[TEPaul]

"Is it my imagination or does seem like the pitfalls are only brought up when the information does not match the preferred story?"


Tom MacWood:

It is definitely your imagination. I think that's what most everyone on here has been trying to tell you recently on these North Shore threads and what I've been telling you for years on various other subject clubs and courses you look at this way. That's what happens with someone like you who's never been to these places and consequently knows nothing about their memberships or their actual archives. It's too bad when those who know these clubs (including Mike Sweeney on this one) explain to you what they know and/or have seen from the clubs you tend to just continue to ignore it or rationalize it away. You've done the same thing on a number of other subjects on here including Merion and Myopia.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quote from: Mark Hissey on Yesterday at 09:39:58 AM

The Green Committee was empowered to use their discretion regarding terminating the services of Mr. Robert White.


Mark
What can we read from this entry?

Quite simply, that Mr White's days were numbered.


That's a fairly interesting question and we can probably read quite a lot about a number of things to do with North Shore club structure and administrative and operating MO.

Not really.
It's obvious that forces within the club/committee/board wanted to terminate Mr White, the matter was discussed and the authority to terminate him was turned over to the committee.  It's a form of PRE-APPROVAL and not uncommon in club affairs.

The meaning of the word discretion is the power or right to act according to one's own judgement; freedom of judgement or choice. In this case the freedom of judgement or choice of the Green Committee in this issue of White and his future employment. The word or term "discretion" or "discretionary" is also a word and term with a technical and legal meaning and application as in "Discretionary Account" as used in the world of financial investment and brokerage (ex; Wall Street) to mean a broker or brokerage has the legal right (formally given in writing by the client) to act on investment decisions and exceutions without first informing (or getting permission from) the client. Failure to inform a client of these investment decisions and executions (particularly trades) without a formal "Discretionary Account" written approval can subject brokers and brokerages to lose of license.

TE, you have so much to learn and I only have so much time to devote to your education.
This isn't rocket science.
The Board had made the decision approving the termination of Mr White and simply created the mechanism for doing so by ceded the execution of that approval to the committee.

The use of this term in the North Shore meeting minutes (board or committee) and supporting documentation seems logical as apparently this club (North Shore) was populated by a board and membership of some fairly big time New York business and perhaps Wall Street people.

You're reading far too much into a rather simple matter.
Have you been dipping into the mushrooms again ?

The clubs of people like this generally have these kinds of comprehensive and detailed meeting procedures and consequent meeting minutes. It's basically an MO and habit these kinds of people take from their business lives and transpose to the administrations of their clubs.

Baloney, or Bolagna, however you like it.
The club/committee wanted to fire Mr White and they simply got the Board to pre-approve the action.
It's done all the time at clubs.

It is interesting that apparently the board formally "empowered" (took a board vote) to allow the Green Committee to act on their own judgement in the case of White's employment----in this case rather than having to ask the board for approval of what their decision would be in the case of White.


TE, you ignorant slut !  They wanted to fire him, they approached the board for permission to do so and the board granted them permission.
It's that simple, stop reading tea leaves and conjuring up the spectre of wall street shenanigans.

That the board actually "empowered" the green committee to do that (use their own discretion with White) in this particular case also tells me that the administrative structure and decision making procedures of North Shore GC was probably organized heavily into a top down structure rather than an organizational structure that allows various commttees far more decision making autonomy (discretion) such as my own club is and always has been because it was originally structured that way (By-Laws) when it was formed in 1916.

It must be your lack of experience in serving on club Boards that leads you to these erroneous conclusions.

In the great, great, great majority of cases, committees don't have the authority to hire and fire Department heads or consultants.
That power simply lies with the Board

Do your club's committees have the authority to fire and hire superintendents ?  Club Pro's, Managers ?   YOU ?
If so, I suggest you try to get the By-Laws changed ASAP because your membership is in clear jeopardy.

[Mac Plumart]

I have some observations and was wondering if the group could inform me whether I am on or off-base...

It would appear that when doing historical research concerning golf course architecture and attribution analysis, there are a few different ways to go about it.

One is to dig through magazines and newspapers published at or around the time of the information you are seeking in an attempt to discover articles related to the topic.

Another is to go to historical archives of the club itself or institutions which house those archives and clubs records.

It appears that Tom Macwood does the first and Mark Hissey and Steve Shaffer have done the second on this thread.

While each appear to yield some fruit, wouldn't you want to start with the clubs historical records first?  And perhaps if the clubs historical records have been lost (perhaps in a fire) or are not accurately kept, then going to the newspapers would be ideal.

Thoughts?

[TEPaul]

"While each appear to yield some fruit, wouldn't you want to start with the clubs historical records first?  And perhaps if the clubs historical records have been lost (perhaps in a fire) or are not accurately kept, then going to the newspapers would be ideal.

Thoughts?"


Mac:

That is most certainly my feeling and I've suggested it on here for what seems like years now.

Apparently a few on here don't share that feeling or process but it is not lost on me that every single good researcher/analyst/historian on golf course architecture I've ever known does share that feeling and does use that process of establishing a relationship with the subject club first to see, analyze and consider what they have in their archives on their own architectural history FIRST.

I have no problem at all with newspaper and magazine articles on old clubs and courses but I don't believe that is the place to start an intelligent and comprehensive and competent investigation on a club and course's architectural history. And I certainly don't believe newspaper and magazine articles are the only research material to use if one knows or suspects a club has more on their architectural history at the club itself.

Matter of fact, clubs that do have good and comprehensive historical archives of their club and course histories have just about all the old newspaper and magazine and periodicals written about them anyway. The reason is obvious----eg clubs tend to collect and reposit in their archives just about everything of any worth they were ever aware of that was written about them. And more interesting than that those newspaper articles and magazine articles about them have in most all cases been in their archives since the day or week or month they were first published!! In many of the clubs and courses some of us deal with these days that often includes many newspaper and magazine articles contemporaneous to some of these courses' creations that are getting to be close to a century old or more now.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark:

I’m going to ask you a question at the end which may be a bit premature, at this point, and perhaps even a bit touchy or uncomfortable to answer now.

As you know I think this particular architect attribution investigation on North Shore GC has probably been the most successful this website as ever had on any architect attribution question of any club and course.

I say that because the question began on this website as did the investigation. And I say that because of the remarkable new material discovered as it was and where it was and by whom and given the fact that the discoverers of it did the right thing and took it to the club first and before making it public on here thereby not blind-siding the club and particularly Mr. Zucker who as we understand it was gungho on buying a Tillinghast design, and I say that because the club has agreed to make it public on here as they have through you etc, and that is a very good thing I hope other clubs can get comfortable with if the right process is followed as I believe it was with North Shore GC.

I think the whole investigation and process of it by all involved was done exactly the right way and I hope it may even set some kind of a precedent on this website for how these kinds of things should be done in the future.

So the question is given all the material produced on here to date, and given the thorough peer review process it went through on here on these threads and elsewhere, can you tell us how you think the club will now present the architect attribution of their course?

No confirmation of that Tom. What I can guarantee you is that Tillinghast will not appear on the card but that Raynor certainly will.

[Mark Hissey]

"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes"

Mark
I would assume you would never claim Steve invented these other entries....how did choose which entries to transcribe and which entries not to transcribe?

All I was doing was to transpose what photographs I had. I will be photographing everything shortly and will get this all posted in its entireity including the scrapbook from the Harmonie Club which was in a completely different location. At the time I took the photographs I was trying to illustrate the Tillighast/Raynor attribution so I took the relevant photographs. Nothing more.

[Mark Hissey]

I have given North Shore some really great documents which i found at the Harmonie Club and which they gave to me. The initial solicitation for new members for the golf course from 1914, and also an invitation to the first match at the club from 1916 with a red feather pasted to the invitation.

Also the image of the the original club crest which has fallen into disuse.

[TEPaul]

"No confirmation of that Tom. What I can guarantee you is that Tillinghast will not appear on the card but that Raynor certainly will."



Mark:

Thank you. With what's been found and produced recently that sure sounds reasonable. If someone is interested in more detail on the design or redesign from 1914-16 they could always contact the club and check out the club's archives for the mention of the course's original Emmet design, the work of Robert White as the club's pro/greenkeeper/construction foreman and Macdonald and the club committee for their consulting. That would all seem to complete the story to date of the original course.

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Would it be possible to add dates to the different entries?

[Mark Hissey]

It would take some cross referencing with my notes to state when these dates were.

I'll do my best do do that when I have a chance.

But, I have some news. I was at the NY Historical Society again today and found two new annual reports. I took lots of photographs where you can see the dates for the particular quotes. I did find a new neference to Raynor and Macdonald which was incredibly exciting.

[mark chalfant]

Mark,

Thanks so much for all the diligent research that you and Steve have done. The recent findings are certainly bearing some very interesting fruit  !  I have played the course several times and I like the way that Raynor distributed some of the most dramatic terrain throughout both the outgoing and incoming nine. Also, its remarkable set of green complexes further distinguish North Shore. Thanks again for your research !

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The MGA Senior AM will be played at North Shore on May 10 &11

http://www.metgolfer-digital.com/metgolfer/20100405#pg44

[Neil_Crafter]

I have some observations and was wondering if the group could inform me whether I am on or off-base...

It would appear that when doing historical research concerning golf course architecture and attribution analysis, there are a few different ways to go about it.

One is to dig through magazines and newspapers published at or around the time of the information you are seeking in an attempt to discover articles related to the topic.

Another is to go to historical archives of the club itself or institutions which house those archives and clubs records.

It appears that Tom Macwood does the first and Mark Hissey and Steve Shaffer have done the second on this thread.

While each appear to yield some fruit, wouldn't you want to start with the clubs historical records first?  And perhaps if the clubs historical records have been lost (perhaps in a fire) or are not accurately kept, then going to the newspapers would be ideal.

Thoughts?

My take on this is that you really need to do both! You will not get the full picture from either.

[Jeff_Brauer]

But, I have some news. I was at the NY Historical Society again today and found two new annual reports. I took lots of photographs where you can see the dates for the particular quotes. I did find a new neference to Raynor and Macdonald which was incredibly exciting.

Mark,

Since I logged on to another thread, I have to say (Caddyshack voice.....) "Well, we're waiting!"  This sounds like some info that might really give insight to how Raynor and CBM worked together in the interim period, if you are in a position to share with us......Thanks in advance.

[Mark Hissey]

Sorry Jeff. It's been a busy few weeks. We're making sure that Sebonack is ready for opening day and my wife hasn't gotten around to developing the photographs.

I'll try to get them done and then transcibe them over on to this thread.

Mark

[Mark Hissey]

I'm cutting and pasting here for you. There may be some overlap with the information, but bear with me.

From the President's report on 1916 it says:

GOLF LINKS

As you are well aware, our new links are now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps which will be added, the plans for which have been full matured (sic).

As previously stated, it is confidently expected thats the new Links will be opened for play not later than Decoration Day in any event, and considerably earlier than this date if the Spring weather conditions should be of a favorable nature. Those of our membership who have been able to watch the development of our new Course, and who have had opportunities of observing other Links in this country, will surely recognize that our new Course will be as good a one as now exists, and will prove to be a great added attraction for our members, and also to a greatly increased number of guests.

Our soil is admirably adapted to the development of a beautiful fair green, , and the character of our land with its natural undulations and hazards has provided us with an opportunity offered to no other Links in this section of the country, with the possible exception of one or two located in the New England Mountains.

The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Rauynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.

[Mark Hissey]

Initial report from 1914 taken from the Harmonie Club minutes:

Roslyn Property

The property consists of 189 acres of rolling ground, together with a water front of 1800 feet on Hempstead Harbor, 7 bungalows, a lake with an area of over five acres, a club house of moderate proportions and an 18 hole golf links already laid out.

(two paragraphs about waterfront and bungalows omitted)

The club house might be available for our purposes for a few years, but your Committee feels that in order to make a proper start the erection of an entirely new house, at an early date, would be advisable.

The links have been declared, by a recognized expert, as well planned and requiring only moderate alteration, and though not in ideal condition at present, they could be played over as soon as the property belongs to us.

[Mark Hissey]

Surplus Acreage

As the property consistes on 189 acres and as not more than 140 acres would be required for an eighteen hole links and for buildings, it would leave for disposal, about fifty acres of ground.

(paragraph admitted talking about possible sale price)

It may, however, develop that the applications for for membership may be so large that an additional nine hole course would have to be laid out and, in that event, the increased income of the Club would be sufficiently enlarged to more than compensate for the additional from the inability to dispose of any part of our purchase.

[Mark Hissey]

Golf Links

When we made our purchase, it was reported that our links measured about 6400 yards but we soon found out that these figures were entirely erroneous and, as a matter of fact, the actual measurement was only slightly over 5,000 yards. Even before we made our acquisition, we knew that in many respects the links were badly planned and that at some time a largely modified layout would have to be determined upon. The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of ou professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States. This new course will measure about 6,400 yards, it will take in about fifteen acres of woodland and takes the fulest advantage of the natural advantages offered by the rolling ground which we own.

Your board has appropriated the sum of $37,000 for this improvement of out links, and the expperience made, as far as we have gone in the matter, would indicate that this sum will be ample in every respect to accomplish the result aimed at.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Thanks for that material. Could you put a fairly exact date on when the last item (Post # 653) was written or delivered publicly?

Thanks

[Mark Hissey]

I'll try to sort that out tonight Tom. Some of the minutes are repeated in the President's reports. The last set of photographs should clarify that for me. I'll get on it tonight.

[TEPaul]

"I'll try to sort that out tonight Tom. Some of the minutes are repeated in the President's reports. The last set of photographs should clarify that for me. I'll get on it tonight."


Thanks for that Mark. And if possible could you also mention at what date, as best as can be determined, the club actually first began to implement the Raynor design plan on the ground; in other words when they first began to construct.

The real reason I ask this is because if that language in Post #653 was delivered BEFORE the club started doing anything on the ground (constructing the new design) then that could change the interpretation of what White actually did do with Raynor as well as how and with what real meaning clubs back then used the term "laid out" and what-all they really meant to indicate with that commonly used term back then.

My questions are sort of "timeline" oriented from which some otherwise pretty unobvious things can be derived. But I will tell you one thing----eg if that wording in Post #653 occured BEFORE the club began to construct the new design, I, for one, am ready to consider that Robert White really did have some colloration with Raynor strictly on the "design" end (routing and "designing up" architectural features on a paper plan) of things and not just in the greenkeeping and construction end of things. The reasons why should be pretty obvious if one considers the particular and individual events along that timeline! In other words, if those words came before construction and/or grassing began they cannot be referring to as describing construction or greenskeeping; they would pretty much have to be referring to and describing the inevitable preceding phase (to construction and grassing) of routing and design planning.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

TEPaul

From my notes, the date of #653 is the Annual Meeting of March 13, 1915

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul
From my notes, the date of #653 is the Annual Meeting of March 13, 1915"



Steve:

Thanks. Having studied your timeline I thought it was right about that time. So, what I would really like to know next is WHEN the club FIRST broke ground to begin the construction of the new design plan. I ask that because if it was BEGUN after March 13, 1915 I really can't see that the wording in post #653 could've been talking about White collaborating with Raynor in ONLY the areas of actual construction or grassing (greenkeeping) because it hadn't even begun yet on March 13, 1915.

THEREFORE, that would pretty much leave ONLY routing and designing up of the architectural features on a PAPER PLAN, that was referred to in that March 13, 1915 material that could be seen by the members in the Harmonie Club.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom,

Again ,from my notes, I see that on March 25, 1915, the chair of the Greens Committee reported on progress of work on the course and that on May 25, 1915 $250 was authorized for stump blasting. Then on June 22,1915, the Greens Committee reported favorable progress in the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work after completed as compared with the original estimate.On December 28, 1915 it was mentioned that the course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.

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