[Bradley Anderson]

Colt's 1913 trip was organized by Carters; every course he visited was a Carters customer, including Seaview.

Mr. MacWood,

To support your statement above about Carters having something to do with organizing that trip, I have noticed that the grass guru Reginald Beale seems to have visited the same clubs that Colt worked at or visited on that trip. One wonders if they were not actually traveling together?

[Mike Cirba]

Speaking of Beale, I'm going to start a new, related thread shortly where he give pointers on bunker size, location, timing, configurations, etc.

[Mike Cirba]

Mr. MacWood,

To support your statement above about Carters having something to do with organizing that trip, I have noticed that the grass guru Reginald Beale seems to have visited the same clubs that Colt worked at or visited on that trip. One wonders if they were not actually traveling together?

Brad,

Actually, Mr. Beale arrived some time after Mr. Colt, about a month later as a matter of fact, arriving here in early June 1913 with the intent of visiting a number of prominent courses.   It was his second visit to the US, the first was in 1911.   He came again in 1914.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

In the beginning Wilson and both Merion courses tried out a number of grass samples from a number of suppliers and seed merchants including Carters and they even had some of their own. Like Macdonald before him Wilson also kept a bunch of experimental plots at Merion. After a few years in it seems like Wilson's favorites were Conrad Appel of Darnstadt Germany and Michells. But whatever Wilson bought he always immediately sent samples of it to P&O for testing for purity, germination rate etc. Wilson even acted as a blind procurer of samples from various suppliers so they wouldn't know their samples were going to be tested by the US Dept of Agriculture.

Of course in later years Wilson and some others like him from a few regions basically developed their own bent production and supplies and got into developing the vegetative bent process out of the US Dept of Agriculture.

In the beginning basically those guys didn't trust most all the so-called seed merchants at all. At one point P&O suggested that Harban and Wilson fund a seed production process run by the US Dept of Agriculture's Lymon Carrier from fields around New England and particularly Harry Payne Whitney's massive Prudence Island Rhode Island bent fields. However, Wilson sort of begged out of that by saying he would not do it for anything other than to break even.

But the one thing a guy like Wilson always refused to do was to lend his name or want some seed merchant to use his club's name in their promotions or advertizing.

Reginald Beale sort of got off on the wrong foot with Wilson and P&O back in 1911 with some advice they didn't agree with and I doubt they had anything to do with him after that. But some of the guys they were critical of on agronomic advice were Robert White and particularly William Tucker.

Those 1909 bunker drawings and descriptions from Beale sure are interesting though. However, I only see one, if that, which it might be argued could somehow match what Wilson seemed to be trying to do with the Merion bunker type and style----at least the way Wilson described it in that interesting paragraph I posted a while ago that was never actually published. The list of clubs Beale visited in North America in 1911 and again in 1913 is listed in the April 1914 edition of Golf Illustrated and Outdoor America, page 40. It's a pretty long and impressive list of courses.

On his section on when to do bunker schemes and build bunkers I really like that interesting term he uses to wait until a course "found itself."

NiallC: Again, thanks so much for sending me that interesting article.

[Mike Cirba]

Here's some of the courses Beale visited;

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Did Niall send you that 1909 Beale bunker article? If so, can you post it? I don't know how.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike:

Did Niall send you that 1909 Beale bunker article? If so, can you post it? I don't know how.

Tom,

I did, on a separate thread titled "Beale and Bunkering, - 1909".

He figured that might need it's own space to fully develop, and I think he's probably right.

[Tom MacWood]

Colt's 1913 trip was organized by Carters; every course he visited was a Carters customer, including Seaview.

Mr. MacWood,

To support your statement above about Carters having something to do with organizing that trip, I have noticed that the grass guru Reginald Beale seems to have visited the same clubs that Colt worked at or visited on that trip. One wonders if they were not actually traveling together?

Your absolutely right...that is how figured it out. Based on the timing of their trips I don't believe they ever travelled together. In 1911, 1913 and 1914 Beale lagged behind Colt a month or two, which makes sense since most of these courses were constructed by Carters people and Colt wasn't around to supervise.

I don't know all the courses Colt visited during his trips but I do know quite a few, especially the ones he was involved in designing. In 1911 he was involved at CC of Detroit and Toronto. In 1913 he visited Old Elm, Chicago, Glen View, Winnetka, Garden City, PV, Merion and Seaview.

Here is a Carters adv. from April 1914.

[Mike Cirba]

Your absolutely right...that is how figured it out. Based on the timing of their trips I don't believe they ever travelled together. In 1911, 1913 and 1914 Beale lagged behind Colt a month or two, which makes sense since most of these courses were constructed by Carters people and Colt wasn't around to supervise.

Tom,

I'm not sure I completely understand the connection you're trying to draw between Colt and Beale.   Could you explain more of what you mean?

For instance, Colt departed for the US around the end of April 1913, and late in May spent a week at Pine Valley.    Reports I've seen of Beale indicated he didn't arrive in the states until early June of that year.

Also, the list of courses Beale visited above seems like a heckuva lot in a short period.   I'm sure his trip was sales related, but don't understand what Colt had to do with that?

Thanks for any additional information.

[Mike Cirba]

On his section on when to do bunker schemes and build bunkers I really like that interesting term he uses to wait until a course "found itself."

Tom,

I really liked that section, as well.   It certainly makes very clear the prevalent thinking of the time and the pros and cons of that approach.

I hope Bob Crosby is reading this thread (as well as some others who come to mind) because I recall him very understandably writing a few weeks back that the whole idea of waiting and watching before placing bunkers seemed like a very strange practice, and with our modern understanding perhaps it is.

But, there is also little doubt that in the timeframe prior to WWI it was common thinking among the more "scientific" clubs coming along, and I think understanding that fact is fundamental to really accurately understanding how some of these courses were first designed and then evolved in their formative years.

[TEPaul]

"The book is worth looking at just for the photographs, many of which are of impressive flashed bunkers, both natural and man-made. Hutchinson's influence on the formative years of golf architecture, both in the UK and US, has been under-appreciated."


That is very true and that book is a very important and central one for us to consider. But the point here is the high sand flashed (original sand dish shapes of sand up to the top line) of Merion were done on a INLAND clay/loam, former farmland site that had no natural sand on it (very ironically apparently the Merion West site had a significant enough sand deposit area). So one could certainly not say that Merion East had any natural upswept sand formations on it as so much of the linksland did and NGLA or Pine Valley or even Sunningdale and Huntercombe had once the natural rough vegetation was removed from it.

So, the question becomes, which is still on the table-----what INLAND clay loam (dirt, basically farmland) site and course and project like Merion East's created sand upswept faces to the top FIRST?  

There is no point in comparing Merion East to sand or sandy/loam sites like NGLA, Pine Valley or even apparently Sunningdale or Huntercombe or other heathland sites. We need to find the first examples of that style of bunkers on very different earthen circumstances such as Merion East.

I know that the bunkers of the courses that came before Merion East with essentially its type of earthen circumstance and soil structure such as Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont and probably Baltusrol etc definitely did not use upswept sand faces to the top like Merion originally did. All the courses that came BEFORE Merion East with its kind of INLAND soil makeup apparently used basically flat sand floors in their bunkers.

I'm not saying Merion East was the first that way but it might be. That is all I'm trying to find out as well as if Wilson came up with it first on that kind of site (or else where and how he got the idea on a site like Merion East's). To prove it wrong just find a golf course on and apples to apples earth and soil structure like Merion that had that very same type of bunker that Merion had and that Wilson articulated in that interesting unpublished paragraph above that was written or built before Wilson or Merion East.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I'm not sure I completely understand the connection you're trying to draw between Colt and Beale.   Could you explain more of what you mean?

For instance, Colt departed for the US around the end of April 1913, and late in May spent a week at Pine Valley.    Reports I've seen of Beale indicated he didn't arrive in the states until early June of that year.

Also, the list of courses Beale visited above seems like a heckuva lot in a short period.   I'm sure his trip was sales related, but don't understand what Colt had to do with that?

Thanks for any additional information.

In the UK Carters had become much more than a seed merchant around the turn of the century, they had become a major force in golf course construction. Carters had a large number of grass seed clients in the US, and wanted to become a major force in construction in the States. It appears Colt was a linch pin of that N. American strategy, and 1911 (the year of Colt's first visit) was the year their construction business was launched.

From what I've been able to gather most if not all of Colt's designs in N. America were built by Carters local entities. Beale wasn't spending a great deal of time supervising, he already had people in charge of that, but he could look in on the progress (in Colt's absence) and advise. And more importantly he could take advantage of Colt's inroads and set up future projects for Colt and others. By the way I don't think Colt was the only architect in Carters' American stable.

[TEPaul]

It is very interesting to me that Beale listed Merion as one of the courses he visited in his April 1914 article in Golf Illustrated and Outdoor America but Merion was not listed in the Carter's advertisment (posted above) of one of the courses they "grew-in" in in a specified time. And Carter's Tested Seed construction people (if they even offered that back then) definitely were not used as the contractors and constructors of Merion East.

I like that because it shows that Carter's Tested Seed Co did not fudge those facts with Merion.

Wilson bought some seed from Carter's when they first seeded Merion East in September 1911 but he also used seed from some other companies as well and the interesting thing is he didn't just buy it and plant it----he sent samples of ALL of it down to Piper and Oakley at the US Dept of Agriculture to be tested for identification, purity and germination rate BEFORE planting any of it.

No wonder Hugh Wilson turned out to be a star and go-to guy in the evolution of American golf course agronomy (and architecture).

[TEPaul]

"In the UK Carters had become much more than a seed merchant around the turn of the century, they had become a major force in golf course construction. Carters had a large number of grass seed clients in the US, and wanted to become a major force in construction in the States. It appears Colt was a linch pin of that N. American strategy, and 1911 (the year of Colt's first visit) was the year their construction business was launched."


Now THAT is a really interesting piece of information or potential information to consider! What were the courses that were provably CONSTRUCTED by Carter Tested Seeds Construction arm? I'll have to check back but I seem to recall that William Gordon was employed as the "construction superintendent" for one of those big seed merchants. It may've been Carter's but we'll need to check. Right at the time Philmont North was being constructed (1925-26) he left that former job and went to work for Toomey and Flynn as their primary and long-term construction foreman (among others such as Dick Wilson and Red Lawrence).

[Tom MacWood]

~

[TEPaul]

Matter of fact, there was an interesting mention a couple of times by both Hugh and Alan Wilson with Piper and Oakley (in the early 1920s) that Hugh Alison had made a "proposition" to Flynn or Toomey and Flynn to basically create a company to be known as Toomey, Flynn and Alison.

Unfortunately what that "proposition" was never got mentioned in those "agronomy letters." Could it have been that they all design and use something like the construction arm of Carter's Tested Seed Co? If Colt repreented Carter's I would assume Alison did too since they were European partners. That didn't happen with Toomey and Flynn and Alison and both Hugh and Alan and P&O, despite how much they liked Alison, recommended against it saying that Flynn had a brighter future. And it would not take Toomey and Flynn long to build up their really good, really dedicated traveling construction arm (that sometimes even worked for other architect's projects) and their impressive array of construction foreman such as Gordon, Dick Wilson and Red Lawrence. Flynn's daughter even told us some of that great construction crew lived on their "agronomy" (grass experimentation station) farm in Montgomery Co.

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you right now that if that advertisement just above indicates that Patterson Wylde was Carter's agent in America then some of those "seed merchant" agents definitely represented more than just one "supplier." I guess there's nothing wrong with that----eg it was probably like today's insurance agents who represent numerous insurance companies.

The records of Merion prove that. Wilson mentions he bought some samples from Carter's and Patterson Wylde and a number of others at the same time. 

I would also love to know the date of that Carter and Patterson/Wylde advertisement. I bet it was pretty early with Merion and if so it might help explain why people like Hugh and Alan Wilson and Piper and Oakley became so disallusioned with the business representation practices of those companies they were buying samples from. Obviously with the seed merchants if some club even bought a lb of seed from them they felt they had a right to put that club's name in their ad (which obviously they did legally).

I guarantee you will never see any of those so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects names on any of those commercial seed merchants ads and you will never see any of them remotely connected to representing any of those seed merchants or even saying anything about them publicly either.

There was a chairman of the green committee at Cedarbrook who published his green committee meeting that stated that his club represented a particular lawn mower company. The Wilsons and P&O were all over that as about the most unethical thing immaginable.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Perhaps I'm a bit slow tonight, but I'm still not understanding any direct correlation between Colt and Beale.   Beale's list of courses visited and seed he sold seems to be a who's who of prominent courses in America at the time, and way beyond those where Colt had any involvement.

What's the tie?

And, more germane to this discussion, how does this area of research relate to the origins of Seaview and the whole subtext of our discussion here related to when it was designed, constructed, and who was involved?

Thanks...I find this whole subject very fascinating.

[Tom MacWood]

Other than their connection to Carters, Colt's courses being constructed by Carters and Beale overseeing the construction arm of Carters, I don't think they had any connection.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Who do you think asked Colt to inspect Merion and Seaview in May 1913?

It relates to this question.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Who do you think asked Colt to inspect Merion and Seaview in May 1913?

It relates to this question.

Tom,

I still don't get the connection.   Unless I'm missing something, Beale visited a whole slew of different clubs of high repute, clearly with a sales agenda.   Colt seems to have been more focused, an a report from a British correspondent prior to his arrival indicated that his agenda would be focusing on architectural matters.

Yes, there is some overlap in courses between the two men, but given the breadth of prominent courses Beale visited it would be difficult for it to be otherwise, it seems to me.   Are you suggesting that Beale was following him around, trying to sell seed where Colt had tilled, and that Colt knowingly paved the path for Beale with these clubs?

Were there any other courses that Colt visited in the Philly region besides Merion, Seaview, and then Pine Valley (originally unplanned...reports had Crump having to convince Colt to come by and when he did, he stayed for a week)?  

What other courses did Colt visit in the greater Philly, or even the greater NYC area during his 1913 trip?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I still don't get the connection.   Unless I'm missing something, Beale visited a whole slew of different clubs of high repute, clearly with a sales agenda.   Colt seems to have been more focused, an a report from a British correspondent prior to his arrival indicated that his agenda would be focusing on architectural matters.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Carters constructed most if not all of Colt's courses on these trips. It would have been very difficult for Colt to gain entry to so many projects in the US in such a short period. He was the secretary of a club who dabbled in golf design on his free time when the first trip was planned. It would have been even more difficult for Colt to organize a competent construction crew from abroad. It was a very convenient marriage. By the way Colt did not use Carters to construct his course in the UK.

Yes, there is some overlap in courses between the two men, but given the breadth of prominent courses Beale visited it would be difficult for it to be otherwise, it seems to me.   Are you suggesting that Beale was following him around, trying to sell seed where Colt had tilled, and that Colt knowingly paved the path for Beale with these clubs?

I'm suggesting Carters organized the trip, and they wanted to become not only the dominant seed merchant in N. America, but also the dominant construction outfit in N. America. I think there is good evidence they were successful, especially in the teens and early 20s. Emmet, Tillinghast, Ross, Park all had relationships with Carters at one time or another. Willie Park was actually based out of Carters NYC office.

Were there any other courses that Colt visited in the Philly region besides Merion, Seaview, and then Pine Valley (originally unplanned...reports had Crump having to convince Colt to come by and when he did, he stayed for a week)?

What other courses did Colt visit in the greater Philly, or even the greater NYC area during his 1913 trip?

None in Philadelphia that I know of. I know he was with CBM at Fox Hill for a tournament, but GCGC is the only course I'm aware of that he advised/visited.  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks for your answer.   It does appear from the advertising that Seaview used Carter's seeds during grow-in, or at least some of Carter's seeds.

Is there any evidence that Seaview used Carter's construction company?   Merion?

I just find it odd that they are the only two courses (three with PV) that Colt visited in Philly were both attributed to Hugh Wilson (who had just gone abroad a year prior and had a relationship with Colt), and I would also suggest that Wilson's friendship with Crump may have also been Colt's entre to Pine Valley.   Certainly there were many other courses in the area using Carter's seeds at the time, correct?

Remember that in the spring of 1913, Crump and Wilson were on the same committee going around Fairmount Park looking at potential sites for a public golf course, with Geist, as well.

[Bradley Anderson]

Whatever all these connections were, there was definite success on these golf courses that Beale and Colt worked at.

I worked at Old Elm and on that course those grasses were never replaced. You can still go out there and play on those same bentgrass grasses that were originally seeded in the mix that was used on those greens. Probably those were specified by Beale. And Old Elm benefited early on from having a really good greenkeeper who kept the Poa annua from invading those greens.

Old Elm didn't get the fanfare that Country Club of Detroit got because they didn't host any big events wherein the likes of Vardon or Ray would play there.

If Carters was diluting their product by mixing Red Top in their bentgrass supplies, they wouldn't have done so on their showcase properties.

[TEPaul]

"Is there any evidence that Seaview used Carter's construction company?   Merion?"


Mike:

This is what I would like to know as well. Those first two yellow paragraphs above pose a very interesting issue and situation to ponder and consider----eg Carter's, for instance, was somehow providing construction services with some architects----in this case courses over here that Colt had to do with, and perhaps not just around here but wherever he went.

The producer of those yellow paragraphs says he is "suggesting" what he says in them. Is there some factual evidence we can know about from any club anywhere over here that factually backs up that "suggesting" or is that "suggesting" just his own speculation?

Of course we can see from some of those advertisements that construction services are something a seed company like Carter's offered but I would surely like to know what courses are the examples of where it was actually done.

Ex: It appears from one bio on the man that William Gordon initially was employed as the so-called "construction superintendent" for I believe Carter's but we also know that as Philmont was about to be constructed Gordon left that previous employee and went to work for Toomey and Flynn where he remainded for the next couple of decades. Why did he move? Was business for the construction arm of Carter's bad or non-existant? And frankly, we can't even be sure it was golf courses he was working on constructing for Carter's. Maybe they were other things too---tennis courts, croquet courts, ball fields, whatever. After all, companies like Carter's and Sutton's et al did not begin for the business relating to golf; they had both been around quite long before that.

If there is some factual evidence behind it I think it would be a most important aspect to know about the early evolution of American golf architecture and architectural construction.

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