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TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #650 on: April 21, 2010, 05:45:01 PM »
Steve:

Thanks for those additional "timeline" details.

You can see what I mean with that timeline, though, can't you, when you use it to analyze what some of the things mentioned in that March 13, 1915 material probably mean and/or can't mean since some of that wording is using the past tense on March 13, 1915 and some of the the things with the creation of the course had not yet begun.

To me this is the most interesting part when applied to that timeline:

"The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of ou professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States."

To me there are two important potential revelations and meanings there:

1. Robert White had to have already lent active and intelligent cooperation to the routing and design plan of Raynor's by March 13, 1915 because that was all that had been done at that point since construction and greenkeeping had not yet begun.

2. The term "laid out" was used to refer to routing and paper plan designing in some instances and not just actual construction which we have long maintained with other clubs who used that term around that time, despite the objections of others on here as to what the term meant and what it didn't mean back then.

To me it probably meant both to various people back then but the point here is it could only mean one thing at North Shore on March 13, 1915 and not the other because the other hadn't even happened yet and that material describes actions that had already taken place.

Given all that unless something else comes up that is more definitive one way or another wth Raynor or White my suggestion to the club with their architect attribution for the course from 1914-15 might factually be best looking something like this:

Architect----Seth Raynor (with assistance from Robert White).


What do you think of that suggestion Sterverino Shaeffer, Golf Course Architecture Researcher Supreme?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 05:56:45 PM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #651 on: April 21, 2010, 05:55:12 PM »
Tom,

In 1914, there are 3 notes of interest:

September 15: $300 per year for an expert for tree removal.

October 15: $45.50 for 13000 seedlings.

November 5: $400 for Raynor to advise on course improvement.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #652 on: April 21, 2010, 09:31:55 PM »
From the Annual Report of the President of the North Shore Country Club, March 11th, 1917

Fellow members of the NORTH SHORE COUNTRY CLUB

The year which is past has not been marked by any startling new developments, unless we should designate in that matter the completion of the plan for the improvement of our links.

I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressinggratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.

 

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #653 on: April 21, 2010, 09:34:02 PM »
On the balance sheet of the club from February 29th, 1916 there was a line item for "new golf course construction" which stood at $31,475.25

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #654 on: April 21, 2010, 09:46:09 PM »
Mark,

It's hard to argue with that President's report.

I'm looking forward to playing there next month.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #655 on: April 21, 2010, 09:52:09 PM »
From the Presidents report of March 11th, 1916.

Fellow members of the NORTH SHORE COUNTRY CLUB:

As we approach the completion of the second year of our existence, , we have every reason to feel that the Organization of this Club was a wise procedure and that its possibilities go even beyond our earlier expectations.

Although during the past year we suffered considerable inconveniencethrought he undeveloped condition of the Golf Links, as they were turned over to us by our predeccessors, as well as by the interference with these limited facilities through the construction of our new course, our members flocked to our grounds in far larger numbers than in the preceding year.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #656 on: April 21, 2010, 09:57:47 PM »
Mark,

Was the President's Report of 1916 in a separate pamphlet?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #657 on: April 21, 2010, 10:16:48 PM »
Yes it was. It was in the scrap book of the club. There was an additional pamphlet from the President from 1917 too.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #658 on: April 21, 2010, 10:20:10 PM »
Mark,

I only found the 1915 pamphlet in the scrapbook and was allowed to have  the relevant pages photocopied with an overhead copier operated by the staff.

Good work!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 10:22:59 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #659 on: April 21, 2010, 10:39:22 PM »
Mark:

Once again, I want to thank you and the club and Mr. Zucker for agreeing to put all the good material you have on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com to let us all consider it and vet it, peer review it or whatever!

As I have said so often, I suspect---no, I fear, had it not been for the way this all played out recently between this club and Steve Shaeffer (Phil Young et al) having had the good sense, respect and decency to take this remarkable architect attribution shift find (from Tillinghast to Raynor (White?)) to the club and to Mr Zucker first who I understand had his heart set on buying a Tillinghast course, rather than just trying to blind-side them, as a few have done before on this website, and apparently want to do to other clubs and seemingly just to make a name and reputation for themselves by blind-siding clubs with mistakes they have made with their histories, this good subject and thread and relationship with some of us on this website and North Shore GC could never have happened as it has so successfully.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 10:42:17 PM by TEPaul »

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #660 on: April 21, 2010, 10:46:12 PM »
I missed it the first time around also Steve. It was pretty exciting to find something new.

The scrapbooks over at the Harmonie Club were wonderful also, though there were no mentions of the architecture. There were records of the early days of playing golf at the club.

I also found the records of the approval of the official color of the club, as well as the design of the club logo.

The eeriest record was finding the death announcement card for Isidore Strauss for April 15th, 1912 in the Harmonie Club minutes. He was the owner of Macy's who was killed when the Titanic sank.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #661 on: April 21, 2010, 10:57:12 PM »
I enjoyed reading about the "associate member" wars within the club with the resultant resignations and withdrawls of resignations. This was a result of the NS opening membership to non members of Harmonie. When did the formal split take place between NS and Harmonie?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #662 on: April 21, 2010, 11:34:59 PM »
Mark,

It's hard to argue with that President's report.

I'm looking forward to playing there next month.

I'll be there to track you down Pat!

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #663 on: April 22, 2010, 06:49:54 AM »
Great job Mark and Steve!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #664 on: April 26, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #665 on: April 26, 2010, 05:23:18 PM »
SteveS:

Thanks for the update.

This seems to be the appropriate golf architectural part (their new golf architecture and architect attribution):






"Our classically designed Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald golf course forms the highlight of our facility......

.........Notable Golf course creators Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald, known for building course that stand the test of time, designed our 6,365 yard course.  Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald made their mark as outstanding course designers devoted both to the game and the preservation of natural surroundings. North Shore's course is little changed from that original design with putting greens that tend to be small, tightly bunkered, sloped and quick."



That sure seems appropriate to me given this interesting investigation into their architecture beginnings of that time and the important material you found. As for Robert White's part in all this my suggestion would be that the club just make ALL this material available in their archives and interested researchers can interpret his part in the architecture however they choose to.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #666 on: April 26, 2010, 05:27:45 PM »
The only thing left for Mark to do is to remove the photograph of Tilly holding the plans in the upper right corner of the mast head!  ;D

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #667 on: April 26, 2010, 06:11:20 PM »
"The only thing left for Mark to do is to remove the photograph of Tilly holding the plans in the upper right corner of the mast head!   ;D"


Phil:

My suggestion to North Shore GC would be to just leave that photograph in the upper right corner of their website of Tilly holding the plans and simply place a caption under it reading;

"Oh Shit, this isn't the plan for North Shore, it's the plan for that damn Whiffensnoofer Golf & Pinnocle Club."


OR..


And alternative caption could be:

"I thought I drew this plan; why the Hell does it have Seth Raynor's name on it?"
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 06:15:19 PM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #668 on: April 26, 2010, 06:22:58 PM »
How about this for the NS website:

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #669 on: April 26, 2010, 10:49:38 PM »
Hopefully the catering and membership demand will increase with latest update.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #671 on: May 10, 2010, 08:17:56 AM »
Bump

Today/tomorrow is the MGA Senior Am. I was planning a visit but something else prevents me from attending.Anyone playing or visiting?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #672 on: May 10, 2010, 09:39:22 PM »
Understanding the clarity that comes from 20-20 hindsight, I can't believe that anyone could think that North Shore was an AWT course.

The golf course reeks of the style of CBM-SR-CB.

The combo "Road Hole"/Redan 3rd green, the "Plateau/punchbowl 4th green, the Redan 9th green,
the Biarritz 14th green, the Plateau 15th green, the Double plateau 17th green. The "Cape" like 7th.
The bunkering.

North Shore is a fabulous golf course, a sporty course at about 6,600 from the back tees.

It's fun to play, and the green complexes are fantastic.

The greens were fast and FIRM.

Again, 20-20 hindsight makes geniuses of us all, but, I just don't see how anyone could claim the course was an AWT design when it so clearly bears the CBM-SR-CB brand.

 

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #673 on: May 10, 2010, 09:45:27 PM »
Pat,

Then maybe it is about time that you give more credit to George Bahto who has claimed that it was a Raynor course for a number of years now...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 11:29:44 PM by Philip Young »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #674 on: May 10, 2010, 09:53:31 PM »
"Again, 20-20 hindsight makes geniuses of us all, but, I just don't see how anyone could claim the course was an AWT design when it so clearly bears the CBM-SR-CB brand."


Pat:

It wasn't 20-20 hindsight and none of us are geniuses for it. That is why George Bahto started this thread on here back in November of last year that eventually led Steve Shaeffer on the advice of Phil Young to go to New York to look in the archives of the New York Historical Society.

I am not a big believer in the architectural analysis theory of "If it looks like some architect it must be that architect" but in the case of North Shore it is pretty apparent it is definitely the Macdonald/Raynor style for sure.

Of course from last November until Steve Shaeffer actually went to New York we had to put up with the ususal Tom MacWood bizarro opinions about Robert White being North Shore's architect and frankly that may've been the real reason Shaeffer took the time and made the effort to go to New York's Historical Society!  ;)

Patrick, I understand they are holding the Met Senior Amateur Championship at North Shore today and tomorrow and you are playing in it. Can we have an update on that from your extreme Energizer Bunny self?

« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 09:56:23 PM by TEPaul »

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