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Mark Hissey

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #325 on: March 25, 2010, 10:03:00 PM »
I'm not very technically proficient with these things, but I will try to get somebody to post my photographs of the documents tomorrow. Hopefully they will come out clearly. They aren't terribly clear as flash photography wasn't allowed.

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #326 on: March 26, 2010, 09:39:34 AM »
Thanks Mark; Hopefully your photographs are clear enough to show if Steve Shaeffer is a competent secretary or just another one of these Philadelphians into altering original documents.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #327 on: March 26, 2010, 11:00:58 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Thanks for posting all those articles.  As usual they are very interesting, if not very conclusive.  It seems that we usually have conflicting info among all the old newspaper reports.

I realized last night that I really have no interest in who designed NS. I do have a general interest in the concept of course attribution, but have expressed those thoughts re NS and in general and rehashing them won't serve any purpose other than to stir more animosity here.

I am not sure why your opinions and thoughts stir any animosity in me and others, even if we disagree.  Like you, I think it would be fascinating to find some letter saying something like "Raynor missed the train so we were on our own building the tenth green, so I put a little swirl in the bunker and Seth was PISSED!" Then we would have better insight as to how it all went down in those days, which is what we all, regardless of opinion, are really speculating among facts about anyway.  At least, I tend to wonder how different or same it was a century ago building golf courses.  It was certainly less formal contractually, if nothing else.

I hope the new owner does well and finds all the info you and others have brought forward of use or comfort to him as he presents the course to golfers in its next century of use and enjoyment.  The fact that the course is of so much interest over 90 years later is certainly a testament to its quality and design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #328 on: March 26, 2010, 11:33:50 AM »
Dave,

You'll do anything to get out of buying a round!

There's no question that both his report & timeline were the product of his notes  copied verbatim. They are not, however, direct quotes and without a doubt are simply "bullet points" of what those documents state.

It looks like I'll be thirsty a while longer!

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #329 on: March 26, 2010, 11:52:20 AM »
I'll look at my notes when I return from my winter hiatus in Arizona. My recollection is that I copied the minutes verbatim as best I could but my report was written in bullet points. Please bear in mind that it took me awhile to gather my thoughts after reading the initial Raynor mentions in the minutes.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #330 on: March 26, 2010, 11:52:44 AM »
Dave,

You'll do anything to get out of buying a round!

LOL!  ;D

My wife and I are living proof that Dave Shivas Schmidt has bought a round of drinks.  He bought us at least one round in a blues bar in Chicago in August 2005 the Friday of the Walker Cup.  

Honest!  ;D

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #331 on: March 26, 2010, 12:08:30 PM »
"My wife and I are living proof that Dave Shivas Schmidt has bought a round of drinks.  He bought us at least one round in a blues bar in Chicago in August 2005 the Friday of the Walker Cup.   

Honest!   ;D"




Bill McBride:

Honest, my ass! To determine that we will first have to know beyond reasonable doubt whether the foregoing was from the exact meeting minutes in the Blues Bar, or your transcription of them exactly word for word or with bullet points or merely your opinion of what they actually say.

At this point, I am not inclined to accept without further and really conclusive proof that David Shivas Schmidt ever bought drinks for anyone.

Bill_McBride

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #332 on: March 26, 2010, 02:47:55 PM »
"My wife and I are living proof that Dave Shivas Schmidt has bought a round of drinks.  He bought us at least one round in a blues bar in Chicago in August 2005 the Friday of the Walker Cup.   

Honest!   ;D"




Bill McBride:

Honest, my ass! To determine that we will first have to know beyond reasonable doubt whether the foregoing was from the exact meeting minutes in the Blues Bar, or your transcription of them exactly word for word or with bullet points or merely your opinion of what they actually say.

At this point, I am not inclined to accept without further and really conclusive proof that David Shivas Schmidt ever bought drinks for anyone.

I thought it was Shivas!  But I could have been wrong....

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #333 on: March 26, 2010, 06:43:11 PM »
The picture of the 13th hole in the picture is now the 11th.  This hole is among the most troublesome tee shots because of tree interefence to an awesome but extremely severe green.  This is one hole i eagerly look forward to seeing Tom Doak iimprove.  There is quite a bit of land behind and to the left of the current tee, so there is an opportunity for something really great to come about.



Bill Brightly

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #334 on: March 27, 2010, 08:51:06 PM »
The 2010 MGA Senior Amateur will be played at Norh Shore this year, May 9-10. I'm really psyched, as I'll now get to play another Raynor! Then again, I'll probably play lousy...my focus will be on looking for what is pure Raynor and what is Emett that Rayynor left...Oh well, a built in excuse!

Just one person's opinion, but the question of White's involvement is moot. He may have had a great deal of input on the ground, but Raynor was in charge. That makes it a Raynor. I knew that when I first saw George' picture of the doubl plateau

Great research guys! Great GCA thread!

Here's a qustion: when Tom is done with his work, will it be a Raynor or a Doak?

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #335 on: March 27, 2010, 10:25:17 PM »
Let the debate begin.  We have alot of information that leans toward Robert White as the original architect.  White also designed "prototype" holes much like Raynor and MacDonald.
White was Supt. and wrote of the construction methods used at North Shore.

Yes, Robert White did create prototypical golf holes.  Longue Vue has a Redan and Eden.  Northampton Country Club does not have any of the prototypical holes but the greens are what you would expect from some Raynor projects (or White for that matter); double-plateau, deep swales..... 

White was truly a trend setter in his time.  Some of his 1st's include working for Crawford, McGregor and Camby which became McGregor.  He was the 1st to create machined golf clubheads, 1st to introduce crop management practices into the turf industry.  Created the first "management" style maintenance practice overseeing 11 Westchester area courses.  Founding member of both the PGA and ASGCA.  He also built the frist putting green at the White House. 

Robert White much like Findlay and Park Jr. are forgotten (somewhat) on this DG.  Their contributions in design and development of the game in America were nonetheless substantial.  Maybe it was timing, maybe personality, that left them from the forefront of todays architectural students.  White's work at North Shore (always being disputed) is top-notch.  The 9th hole - Road Hole is as good as it gets.  His other work is decent but will not blow you away.  His courses are subtle and fun to return to time and time again.

Yes, Wayne the Clubhouse at Longue Vue is unrivaled in the state and easily one of the best in the country.

Robert White has done some very interesting work.  He has even incorporated those features typical of Raynor or Banks into his designs.  As we were investigating the work being completed at North Shore (see previous postings) it was found that White had alot to do with that course than previously thought.  His work at the Longue Vue Club in Pittsburgh and Northampton Country Club in Easton are worth checking out.

Born 1874 – St. Andrews, Scotland
September 1894 – Robert White arrives in the U.S.
First (or early) Golf Pro at Myopia Hunt Club – Hamilton, MA 1895
Laid out original 9-holes at Salem C.C. “18 stakes on a Sunday”

Member – One of first Professional Golfers Organization in U.S. – Chicago 1907 “The Illinois Professional Golfers Association” (Pro at Ravisole C.C. 1902-1914)

First President of PGA of America – 1917- 1919
      - Wannamaker Meeting, New York City

Pro at North Shore C.C. on Long Island 1914-1922+.

First Pro/Greenkeeper to apply principles of crop agriculture to turf.  (Eleven years attended U. of Wisconsin “Farmers School” winter meetings – 1902-1912)

Ravisole was well maintained
- Shawnee-on-the-Delaware Pro/Greenkeeper for one year.
- Pro pay high, Greenkeeper pay low.

First “Management Company” Greenkeeping
-Pro at Wykagyl C.C., New Rochelle, NY 1922-1932
- Three young Pros – R.W.  supervised maintenance at eleven Westchester County courses.

Built first putting green on White House lawn.

First to develop golf boom in Myrtle Beach, S.C.
      - 1927 – Lay out first course on Grand Strand.
      - Bought land
      - Ocean Forest Club
Charter Member – 1948 - American Society of Golf Course Architects

Designer and builder of over 100 golf courses.

Died 1959 Myrtle Beach, S.C. age 85 – wealthy.



TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #336 on: March 28, 2010, 09:03:58 AM »
It is not that clear to me exactly what the purpose of the last post is other than perhaps another attempt by the poster to promote White at North Shore as the original architect despite recent hugely compelling and convincing documentary evidence from the club at the time to the contrary.

I don't think there is much question but that Robert White's entire career in various and interesting areas in golf and architecture in America was a long and impressive one and that should be dealt with and discussed on this website for sure. But this thread is on the design evolution of North Shore GC, and particularly in the 1914-1915 timespan when clearly Raynor became involved with the course and club during a major design or redesign (of a pre-existing Emmet 9 hole or perhaps 18 hole course).

If a investigation and discussion of the details of Robert White's career is to take place on here it probably deserves it's own separate thread rather than on this one on the architectural evolution of North Shore GC.

If Jim Nagle's (who by the way, is a fairly active contributor to this website) comments are going to be reprised in a post by Tom MacWood sans additional comment, then perhaps this comment (from this very thread (Reply #5) which is a number of years later (Nov, 2009) should be included also with the rest of his comments on White and North Shore in the post above;

"North Shore has always been a mystery.  Is it Raynor, Tillinghast, White .......?  What is interesting is that if one visits White's work at Longue Vue (outside Pittsburgh) and Northampton C.C. (Easton) you will find similar, although not nearly as good, protoype holes seen at North Shore.  Double Plateau greens, Eden and Redan (reverse) holes.  The Road hole at NSCC was the inspiration for our work on the 9th at Raynor's Metairie C.C.  NS's Road Hole is amazing."

It should also be pointed out that when Jim Nagle (who most certainly is one of the best golf architecture researchers and interested analysts of historic courses and GCA of my acquaintence) made all those comments no one was familiar with the documentary material that was reposited in the New York Historical Society which most certainly did change the nature and interpretations of the architectural attribution of North Shore from this time!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:13:28 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #337 on: March 28, 2010, 09:49:13 AM »

It should also be pointed out that when Jim Nagle (who most certainly is one of the best golf architecture researchers and interested analysts of historic courses and GCA of my acquaintence) made all those comments no one was familiar with the documentary material that was reposited in the New York Historical Society which most certainly did change the nature and interpretations of the architectural attribution of North Shore from this time!


That is a good point, on the other hand that material does state Raynor and White did lay the course out together, so his interpretation might not change all that much.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 10:35:50 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #338 on: March 28, 2010, 10:04:54 AM »
I'm not very technically proficient with these things, but I will try to get somebody to post my photographs of the documents tomorrow. Hopefully they will come out clearly. They aren't terribly clear as flash photography wasn't allowed.

Let me know if you need any help.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #339 on: March 28, 2010, 10:20:54 AM »
Tom where in anything that you posted from Jim Nagle, does it state that "Raynor and White did lay the course out together?"

It not only DOESN'T state it, the name Raynor is not used anywhere within those three quotes as having laid out or being the architect of North Shore.

Rather they do say, "We have alot of information that leans toward Robert White as the original architect..." (1st one), "White's work at North Shore (always being disputed) is top-notch..." and "Robert White has done some very interesting work.  He has even incorporated those features typical of Raynor or Banks into his designs.  As we were investigating the work being completed at North Shore (see previous postings) it was found that White had alot to do with that course than previously thought..."; just no mention of Raynor at all as designer, co-designer, caddy, milkman, etc...!

I think it is disingenuous of you to state that they "state Raynor and White did lay the course out together..." when they clearly do not. Now other statements in that thread my say so, but these three do not.

Actually, any posts on that older thread discussing North Shore that state anything of that nature would also be wrong as Tom Paul pointed out, they were made without any knowledge of the documents that have now come to light and clearly state that Raynor was specifically hired by North Shore as architect and White was hired "To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct..."

"Superintend the building of a new one..." is NOT designing it. That was Raynor's job... Which is why the minutes CLEARLY state that "On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course..."


TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #340 on: March 28, 2010, 10:53:52 AM »
"That is a good point, on the other hand that material does state Raynor and White did lay the course out together, so his interpretation might not change all that much."



Tom MacWood:

One really does wonder why you would put a post on this thread on North Shore like #340 only quoting Nagle with no further comment. What exactly is your real purpose in doing that? And secondly for better clarity why didn't you also include in your list of Nagle's comments on #340 his comments about North Shore that are on this thread (Post #5) that was of course a number of years AFTER those old comments of his you did include?

Did you omit that comment of Nagles's on NS and White on this thread (Post #5) only because it shows he appears nowhere near as convinced recently of a White architectural attribution with North Shore as he was some years ago?   ??? ;)

I think what this now goes to is if you are simply engaging in purposefully deceptive analytical methods and argumentation with some of these clubs and their histories for some odd reasons of your own that are anything but clear or understandable to anyone on this website or out there in the real world. I suppose the next logical question is whether you even realize it or not, or at least to what extent you may realize it?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 11:00:31 AM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #341 on: March 28, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
I was just going to post something along the lines of what Phil Young just posted above.

It is undisputed that Raynor was HIRED to design NS and the club APPROVED his plans. White was hired to SUPERINTEND the construction and no doubt contributed to the final product as any superintendent/project architect/construction manager/resident golf pro would. Should White be given design credit because of his later career? IMO and that of most other reasonable minds,the answer is no.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #342 on: March 28, 2010, 10:59:49 AM »
In Robert White's article detailing the building of the greens at North Shore he said each green was built based upon carefully made plasticine models. We know CBM used plasticine models at NGLA and Lido. Did Raynor use plasticine models during his career? What about White?

I take it from the lack of responses that there is no evidence of Raynor or White making models. Being a civil engineer by trade I would be surprised if Raynor did make models. Could this point to greater CBM involvement, at least greater involvement than what is generally thought? After all this project was pre-1917 when Raynor went out on his own.

Ironically Tillinghast was known to make models at this time, and White has just come from Shawnee GC, which may explain the source for the mistaken Tilly attribution.

PS: So as to avoid an 18 paragraph post by Phil disputing my findings on Tilly and NS, let me clearly state I am not claiming Tilly designed NS. I also edited by previous post to prevent any further confusion.

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #343 on: March 28, 2010, 11:16:11 AM »
Tom MacWood:


Regarding your last post---are you the same guy who constantly cautions and counsels others on here not to engage in blatant speculation? Apparently you must think that applies to everyone else except you! ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #344 on: March 28, 2010, 12:08:56 PM »
That is a good point, on the other hand that material does state Raynor and White did lay the course out together, so his interpretation might not change all that much.

Actually, all it says is that White "Actively Cooperated" with Raynor in the layout of the golf course, which could mean a lot of other things besides design.

Does anyone else remember that the MacWood-Moriarity axis of power spent years trying to convince us that the term "laid out" meant staking it out on the ground?  And now, TMac ignores contracts as facts, etc. but continues to hammer a haphazardly worded statement that White actively cooperated and they have "laid out" a new golf course as proof White co-designed the course, when the same words were used to damn Hugh Wilson's contributions at Merion? ???

It is these sorts of inconsistencies and tactics in Tmacs method that personally drive me crazy and make me think his real agenda is to sucker us into endless debate. We have been had!  He should go back to Ohio State and take a course in logic, rather than political debate.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 12:36:17 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ed Oden

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #345 on: March 28, 2010, 01:08:06 PM »
In Robert White's article detailing the building of the greens at North Shore he said each green was built based upon carefully made plasticine models. We know CBM used plasticine models at NGLA and Lido. Did Raynor use plasticine models during his career? What about White?

I take it from the lack of responses that there is no evidence of Raynor or White making models. Being a civil engineer by trade I would be surprised if Raynor did make models. Could this point to greater CBM involvement, at least greater involvement than what is generally thought? After all this project was pre-1917 when Raynor went out on his own.

Ironically Tillinghast was known to make models at this time, and White has just come from Shawnee GC, which may explain the source for the mistaken Tilly attribution.

PS: So as to avoid an 18 paragraph post by Phil disputing my findings on Tilly and NS, let me clearly state I am not claiming Tilly designed NS. I also edited by previous post to prevent any further confusion.

Tom, you had a discussion with Mike Sweeney just a few days ago about Raynor's use of models at Mountain Lake... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43652.0/

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #346 on: March 28, 2010, 01:31:23 PM »
Mr Jeffrey Sir, Esq, PP of the ASGCA etc, and other impressive accomplishments too numerous to mention-----

Even though I am somewhat surprised that one of the most level-headed and nonconfrontational participants on this website----unlike myself---but very much such as yourself wrote the last post I must say I could not agree with you more on all of it.

When someone like you finally declares on here…….

“It is these sorts of inconsistencies and tactics in Tmacs method that personally drive me crazy and make me think his real agenda is to sucker us into endless debate. We have been had!  He should go back to Ohio State and take a course in logic, rather than political debate.”

……it appears the time has finally come when these kinds of inconsistencies and tactics in Tom MacWood’s method, as you call it, have pretty much been exposed and recognized by all on here for what they really are. And it appears, at this point, that he has pretty much lost all credibility with much of what he says endlessly despite so much good material evidence to the contrary offered by others who he tends to neglect and avoid with nothing offered but the same old questions apparently intended to pose under the guise of fact or conclusion.

And I notice it seems all who supported or encouraged him in the past in those kinds of suspect analyses, argumentations, tactics and methods have either gone away now or fallen silent. So, the good news may be now that his partner in method, DM, seems to have taken an extended or permanent powder from this website, he may be the only one left on here still engaging in such things. I guess this is just the natural way of the world with these kinds of things and the way it should be in the final analysis.


"Oh Baby, baby, baby, IF---I---COULD---JUST---TURN BACK THE HANDS OF TIME.....If-I-could-JUST-turn back the hands of time....Oh Baby, baby, BABY!"
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 01:43:42 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #347 on: March 28, 2010, 01:49:22 PM »

"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.

2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.

3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.

4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.

5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.

6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.

7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
 
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.

9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.

10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.

11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.

12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes



Here is the timeline Steve gave us from his transcription of the club records, and based on what he has given it seems indisputable that Raynor was hired to design the golf course, and among White's primary responsibilities was the superintending the construction of the golf course. That is very clear to me.

What isn't so clear is how the process actually unfolded. On January 26, 1915 Steve wrote the club approved plans by Raynor (with a budget of $37,500), but then goes to say the plan is subject to the approval of the president. That doesn't make a lot of sense from a couple of angles. If they are still waiting on the approval of the president, are the plans really approved by the club? And who is "the club," is that entire membership or a committee of some sort. Who is the president, and does he normally hold the ultimate power in all major decisions?  

Also on this date (1/26) when they approved the budget they approved Raynor's fee ($1800). Perhaps this situation was different at NS, but wouldn't Raynor present his final plan after being hired and not before? Isn't that normally how the process works? I'm wondering if we are misreading what took place on 1/26.

The next entry (3/15) is the most interesting to me, because this is the only entry that actually discusses the process of laying out (or designing) the golf course, and based on what Steve wrote it seems pretty clear it was a collaboration between White and Raynor.

Saying all that I'm wondering if CBM was more involved than what is reflected in Steve's notes, or the minutes. CBM did not accept a fee for his services, but obviously Raynor did. Has anyone seen the minutes of other CBM/Raynor designs, and how CBM's engagement is characterized, and likewise how Raynor's hire is characterized. And what was Raynor's fee on those other projects? $1800 was a lot of money back then, especially for a design only (in this case a redesign). That is a fee commanded by the top of the architects of the day (Raynor had yet to design a golf course), and that fee would included supervision of construction. Do we know if Raynor supervised construction? One should also remember this was a redesign of an existing golf course, and normally the fee is reduced for redesigns.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 02:02:58 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #348 on: March 28, 2010, 01:59:11 PM »
In Robert White's article detailing the building of the greens at North Shore he said each green was built based upon carefully made plasticine models. We know CBM used plasticine models at NGLA and Lido. Did Raynor use plasticine models during his career? What about White?

I take it from the lack of responses that there is no evidence of Raynor or White making models. Being a civil engineer by trade I would be surprised if Raynor did make models. Could this point to greater CBM involvement, at least greater involvement than what is generally thought? After all this project was pre-1917 when Raynor went out on his own.

Ironically Tillinghast was known to make models at this time, and White has just come from Shawnee GC, which may explain the source for the mistaken Tilly attribution.

PS: So as to avoid an 18 paragraph post by Phil disputing my findings on Tilly and NS, let me clearly state I am not claiming Tilly designed NS. I also edited by previous post to prevent any further confusion.

Tom, you had a discussion with Mike Sweeney just a few days ago about Raynor's use of models at Mountain Lake... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43652.0/

Ed
If you recall I asked the same question over there, and no one could answer it there either. Based on the fact Raynor apparently did not use models throughout his fairly prolific career and the fact that ML was prior to the date Raynor went out on his own (1917), I'm not convinced Raynor made those models either.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 02:22:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

Ed Oden

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #349 on: March 28, 2010, 02:42:04 PM »
In Robert White's article detailing the building of the greens at North Shore he said each green was built based upon carefully made plasticine models. We know CBM used plasticine models at NGLA and Lido. Did Raynor use plasticine models during his career? What about White?

I take it from the lack of responses that there is no evidence of Raynor or White making models. Being a civil engineer by trade I would be surprised if Raynor did make models. Could this point to greater CBM involvement, at least greater involvement than what is generally thought? After all this project was pre-1917 when Raynor went out on his own.

Ironically Tillinghast was known to make models at this time, and White has just come from Shawnee GC, which may explain the source for the mistaken Tilly attribution.

PS: So as to avoid an 18 paragraph post by Phil disputing my findings on Tilly and NS, let me clearly state I am not claiming Tilly designed NS. I also edited by previous post to prevent any further confusion.

Tom, you had a discussion with Mike Sweeney just a few days ago about Raynor's use of models at Mountain Lake... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43652.0/

Ed
If you recall I asked the same question over there, and no one could answer it there either. Based on the fact Raynor apparently did not use models throughout his fairly prolific career and the fact that ML was prior to the date Raynor went out on his own (1917), I'm not convinced Raynor made those models either.

Tom, in fairness, each time you asked the question on the other thread it as in the context of whether Raynor used models on any of his "other" designs.  I may be missing it, but I don't see that you ever questioned whether he used them at Mountain Lake.  Regardless, I have no idea nor do I care one way or the other.  I'm just pointing out that the discussion on Mountain Lake indicates some people (including the author of at least one club history) believe there is evidence to the contrary.  You are free to doubt that evidence if you wish.  But I'm not sure you should act as if it doesn't exist.

This is an honest question:  Is it 100% certain that CBM's use of models was his idea and not Raynor's.  That seems to me to be the way an engineer would think if he was looking to make sure a contractor built exactly what was designed.  Is there any evidence CBM used models before bringing Raynor on board?

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