles to extricate himself from the phone booth?

As that commercial says, "priceless".  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:51:28 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #429 on: February 08, 2010, 10:04:11 PM »
Ah, why are we discussing the architect of Spring Lake? I thought this thread was about the minimal bunkering of Merion in 1915 or perhaps the addendum of Seaview's origins.

Is Spring Lake's architectural origins now the subject because Mr MacWood thinks he may have one-upped someone research-wise? If so, that figures.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #430 on: February 08, 2010, 10:10:31 PM »
Michael:

The real answer to your #428 is because Tom MacWood cannot bring himself to actually admit what he is really up to on this website and for years now. He not only can't bring himself to admit it, he can't even bring himself to acknowledge and respond to serious queries from any of us on it. As I've said numerous times, I think that is a real shame, because I think he really does have something very interesting and important to present if only he would be honest about it and admit it.

Just watch, he will not even acknowledge this post intelligently---I almost guarantee it.

I've been invited to a real GCA/history pow-wow in the woods around a campfire in coastal Georgia by the incomparable Paul Cowley (all we need to bring is shovels, rakes and Machetes and perhaps a single change of diapers). You can come too. I have a few others in mind. It willl not disappoint, I guarantee it. If I offered to transport Tom MacWood down there free of charge for that do you think he would even deign to respond to that? I'll make book he wouldn't and won't. ;)

There's only on thing I can't abide by in life and that's those evasive intellectual snobs who can't even come close to six steps from the corner of backing up the things they say and imply. Most of the time you can tell who they are because for whatever the reason they never even show up, of course the computer excepted!  :(
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:29:10 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #431 on: February 08, 2010, 10:24:26 PM »
Tom MacWood,

This article from August 1910 that you posted above is certainly an interesting one.




Besides Samuel Heebner being head of the Green Committee, which is at least some circumstantial evidence supporting the Thomas/Heebner involvement, the first nine holes of the new 18 hole course are already open, and another article in March of 1911 states the full course is ready for play.

How again does that give street cred to Robinson's architectural chops since he wasn't even at the course until sometime early that year and the planning and construction began way back to at least 1909?

Or was it the incredible addition of 600 yards to that pre-existing course in 1912 that gave mogul Clarence Geist the brainfar...storm that he was going to spend his life's fortune building his personal monument by delegating creative control of his golf course to one heretofore unknown, complete architectural novice Willam Robinson?   ;) ;D

Or, did he put Robinson in charge of his Atlantic City project because 1) he knew golf, and 2) because he was there, while bringing in expertise as needed in the form of Hugh Wilson and possibly/probably others?


p.s.   Anyone with a copy of "Golf Architecture in America" by George Thomas is welcome at this stage to step in and let us know what Thomas himself wrote about his involvement at Spring Lake.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:38:31 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #432 on: February 08, 2010, 10:33:04 PM »
"p.s.   Anyone with a copy of "Golf Architecture in America" by George Thomas is welcome at this stage to step in and let us know what Thomas himself wrote about his involvement at Spring Lake."

I already put that on this thread above. The answer to the rest of your question is because Tom MacWood found some newspaper article he says he thinks is relevent even if it isn't. Haven't you noticed he prefaces most of this comments, opinions or conclusions with "If I'm not mistaken" or I think I'm correct in saying..." ?  ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:35:46 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #433 on: February 08, 2010, 10:36:01 PM »
"p.s.   Anyone with a copy of "Golf Architecture in America" by George Thomas is welcome at this stage to step in and let us know what Thomas himself wrote about his involvement at Spring Lake."

I already put that on this thread above. The answer to the rest of your question is because Tom MacWood found some newspaper article he says he thinks is relevent even if it isn't.

Tom,

If I'm not mistaken, I believe you quoted Geoff's book that seems to have paraphrased what Thomas wrote in his.   I have Geoff's book and I'm just curious to hear what Thomas wrote exactly about Spring Lake, or if it contains any additional information about his involvement.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #434 on: February 08, 2010, 10:43:29 PM »
The only mention I know of by Thomas on Spring Lake is from his own book that GeoffShack quoted from in his book "The Captain."

But if you really want to know or truly care about any of this kind of stuff is we are never going to completely know the truth of any of this detail we care about and try to discuss on here from newspaper articles. Some may claim it or pretend it but that just ain't the real details of the history of it. The sooner we all come to terms with that and admit it the better we will be and the smarter for it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:48:08 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #435 on: February 08, 2010, 10:55:50 PM »
Where did you get your information that Heebner and Thomas designed Spring Lake?

Tom,

Shack's book "The Captain", and I have a magazine article somewhere on Spring Lake that includes that info.   

Do you have info to the contrary?


Did you find the magazine article?

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #436 on: February 08, 2010, 10:59:17 PM »
The only mention I know of by Thomas on Spring Lake is from his own book that GeoffShack quoted from in his book "The Captain."

But if you really want to know or truly care about any of this kind of stuff is we are never going to completely know the truth of any of this detail we care about and try to discuss on here from newspaper articles. Some may claim it or pretend it but that just ain't the real details of the history of it. The sooner we all come to terms with that and admit it the better we will be and the smarter for it.

Tom,

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I asked if anyone has a copy of "Golf Architecture in America" and can tell us exactly what in total Thomas says about his involvement with Spring Lake.   

Tom MacWood,

I wrote earlier this evening that the article was in a NJ Metropolitan magazine one picks up at golf courses a year or three back that had an article about Spring Lake that was seemingly better researched than the standard stuff and that I'd held onto it for awhile but unfortunately, it didn't survive my recent move.

I had a bunch of stuff that if I didn't get rid of I might not have female companionship.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #437 on: February 08, 2010, 11:01:19 PM »
That's too bad.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #438 on: February 08, 2010, 11:12:28 PM »
That's too bad.

Tom,

Yes, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find the article.   I believe it was an MGA publication, and it was published in the last few years...probably 2008 for a centennial thingy.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #439 on: February 08, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »
I already posted what GCT wrote in post #410. 

"I have had the great privilege of knowing George Duncan, of Scotland, for many years, first meeting him in NewJersey during 1910 when the Spring Lake Golf Club of that state was completing its course. I well remember playing in a match with him and our professional William Robinson. Duncan went over our new layout and gave us kindly advice concerning the construction."

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #440 on: February 08, 2010, 11:23:47 PM »
I already posted what GCT wrote in post #410. 

"I have had the great privilege of knowing George Duncan, of Scotland, for many years, first meeting him in NewJersey during 1910 when the Spring Lake Golf Club of that state was completing its course. I well remember playing in a match with him and our professional William Robinson. Duncan went over our new layout and gave us kindly advice concerning the construction."

Tom,

Ahh...I see, thanks.

For what it's worth, Dr. William Quirin in his centennial book on the MET clubs also credit George Thomas but doesn't indicate any source for that information except to say, "In 1909, the club purchased a 118-acre farm in Spring Lake Heights, and engaged George Thomas to design what would be his only MET Area course."

As regards the course itself, and the expansion of the course in 1912, wouldn't Harry Ogg, the "new Scotch Greenkeeper" from Carnoustie have been the one primarily involved with that work while Mr. Robinson played the local professional circuit?    Robinson certainly seemed to play in all of the regular tournaments of the time based on what I'm seeing.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #441 on: February 08, 2010, 11:51:57 PM »
"Tom,

Ahh...I see, thanks.

For what it's worth, Dr. William Quirin in his centennial book on the MET clubs also credit George Thomas but doesn't indicate any source for that information except to say, "In 1909, the club purchased a 118-acre farm in Spring Lake Heights, and engaged George Thomas to design what would be his only MET Area course."

As regards the course itself, and the expansion of the course in 1912, wouldn't Harry Ogg, the "new Scotch Greenkeeper" from Carnoustie have been the one primarily involved with that work while Mr. Robinson played the local professional circuit?    Robinson certainly seemed to play in all of the regular tournaments of the time based on what I'm seeing."



Dang it! This looks like another case for our dedicated "road researcher" Steve Shaffer. The last time he actually had to go to New York City to prove wrong MacWood's fanciful and undocumentable notions that Robert White did not design North Shore CC and that Raynor did it. I guess when Steve returns from the southwest he'll need to get to New Jersey and unravel this Spring Lake CC. Thomas/Heebner, Duncan, Robinson, Robertson, Willie Horton thing. When he gets back from unraveling that one the only question left that I can forsee will be from our esteemed researcher/analyst from Ohio who will inevitably ask----"What magazine article was that from?"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #442 on: February 09, 2010, 06:45:18 AM »
I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again, but if memory serves me Steve (and you) were arguing Tilly designed North Shore based on Dr. Q's account. There is evidence of Raynor's involvement and White's involvement, but to date there is no evidence of Tilly's. I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on Dr. Q's account in this case. By the way you've added about as much in substance to this thread as you did to that thread.

1910 appears to be all Norton. Its possible Ogg was involved with Robinson in 1911. Ogg was back in Scotland by at least June 1912, working at Drumchapel GC. Did he leave at the end of 1910 or 1911? I find no record of him in the States in 1911.

Thomas's brief mention of Spring Lake in his book really doesn't indicate who designed the course. He doesn't appear to be taking credit.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 06:57:30 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #443 on: February 09, 2010, 06:48:27 AM »
I found this in the 1916 golf guide. I find it interesting for a couple of reasons. Fraser was already installed as the pro and Geist was chairman of the green committee.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #444 on: February 09, 2010, 07:14:15 AM »
Tom,

Fraser took over as pro after Wilfred Reid left in what was a very short stint at Seaview, same as Connellan.   I'm not sure why you see anything that unusual or interesting, however.   Geist was President, Head of Green Committee, Czar, Potentate, and Indian Chief at Seaview.   No one else had any power or financial interest or risk in the new club, despite that first article that talked about three men as "primary movers" of the new club.

In any case, I'm not sure what we're debating at this point.   I've already told you what seems like two weeks back after Joe and I got back that I believe Robinson should get co-credit for the original Seaview...he just doesn't seem to have any prior design experience and possibly limited construction experience, but that's ok...even complete architectural novices got work sometimes, Tom, which is why right away he intelligently called in help from folks with prior experiece.  

As I mentioned, I think Geist hired him because he knew him. probably liked him, because Robinson knew golf, and because at a time when Atlantic City was an oasis in the middle of 50 square miles of swamplands and sandy forests between Philly and that city, Robinson was there, and could attend to matters in Geist's absence.  

So, there isn't much I disagree with in your timeline except your ongoing attempts to cast doubt on the excellent golf writings of both William Evans and "Joe Bunker", who were both well-connected weekly stalwarts of Philadelphia region golf information back then.   Oh, and on the face of it, I also disagree with your contention that Hugh Wilson was too busy with a course in his backyard (Merion West) to design another one for his friend Clarence Geist two hours away over the course of a six month timespan.   For a guy who is fond of citing all of HH Barker's supposed architectural accomplishments during his whistle stop tour of 1910 between playing in all the big events, how you can even put forward that notion with a straight face is beyond me.  ;)  ;D

As far as the reporting around Seaview, I think you're thinking much too much in terms of today, with celebrity signature designs, or even back then, when a transient pro like Bendelow or Barker might use all avenues to promote his work because it was part of making a living.    To claim somehow that "the first mention of Wilson was October 1913" as some proof that he wasn't involved prior to then in a project that started four months before, especially when that article refers to his work in the past tense, that he "has laid out", and "had been Geist's right-hand man", is really not very good judgment in my view.

Not to mention that you're being very inconsistent in your application of evidence, Tom.   I can't imagne how you'd react if Joe Bunker had written in August, 1911, four months after the Merion project started, that HH Barker had been HG Lloyd's right hand man and had laid out the Merion course?!?   After we pulled you off the ceiling, you'd probably have that article bronzed!  ;)  ;D

We also don't know at all at this juncture if that's the first mention of Wilson.   We still haven't looked at the primary newspaper in AC at that time, and the work we did a few weekends ago was very error-prone, going through literally two years of two different newspapers by hand, turning page by page looking for Seaview needles in haystacks of reporting on mosquito infestations and hotel ads.   It's fun...you should try it some time.  ;)

Besides, Geist was way too big a power broker in the area to let stand shabby or inaccurate reporting around his project, especially if someone was giving credit for HIS course to the wrong person.   It's not like Wilson or Geist or any of these guys went away after the project...Robinson himself was right in the city for most of the next decade.  

Yet, just like Merion, everyone was absolutely comfortable and confident in what was being reported for very good reasons.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 09:32:37 AM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #445 on: February 09, 2010, 10:18:54 AM »

In any case, I'm not sure what we're debating at this point.   I've already told you what seems like two weeks back after Joe and I got back that I believe Robinson should get co-credit for the original Seaview...he just doesn't seem to have any prior design experience and possibly limited construction experience, but that's ok...even complete architectural novices got work sometimes, Tom, which is why right away he intelligently called in help from folks with prior experiece.  


Co-design credit with whom? If it is Wilson please provide some evidence he was involved prior to October 1913? I don't know how you can give design credit someone who apparently wasn't involved at the time the couse was staked out.

I don't know about Joe Bunker, but William Evans is clearly uninformed when it comes to Wilson and Merion. He has no idea when Wilson travelled abroad; he believes the Merion courses were designed after Wilson returned from the UK; he is not aware Merion featured Mid-Surrey mounding.

The irony of this his entire exercise is the man actually deserves the most credit for Seaview has been completely ignored, that would be Donald Ross. There was a good reason why he was called in so early in the process and a good reason why Seaview (Mr. Geist and the Frasers) historically gave Ross the credit.

And as far as the Spring Lake design attribution is concerned it appears Cornish & Whitten are the source for the idea that Thomas designed the course in 1910.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #446 on: February 09, 2010, 12:10:20 PM »

Co-design credit with whom? If it is Wilson please provide some evidence he was involved prior to October 1913? I don't know how you can give design credit someone who apparently wasn't involved at the time the couse was staked out.

I don't know about Joe Bunker, but William Evans is clearly uninformed when it comes to Wilson and Merion. He has no idea when Wilson travelled abroad; he believes the Merion courses were designed after Wilson returned from the UK; he is not aware Merion featured Mid-Surrey mounding.

The irony of this his entire exercise is the man actually deserves the most credit for Seaview has been completely ignored, that would be Donald Ross. There was a good reason why he was called in so early in the process and a good reason why Seaview (Mr. Geist and the Frasers) historically gave Ross the credit.

And as far as the Spring Lake design attribution is concerned it appears Cornish & Whitten are the source for the idea that Thomas designed the course in 1910.


Tom,

If you really think Donald Ross deserves the credit for Seaview than we really have very little further to discuss because that tells me you haven't even bothered to read the detailed evidence and hole by hole analysis that took place in this thread from last year;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38042.0/

If you're just being your usual obstinate "Anybody With Wilson" self in making such an unsupported statement then we're also done here.

As far as Spring Lake's attribution,  I found the same article you did yesterday stating that the course was laid out by pro Willie Norton but am not ready to say that we know the whole story, because we clearly don't.

However, you seem more inclined to play "gotcha journalism", where speed at digging up an old article online about any course on the planet, especially if it differs from conventional wisdom, is seen as some service to the game where I see it as the modern equivalent of muckraking.

While I do appreciate the sometimes very diligent research you do, I think you need to spend a whole lot more time on solid analysis of your findings and a lot less on just breadth of collection activity.

With all good wishes, Tom....hope to find more agreeable areas to discuss in the future.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #447 on: February 09, 2010, 12:33:48 PM »
Michael:

I concur.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #448 on: February 09, 2010, 01:08:35 PM »
IMO if anything your hole by hole analysis made the case even stronger for Ross. It was his bold bunkering scheme that really made the golf course. It was a flat featurelss site without any outstanding natural features to utilize in a routing. The greens were the most outstanding aspect of the original design, but even with the greens its difficult to say what is original and what is Ross. Weren't there reports Ross rebuilt the greens, or at least some of the greens?

Whoever was responsilbe for the original routing, and I believe the evidence points to Robinson, Ross deserves the bulk of the credit for transforming the golf course, which is why historically he has been given the credit.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #449 on: February 09, 2010, 01:49:36 PM »
Michael:

And now to the investigation of the truth of one of Ron Prichard's long time and most interesting statements-----eg could perhaps the bunkers, particularly the fairway bunkers of Merion East be considered the PROTOTYPE for what became the generic AMERICAN bunker style?