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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #825 on: May 18, 2010, 11:49:04 AM »
Joe,

Interesting to note that these articles were published AFTER Raynor was initially hired by NS in November, 1914 and his plans were approved in January, 1915.

However, the articles do not state White designed the course.

Raynor needed a better PR person.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 11:50:47 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #826 on: May 18, 2010, 11:57:52 AM »
Also interesting to read the part about all the blasting.  I asked the superintendent a month ago if we might encounter any rock if we made a big cut on any of the holes, and he said the course was all sand.  I was a bit surprised about that since you can see rock outcroppings in a couple of places around the course now.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #827 on: May 18, 2010, 12:18:09 PM »
Phil/TEP
I'm sorry for the misspelling...I fixed it. If nothing else we've learned a great deal about spelling and grammar from you two, and we all thank you. It is also very good of you, TEP, to continually share with us your opinions regarding who are competent historians and who aren't. I believe that is your greatest strength, that is analyzing and evaluating the competency of historians. Thanks again, and keep up the good work.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #828 on: May 18, 2010, 12:44:59 PM »
Joe,

Interesting to note that these articles were published AFTER Raynor was initially hired by NS in November, 1914 and his plans were approved in January, 1915.

However, the articles do not state White designed the course.

Raynor needed a better PR person.

Steve
In the second article it says "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #829 on: May 18, 2010, 01:07:24 PM »
Tom MacW

Sometimes, strange as it may seem, newspaper reporters make mistakes. That's why newspapers have a correction section. Recently, a friend of mine who is a Judge was identified in a newspaper article as a lawyer. Such is the case here. The first article described White in the capacity of which he was hired as the minutes so state... "to superintend the building of a new one..."

Obviously, Raynor needed a better PR person or White fed the reporter the stories.

You are beating a dead horse.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 01:43:33 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #830 on: May 18, 2010, 01:30:06 PM »
How similar is NS now to what was on the ground in say 1917?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #831 on: May 18, 2010, 01:42:04 PM »
I have no dog in this fight, and actually, truth be told, having played quite a number of Robert White's course and really like them and also believing that there is a contingent of folks here who are biased towards MacRaynor despite any evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to wish some credit for White might be proven.

That being said, however, given the timeline of other events as we know them, I read those articles as talking about construction, and not design.   

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #832 on: May 18, 2010, 01:47:20 PM »
Joe,

I have not yet visited or played NS but from what I understand , the answer is that not much has changed over the years since 1917.

Mike,

What fight?  ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #833 on: May 18, 2010, 02:15:05 PM »
Mike,

None of us has a dog in this fight.....there may be a skunk in there though! :D

Steve
In the second article it says "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."

TMac,

Just so I am clear,

Are you arguing that this one sentence means something in the entire context of this gca.com debate?

Are you arguing that this one sentence proves something beyond what has been proven before?

Are you arguing it means more than the Raynor contract for design at NS?

Are you arguing it means more than the Raynor replica holes being described in the very same article as the basis for design at NS?

Or, are you just arguing, because you found this one sentence and can?

Please put your thoughts on that one sentence in a broader context for us, so we can assess your position.  Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #834 on: May 18, 2010, 02:56:21 PM »
BTW, here is a crazy thought about what that article and those glowing attributions in those club minutes might mean.....

They seemed a bit more glowing about White and CBM than Raynor, although they did call Seth the leading gca in America.  Given the success of NGLA, Merion, and other clubs, could it be given the times, they weren't exactly proud of the fact that they went out and hired Raynor?  Either because it was his first job, or because they wanted CBM and he pushed them off, or because it seemed more sporting to do it themselves?

Maybe, as was similar at Merion, they really were focused on construction and not so much design?  So, they credit CBM for his knowledge of construction (and might this have something to do with the professional debate going on in the same year?)

Anyway, just a loose thought as to how things might have been, while we are on the subject.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #835 on: May 18, 2010, 03:08:12 PM »
My two cents:

Robert White was to North Shore as Fred Pickering was to Merion.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #836 on: May 18, 2010, 03:11:59 PM »
Interestingly, it seems like Tom Macwood has equated White at North Shore with his opinion of Wilson at Merion...am I correct Tom?

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #837 on: May 18, 2010, 05:38:49 PM »
Joe,

I believe that is a very astute observation.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #838 on: May 18, 2010, 07:04:21 PM »
Joe,

Interesting to note that these articles were published AFTER Raynor was initially hired by NS in November, 1914 and his plans were approved in January, 1915.

However, the articles do not state White designed the course.

Raynor needed a better PR person.

Steve
In the second article it says "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."



Tom MacWood,

If the basis for your position, which is that White designed or had substantive design imput at North Shore, is rooted in the above citation, then, logically, it has to follow that your position has maintains that neither Raynor nor Macdonald had anything to do with the design of North Shore since they're specifically excluded from that citation, AND, that the "golf committee" deserves equal credit in designing the golf course, to the exclusion of SR and CBM.

Since you've used the above citation as the foundation, or cornerstone of your position, you would have us believe that in 1914, a golf committee, composed of inexperienced novices in the realm of GCA, designed North Shore.

And, incredulously, this golf committee of neophytes, in 1914, routed and designed North Shore to include incredible replicas of the Eden hole, Plateau, double Plateau, Road Hole, Redan, Cape and punchbowl, without any input from SR or CBM.

You can't have it both ways.

If you insist that the above citation is proof that the Golf Committee and Robert White designed North Shore then Raynor and Macdonald couldn't have had anything to do with the design since they're excluded/omitted from the citation.

Now I know, according to you, that I'm an idiot, but, if you're going to use that citation as the basis for your position because it specifically names the two parties as having conceptualized the scheme of the course vis a vis the planning of the golf committee and Robert White, then you have to exclude Raynor and Macdonald from the process because the article excludes them from any involvement.



Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #839 on: May 18, 2010, 09:50:36 PM »

Now I know, according to you, that I'm an idiot, but, if you're going to use that citation as the basis for your position because it specifically names the two parties as having conceptualized the scheme of the course vis a vis the planning of the golf committee and Robert White, then you have to exclude Raynor and Macdonald from the process because the article excludes them from any involvement.


I don't have to do anything of the sort. Unlike you I approach these things with intelligence. I don't allow my emotions to get the best of me, to be overly influenced by one particular bit of information or the reputation one architect over another. I remain consistent in my belief that Raynor, White, & CBM all deserve credit for the redesign at NS, and let us not forget Emmet's original layout.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #840 on: May 18, 2010, 09:54:11 PM »
Interestingly, it seems like Tom Macwood has equated White at North Shore with his opinion of Wilson at Merion...am I correct Tom?

What do White and Wilson have in common?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #841 on: May 18, 2010, 11:51:08 PM »

Now I know, according to you, that I'm an idiot, but, if you're going to use that citation as the basis for your position because it specifically names the two parties as having conceptualized the scheme of the course vis a vis the planning of the golf committee and Robert White, then you have to exclude Raynor and Macdonald from the process because the article excludes them from any involvement.


I don't have to do anything of the sort.
Unlike you I approach these things with intelligence.

Your writings contradict the above statement.

North Shore indicated in clear, concise terms that Raynor was their architect.
The contract they signed was with Raynor.

Yet, you ignore what any intelligent individual sees, claiming instead that a man North Shore cited as their agronomist, their greens expert, is responsible.

And, you make these claims, NEVER having seen the golf course which is so Raynoresque that even Ray Charles would recognize his work.


I don't allow my emotions to get the best of me, to be overly influenced by one particular bit of information or the reputation one architect over another.

I can't speak to whether or not your emotions get the best of you, but it seems that your ego may..
Hamlet I, iii.


I remain consistent in my belief that Raynor, White, & CBM all deserve credit for the redesign at NS, and let us not forget Emmet's original layout.


The record/minutes provide sufficient evidence that Raynor did the redesign.
And, perhaps the greatest evidence of all that Raynor designed North Shore, irrefutable evidence is what's in the ground.
And I've seen what's in the ground and you haven't.

So, which is the more intelligent position ?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #842 on: May 19, 2010, 06:11:20 AM »


“The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

“When we made our purchase, it was reported that our links measured about 6400 yards but we soon found out that these figures were entirely erroneous and, as a matter of fact, the actual measurement was only slightly over 5,000 yards. Even before we made our acquisition, we knew that in many respects the links were badly planned and that at some time a largely modified layout would have to be determined upon. The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States. This new course will measure about 6,400 yards, it will take in about fifteen acres of woodland and takes the fullest advantage of the natural advantages offered by the rolling ground which we own.”

“I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressing gratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.”


It was a collaboration.

Mike Sweeney

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #843 on: May 19, 2010, 07:32:52 AM »

It was a collaboration.

Tom,

Interesting argument. If I was the owner, I would want one additional collaborating evidence of White's involvement. Something like writings from White, Raynor or Macdonald acknowledging White's work. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #844 on: May 19, 2010, 08:00:52 AM »
Mike
Did you see post #835? The second article from 7/26/1915 says: "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."

Its unlikely you will find anything written by Raynor acknowledging White. Raynor did not write. Likewise its unlikely you will find anything written by CBM either, he rarely if ever mentioned projects where he just advised. The most likely scenerio would be White acknowledging the other two. From the very beginning, for whatever reason, White seems to be the star of the show at North Shore. He is mentioned prominently in just about all the contemporaneous articles.

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #845 on: May 19, 2010, 08:22:25 AM »
"The most likely scenerio would be White acknowledging the other two. From the very beginning, for whatever reason, White seems to be the star of the show at North Shore."


Tom MacWood:

That's obviously your opinion but despite a long running thread on North Shore and contributions from a number of others including the club itself or their representative, it seems none agree with you. What does that say? Isn't that something like your analogy on here earlier----eg if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound?

I'd say at the very least this has been a benefical excercise in "peer review" even though you might label it another conspiracy theory to promote the legend of one architect over someone else as you have with other architects, clubs and courses such as Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia et al.

You said above you come at these subjects with objectivity and intelligence, but it seems that opinion is only yours and it seems to also be a minority opinion of one.

"Peer review"----ah yes, what is more constructive and beneficial on here?


« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 08:24:05 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #846 on: May 19, 2010, 08:30:33 AM »
By the way, it occurs to me reading this thread and others on here like it that since this website really is one primarily concerned with golf course architecture and design that perhaps too many become completely fixated on that element alone and tend to try to fit anyone (White is probably a good example) into that particular box somehow.

Yes, of course golf course projects are collaborations----but they are colloborations amongs a number of people hired and used for quite different purposes such as design, construction, agronomics etc.

That would seem to be the case with North Shore and Raynor and Macdonald and Robert White. You seem to want to fit them all into the same design box somehow when that probably wasn't the way it worked at North Shore as it didn't with numerous other projects like it----at least not when it comes to ultimately assigning design attribution to someone.

Mike Sweeney

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #847 on: May 19, 2010, 08:40:49 AM »
Mike
Did you see post #835? The second article from 7/26/1915 says: "The scheme of the course as planned by the golf committee and Mr. White..."

Its unlikely you will find anything written by Raynor acknowledging White. Raynor did not write. Likewise its unlikely you will find anything written by CBM either, he rarely if ever mentioned projects where he just advised. The most likely scenerio would be White acknowledging the other two. From the very beginning, for whatever reason, White seems to be the star of the show at North Shore. He is mentioned prominently in just about all the contemporaneous articles.

No I did not, but now I have and without reading every post and now leaving for the day, I would say you have a valid argument that White should get some credit - either design or development, not sure. Those two articles from Joe, cast it in a different light for me. Not sure if they are new to others. Clearly he was more than the club pro and/or greenskeeper.

The fact that he seemed to be fired from the club should be taken into consideration - honestly not sure how as it was a different era and the club nor White probably wanted too much said about it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #848 on: May 19, 2010, 08:42:37 AM »

It was a collaboration.



Agreed, with each man having a seperate role, which North Shore acknowledged.

White's role was as the "greens expert" and Raynor's as the architect.

I'm glad we finally agree.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #849 on: May 19, 2010, 08:47:35 AM »

...... even though you might label it another conspiracy theory to promote the legend of one architect over someone else as you have with other architects, clubs and courses such as Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia et al.

You said above you come at these subjects with objectivity and intelligence, but it seems that opinion is only yours and it seems to also be a minority opinion of one.


TePaul,

Its sort of hard to have a conspiracy to promote the legend of Seth Raynor when we have a documented contract for design and the course looks like a Seth Raynor course.  It seems that if White had a design influence, the course would look less like a Raynor and not more. Maybe he did influence the look of some bunkers or whatever by being the guy who built them, using his previous experience, and influencing their look. But, its not unusual for courses by one designer to look a little different from others depending on the builder, and I am not sure the bunker builder (to this day) gets that much credit.  Does Bradley get co-design credit with Coore and Crenshaw for Sand Hills, for instance?

As we all agree, the superintendent of construction (White, according to the contracts) does collaborate and is very important to the process.  Maybe in a perfect world, they should get more credit for the success of the project than they typically do. I read that passage from the minutes TMac repeatedly posts as an attempt to give credit to all who are due for the overall SUCCESS of the project, and not only the design.  

In the end, its almost an unanswerable question. You hire a pro/greenskeeper with turf experience to best assure the sucess of your project and he does that.  But, the question of attributing design because of it is a matter of opinion.  If a lot of other courses did that, then maybe White should get credit.  But, a lot of other courses DON'T do that, so TMac is really trying to use NS (among others) to force a new standard of attribution on the rest of the world.

My perspective is definitely modern, because I keep looking at the contracts. If something was wrong with the design, the club would sue Raynor. If something was wrong with the construction, they would sue (or fire) White.  Contracts laying out responsibilities do mean something, and they meant something back in those days, too.

TMac,

Again, I think I understand where you are coming from, even if you are a stubborn army of one in the battle over attribution.  But, if you want to wage the war, I suggest you come up with some other evidence than newspaper quotes, like specific differences in bunker styles, hole templates, etc., that are different from what Raynor nomally did in a big way.  That would better prove some design influence  by White, but I think we have gone as far as we can in parsing words in the minutes and newspaper articles we have already seen, no?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 08:57:33 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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