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TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #550 on: April 06, 2010, 11:39:23 PM »
“I humbly suggest that you back up the statement and try to prove it with facts,”


Jeffrey:

When you ask Tom MacWood to back up a statement he made with facts, it looks like the following response from him is about the best he can do with backing up a statement he made with facts.


“At the very least facts were presented.”


Mr. Jeffrey, it may be something of a new concept on here but if you ask him to produce facts and his response simply contains the word "facts" in it I guess he figures he produced facts, huh?!?



 ;) ::) ??? ;)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 11:42:35 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #551 on: April 06, 2010, 11:42:35 PM »
TMac,

To be honest, as I typed my last response, it dawned on me that we have kind of gone Hatfield-McCoy on this one, in that we may not even remember what the feud is about!  Do we remember exactly what theory we are supposed to be presenting facts on?  I took a guess that it was on your contention that 1917 had to be a special year for Raynor, based on comments made in Scotland's Gift by CBM in 1928?

Please correct me if I am wrong!

TePaul,

I did say earlier that I thought we were being bamboozled by TMac, with him using argumentative techniques guarantee to thumb his nose at us, and keep an endless argument going.  Nonetheless, as you can see above, I am asking him for a refresher, which I think almost any thread needs every 15 pages or so, don't you?

Its not that there isn't some viable threads of discussions among his questions, though.  We all want to know just how CBM and Raynor interacted, with me PRESUMING that there was some kind of transition plan to get CBM out of the business and allow Raynor to shine on his own, without relying on CBM or his repuation to survive.  But, that is just my take on it, from reading George's book and others.  There really isn't much written down on that exact transition, but I am fairly certain that if there was, George B would have discovreed it by now.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 11:46:38 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #552 on: April 07, 2010, 12:39:25 AM »
"Its not that there isn't some viable threads of discussions among his questions, though.  We all want to know just how CBM and Raynor interacted, with me PRESUMING that there was some kind of transition plan to get CBM out of the business and allow Raynor to shine on his own, without relying on CBM or his repuation to survive.  But, that is just my take on it, from reading George's book and others.  There really isn't much written down on that exact transition, but I am fairly certain that if there was, George B would have discovreed it by now."



Jeffrey:


I'm afraid what I don't get on here is the fact that Macdonald was pretty explanatory in his own book about this but for some reason some just don't see it, don't want to see it, or frankly just aren't capable of understanding what Macdonald pretty clearly wrote.

I think I've mentioned on here about a half dozen times that Macdonald definitely DID NOT say that Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture in 1917, but as MacWood generally does on this website he completely ignores that fact and he just continues to say that Macdonald said Raynor became a post-graduate in golfing architecture in 1917.

Macdonald said nothing of the kind----period----end of story! If MacWood can't even figure that out, at some point, I really do wonder why anyone, including you, would consider continuing a discussion with him on here about any of this.  

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #553 on: April 07, 2010, 06:16:50 AM »
"Next came the St. Louis CC, then the White Sulphur Springs layout, and then finally came the colossal task of the Lido at Long Beach. By this time Raynor had become a post graduate in golfing architecture, and since 1917 built or reconstructed some 100 to 150 courses, which I have never seen. The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale GC, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deedale, and the Creek Club were the only ones I gave and personal attention to after 1917."

1917, not 1914 or 1915 or 1916. Clearly something happened in 1917, CBM mentions twice in the same paragraph describing Raynor's career and his involvement with Raynor. What happened in 1917?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #554 on: April 07, 2010, 07:41:17 AM »
"Next came the St. Louis CC, then the White Sulphur Springs layout, and then finally came the colossal task of the Lido at Long Beach. By this time Raynor had become a post graduate in golfing architecture, and since 1917 built or reconstructed some 100 to 150 courses, which I have never seen. The Mid-Ocean Club, the Yale GC, the Links Golf Course, the Gibson Island Golf Course, the Deedale, and the Creek Club were the only ones I gave and personal attention to after 1917."

1917, not 1914 or 1915 or 1916. Clearly something happened in 1917, CBM mentions twice in the same paragraph describing Raynor's career and his involvement with Raynor. What happened in 1917?

Tommy Mac

You are clearly mis-understanding the paragraph unless both you and CBM write in a fashion to convey the wrong message.  CBM is clearly saying that by 1917 Raynor was a master at his (more accurately CBM's) craft.  That said, 1917 seems to have some sort of significance, do you know what it is?  I suspect 1917 was the year CBM decided he was no longer "in the business" and it may have come after the completion of a project.   

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #555 on: April 07, 2010, 08:04:34 AM »

CBM is clearly saying that by 1917 Raynor was a master at his (more accurately CBM's) craft.  That said, 1917 seems to have some sort of significance, do you know what it is?  I suspect 1917 was the year CBM decided he was no longer "in the business" and it may have come after the completion of a project.  


Based on an anaysis of Raynor and Macdonald's courses prior to and after 1917, I believe 1917 was the year Raynor began to work independently as a golf architect. CBM did design golf courses after 1917.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #556 on: April 07, 2010, 08:19:46 AM »
TMac,

How can you ignore a signed contract in 1915 for North Shore?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #557 on: April 07, 2010, 08:23:47 AM »

CBM is clearly saying that by 1917 Raynor was a master at his (more accurately CBM's) craft.  That said, 1917 seems to have some sort of significance, do you know what it is?  I suspect 1917 was the year CBM decided he was no longer "in the business" and it may have come after the completion of a project.  


Based on an anaysis of Raynor and Macdonald's courses prior to and after 1917, I believe 1917 was the year Raynor began to work independently as a golf architect. CBM did design golf courses after 1917.

Tommy Mac

You could well be right, but that wouldn't preclude Raynor from doing projects more or less on his own previous to this date.  I know my reading of that paragraph would indicate that CBM was an advisor to Raynor on the courses mentioned and that he should probably get a co-design credit, but in the end, that was up to Raynor and CBM - so whatever they say goes.  IMO, I think 1917 is more the the date that CBM wanted out rather than Raynor taking a definite step to go solo.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:27:11 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #558 on: April 07, 2010, 08:45:26 AM »

Based on an anaysis of Raynor and Macdonald's courses prior to and after 1917, I believe 1917 was the year Raynor began to work independently as a golf architect. CBM did design golf courses after 1917.

What documentation do you have to support this thesis?

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #559 on: April 07, 2010, 09:32:09 AM »
"I suspect 1917 was the year CBM decided he was no longer "in the business" and it may have come after the completion of a project."

Sean Arble:

Macdonald very clearly says he gave his personal attention to six projects (he lists them) involving Raynor AFTER 1917. Macdonald's last project in the business was apparently Yale in the mid-1920s. Not many years after that when Perry Maxwell wrote Macdonald asking him if he would consider looking at a project he was involved with Macdonald wrote back to the effect; "Young man, I wish you luck on your new project but I would not walk around the corner for another golf course project."  



"CBM is clearly saying that by 1917 Raynor was a master at his (more accurately CBM's) craft."

No he isn't. Macdonald is saying Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture BY THE TIME of the St Louis, Old White and The Lido projects. Perhaps you don't realize when those projects were begun. It was not in 1917.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 09:37:49 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #560 on: April 07, 2010, 09:39:33 AM »
Mike,

Great, now TMac will post that quote again, claiming it as fact!

TMac,

As I have said before, I understand where you are coming from on this - you want to better understand the transitional relationship between CBM and Raynor.

As I have also said before, I think it was a long term transition.  Why CBM mentioned 1917 in 1928 we don't know, especially since he declares SR a post graduate based on work undertaken in 1914-15.  I do think CBM's book was a collection of writings and that may have been the date he was thinking about when he wrote it earlier and editors didn't remove it when the book was published.  Just a guess.

The understanding of the transition is also clouded by the fact that CBM never accepted a fee.  So, in the case of NS, its quite possible that SR got hired as the official gca and CBM was involved to some degree, whether in just helping Raynor sell the job, or offering a one day review of the plans to bless them (most likely in my view, but again, it really speculation)

He was obviously willing to offer advice to close friends, and was much sought out when NGLA was being built, as evidenced by MCC in 1910-12.  But, I think he was trying to turn down all but the most interesting commissions very shortly thereafter.  Is that everyone else's understanding?

I also think the plan hatched early to credit SR signifigantly, so he could take over the jobs that CBM didn't want, but still use that CBM association if it helped SR, not unlike Pete Dye and his sons today.

So, I agree it would be interseting to study the contract of those 1913-16 jobs to see if the followed the NS example, or if CBM was actually written in somehow.  (I doubt it, though given the amateur status issues and him never taking a fee)  But, the NS contract may be the best example we have of how that transition worked - Raynor hired as gca and construction overseer (with help from on site super) and CBM still get some credit for a greatly reduced role, mostly, IHMO, to give Raynor some street cred.  I think we know that they mentioned CBM in the minutes at NS because he was a star, and Raynor wasn;t at that time.

To me, that document is far more telling than a 1928 quote in a book where CBM is really obsessed with his own history.  1917 probably meant more to him than it did to Raynor, since he had been gradually taking over the chores of design since nearly the beginning.

I think we also know that he didn't make a lot of trips even to the big jobs like STL if they were distant, but they still wanted the CBM name.  Hey, not a lot different than JN, TF, or TD today where associates do most of the work, but under approved guidelines of the boss.

To me, if that is how they worked, the credit should be given like it was given.  I am not sure what is gained by altering it, even if a deeper understanding of how they worked is desired.  But, as you might say, I think its pretty clear how they worked, and finding that CBM went to one project twice and another only once isn't that signifigant.  Others may have a different view.  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #561 on: April 07, 2010, 09:48:24 AM »
"But, I think he was trying to turn down all but the most interesting commissions very shortly thereafter.  Is that everyone else's understanding?"


Jeffrey:

My understanding of the projects that Macdonald chose to get involved in has a whole lot to do with who the people were who were asking him. If you track the projects he did agree to get involved in and better yet if you track exactly who the people were behind the projects he got involved in I think this will become much clearer to you as it has been to me for some years now.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #562 on: April 07, 2010, 09:57:01 AM »
TePaul,

That is my understanding is well....I thought I was obligated to ask others to "provide facts" on this thread.......

That factoid would help us understand why CBM pushed Raynor.  Either he liked him and wanted to help him make a liviing, and/or he didn't want to dissapoint anyone asking for his advice, but wasn't interested enough in working on less than classic courses, or less than great friends, so he developed the Raynor design with CBM adivce model.  Based on today's similar arrangements, I would hazard a guess that the courses credited to Raynor, even in the early days, would be over 90% Raynor, with a quick review of plans by CBM at first.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 09:59:22 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #563 on: April 07, 2010, 10:08:27 AM »
Jeffrey:

Regarding some of what you said in #570 there is a most interesting and clearly very important historical sidebar to it, in my opinion.

At this very time of NS (1914-1915) the shit was really beginning to hit the fan generally with the question of amateur status and how the USGA looked at it and responded to it. At this time the USGA president (Robert Watson) had become really stringent on "Amateur Status" rules and regs and particularly regarding golf architects who had been amateur players of skill and reputation. A vocal contingent of people concerned with golf were calling for the USGA to much more clearly define specific rules for amateur status and particularly amongst architects.

At this time (1915-1916) a resolution was written by the USGA and voted on by the board that seems to me to be remarkably labryinthine and not particularly clear on any specific acts of what constituted amateur status or a violation of same. I think many were somewhat disappointed and critical of the USGA that the resolution they voted on was not far more clear on the specifics.

Essentially the resolution stated that the USGA expected golfers and amateur golfers of noted skill and reputation to understand what constituted specific acts of violation of the Amateur status code and philosophy but if they did not understand it and conform to it they would hear from the USGA about it.

I have that resolution around here somewhere and even if it is unsigned I have little doubt it was C.B Macdonald who wrote it. ;)

Consequently, I doubt anyone will ever find an actual contract involving a golf architectural design in which Macdonald's name is mentioned as part of the contract. The reasons why should be fairly clear to all, in my opinion. The same should not be said regarding Seth Raynor. He was always considered to be a paid professional in the business of golf course architecture and he also was never considered to be an amateur golfer of skill and reputation which is actually necessary for someone to violate the USGA's Rules of amateur playing status. Most people never even think of or consider the latter aspect.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 10:15:18 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #564 on: April 07, 2010, 10:23:41 AM »
"I suspect 1917 was the year CBM decided he was no longer "in the business" and it may have come after the completion of a project."

Sean Arble:

Macdonald very clearly says he gave his personal attention to six projects (he lists them) involving Raynor AFTER 1917. Macdonald's last project in the business was apparently Yale in the mid-1920s. Not many years after that when Perry Maxwell wrote Macdonald asking him if he would consider looking at a project he was involved with Macdonald wrote back to the effect; "Young man, I wish you luck on your new project but I would not walk around the corner for another golf course project."  



"CBM is clearly saying that by 1917 Raynor was a master at his (more accurately CBM's) craft."

No he isn't. Macdonald is saying Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture BY THE TIME of the St Louis, Old White and The Lido projects. Perhaps you don't realize when those projects were begun. It was not in 1917.

Tom P

Yes, by 1917 (which could mean any year to that date), Raynor was a master at his craft.  CBM is not specific, so I don't think I should be specific with CBM's words. 

I could be wrong, but it is my impression that the last six (if not more - we must remeber CBM was talked into projects such as Lido) projects are a time of winding down for CBM.  This is why I suggest 1917 could be the year CBM felt it was time to get out of the business.  That doesn't mean it was a cold turkey decision.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #565 on: April 07, 2010, 10:43:17 AM »
"CBM is not specific, so I don't think I should be specific with CBM's words."


Sean:

In my opinion, Macdonald was very specific. He mentioned three distinct projects (St Louis. Old White and The Lido) by which TIME he considered Raynor to have become a 'post-graduate in golfing architecture.' And those specific clubs know the exact dates of those projects and so do some of us. I don't see how it can get much more specific than that. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #566 on: April 07, 2010, 10:50:56 AM »
"CBM is not specific, so I don't think I should be specific with CBM's words."


Sean:

In my opinion, Macdonald was very specific. He mentioned three distinct projects (St Louis. Old White and The Lido) by which TIME he considered Raynor to have become a 'post-graduate in golfing architecture.' And those specific clubs know the exact dates of those projects and so do some of us. I don't see how it can get much more specific than that. 


Tom

So, by which specific date was Raynor a master?  If you can nail down a specific date, was it by 1917?  If so, I don't know how my statement could be incorrect.  There is no need to try and create specifics where they don't exist.  This is much of why you, Tommy Mac and other argue of nothing.  What is important is the trends and how they effected architecture both short and long term.  Endless arguing over precise dates and what could ahve been done by them wastes so much time and enery.  Energy which could be beteer spent in cooperation. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #567 on: April 07, 2010, 11:00:15 AM »
Sean:

That looks like just another example on here of how nobody ever seems to want to admit they could be incorrect about anything they say.

The projects Macdonald mentioned in which he said "BY THIS TIME" Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture all preceeded 1917 and by a considerable space of time. There is nothing confusing about that so I don't see why someone should interpret it as some amorphous statement that needs to be interpreted as just some point up to 1917. We know the dates of those projects he mentioned and they were begun in the 1914-1915 timeframe. I don't know about you but the 1914-1915 timeframe is not the same thing to me as 1917.

To me the importance (or more specifically lack of importance) of this whole 1917 thing as to when Raynor did his first solo design is just another example of the remarkably muddled analytical thinking and logic of Tom MacWood, and it is getting really tiring and counter-productive on here in my book.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:02:09 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #568 on: April 07, 2010, 11:08:12 AM »
TePaul,

I tend to agree with you.  On TMac's other thread centering more on Mountain Lake, and in Sean's post above, there is usually a few years time difference between founding, design, construction and opening.  So in referencing a project, there could be lots of dates that would be relevant.

I recall the amateur status issue.  It raises a few questions, such as dd CBM write it so he could get around it, or was he very cognizant of the spirit of the rules and wanted to abide by them?  Or did he lay low in 15-16 while the debate was raging, and when the dust cleared a bit, get back in the saddle somewhat in 1917?  Or lay lower? Is the 1917 date in any way connected more to the USGA ruling than Raynor's business status?

And by the way, if he was never offically in the biz, how could he decide to get out of it?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #569 on: April 07, 2010, 11:16:49 AM »


Sean:

That looks like just another example on here of how nobody ever seems to want to admit they could be incorrect about anything they say.

The projects Macdonald mentioned in which he said "BY THIS TIME" Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture all preceeded 1917 and by a considerable space of time. There is nothing confusing about that so I don't see why someone should interpret it as some amorphous statement that needs to be interpreted as just some point up to 1917. We know the dates of those projects he mentioned and they were begun in the 1914-1915 timeframe. I don't know about you but the 1914-1915 timeframe is not the same thing to me as 1917.

To me the importance (or more specifically lack of importance) of this whole 1917 thing as to when Raynor did his first solo design is just another example of the remarkably muddled analytical thinking and logic of Tom MacWood, and it is getting really tiring and counter-productive on here in my book.

TomP

So now you are talking in time frames rather tahan specific dates.  If you can't pin down a speciifc date, and we both know you can't, why in the heck are arguing?

Sometimes think you lose sight of the goal of these discussions, or perhaps your goals don't mesh with others'.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #570 on: April 07, 2010, 11:20:30 AM »
When did Macdonald hire Raynor for the National?

Are we really arguing that it took Raynor eight years and direct hands-on involvement with all of the following (except Merion...others?)  to learn architecture?   What was he, stupid?  ;)


1910 - NGLA
1911 - Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock, Merion
1912 - St. Louis, Greenbriar
1913 -
1914 - East Lake, Lido
1915 - Islip, CC of Fairfield, Westhampton, North Shore
1916 - Blind Brook, Shinnecock Hills, Greenwich
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:22:33 AM by Mike_C »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #571 on: April 07, 2010, 11:24:49 AM »
I believe he was hired early on to survey the property, but for the purposes of this exercise I am looking at the years 1910 to 1916.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:45:10 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #572 on: April 07, 2010, 11:42:35 AM »
"What was he, stupid?   ;)"


Mike:

It would not surprise me to see some on here make that case about Raynor and golf course architecture, and particularly considering where he went to college! ;)

I note it is the same college Hugh I. Wilson went to and as we know some on here maintain Wilson couldn't even think for himself without the likes of Macdonald/Whigam holding his hand for some considerable amount of time.   I should also note it is the same college JFK matriculated into in his freshman year but fortunately for him it seems his father figured it out fairly quickly and whipped him out of the place and had all the records he had ever been there expunged and had the developing young lad plunked directly into Harvard!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:47:01 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #573 on: April 07, 2010, 11:54:28 AM »
"CBM is not specific, so I don't think I should be specific with CBM's words."


Sean:

In my opinion, Macdonald was very specific. He mentioned three distinct projects (St Louis. Old White and The Lido) by which TIME he considered Raynor to have become a 'post-graduate in golfing architecture.' And those specific clubs know the exact dates of those projects and so do some of us. I don't see how it can get much more specific than that.  


Raynor/CBM were involved in projects before, after and in between those three courses. This an example of the advantage of having additional information (and the disadvantage of not having enough info) when trying to understand what happened.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:58:39 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #574 on: April 07, 2010, 12:09:26 PM »
"Raynor/CBM were involved in projects before, after and in between those three courses. This an example of the advantage of having additional information (and the disadvantage of not having enough info) when trying to understand what happened."



Just another example of significant muddled analytical thinking!

Macdonald said Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture BY THE TIME of St Louis, Old White and The Lido, and so they are the only projects we need to consider when understanding why Macdonald said Raynor had become a post-graduate in golfing architecture at that time.

Apparently you're not much good at understanding what a "timeline" is much less using one constructively and properly.

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