[Mac Plumart]

I just checked out Ian Andrew's Caddyshack site.  Awesome stuff!!!  Thanks, Ian.

He said the characterisitics of Alison's work are cross bunkers and the like and BIG bunkers.  Check out these shots, 13, I think.  From the tee you've got to carry the marsh...but not too much as the hole doglegs left and if you go too long you are in those bunkers.



When you get close the the green...more big bunkers and a crazy green to work with. 



Based on all of this, I would conclude that Fazio appears to have done a nice job of sticking with Alison's original intent.  Thoughts?

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, YW. And No you can't stop playing what others tell you are dog tracks because they could be wrong. ANd occasionally you will find specific holes which in hindsight might teach you what you feel is great architecture.   

 I thought 15 at TPC Sawgrass was too much pussy for this dick. Especially at that point in the round. If I ever play there again, I would likely have to play it as a three shot hole. (and still make double or worse) The narrowness and shot demand with water right is too much for a golfer of my ability. Juxtapose that to the 16th, which is a very good hole (with a little too much reliance on a tree) and the 15th is tolerable, if only to get to the closers. As an aside, The old 15th at Pebble use to be somewhat of a breather hole for us higher handicaps. It was a moment in the round where if we were able to hit two relatively straight shots we had a chance for a decent score. (Par or birdie)  This is an example of ebb during flow. Opposed to TPC which is all balls to the wall test the best.(Really straightest BOOORRRRING golf)

Your comment about East Lake is likely correct that it has been dumbed down for the pros. The older courses never expected the speed race to get this out of control. Stop the insanity.

[Mac Plumart]

One more thing...

When I played Seaside, it appeared to me to be a links course. 

BUT...they overseeded it with rye to keep it green and the course was not fast and firm at all.  It was watered daily (I was informed) and it was very green and slow. 

That is the exact opposite of how a links course should be maintained, correct?

[Sean_A]

Questions…

Over the last few weeks, I have the great opportunity to play some very good golf courses…Augusta CC, Sea Island Seaside, and Sea Island Plantation.  Keeping things along the lines of courses to learn from, I would love to pick your guys brains on a few things…

#1—I’ve played a few Ross courses to date.  At three of them (Inverness, CC Of Columbus, and Augusta CC), I’ve noticed very similar greens especially in terms of undulations.  However, East Lake’s greens are distinctly flatter and faster.  Am I correct to assume that these undulating greens are Ross’ hallmark and Rees Jones altered East Lake’s greens to accommodate the PGA players while they tee it up at the Tour Championship?

#2—While at Sea Island, I read the clubs history in a book called “At the end of the oaks”…I think it was.  That book stated that Colt and Alison (Alison really) built the now current back nine at Seaside, which makes this the first Colt/Alision course I’ve played.  However, Fazio re-did it in 1999.  These greens are distinctly different any other Fazio I’ve played.  The question is this…are Colt/Alison known for their undulating and interesting greens and, therefore, these greens the product of them  OR is Fazio simply dynamic and uses a wide variety of architectural techniques to develop different features on courses and, therefore, these greens are Fazio’s idea?  

#3—Many of you told me not play Plantation as I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as Seaside.  I decided to play it anyway to see it and learn from it.  You all were right, Seaside is much better…but I am glad I played Plantation.  I would describe it as a nice bowl of vanilla ice cream, which is not too bad!

Mac

I have never heard Colt or Alison to be known for boldly contoured greens.  I am told Alison pushed the boat out a bit in Japan, but I have never seen a Japanese Alison.  I have never seen a Colt course I would describe as having strong contours on the greens.  As sets his greens are usually quite good, but in no way outstanding.  I suspect that if a course has the reputation of bold greens it is down more to green speeds accentuating contours more so than the original intent.  

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

One more thing...

When I played Seaside, it appeared to me to be a links course. 

BUT...they overseeded it with rye to keep it green and the course was not fast and firm at all.  It was watered daily (I was informed) and it was very green and slow. 

That is the exact opposite of how a links course should be maintained, correct?

You are correct.

It's senseless to water daily. Links courses should have a different maintenance meld than their modern aerial assault counterparts. Even every other day would still keep the grass green and allow those who cherish bounce and roll to enjoy a round every other day.

[Mac Plumart]

Well...another wonderful day!!

After taking care of business in the morning, I spent the afternoon with a good friend and client on a golfing mission.

First off, an important visit and paying respects to a true great in the game.



Then off to a "clunker" by some people standards.  Charlie Yates golf course in Atlanta.  My friend and I heard comments like, "why would you waste your time playing that course?" prior to our round...but let me say...it most certainly is not a "clunker".

It is an executive course, so it isn't going to make any top lists or anything like that.  But it is designed by Rees Jones...and say what you will about Mr. Jones...but for him to put together a wonderful course like this in the heart of Atlanta with greens fees of $27 is quite something.  The greens are very interesting and the bunkering is top notch. 

Also, it is my understanding that the people who maintain it have hopes of making it up to the sister course of Charlie Yates, East Lake.  So, the course is in wonderful shape for what it is.  The greens are smooth and roll true.  It is a very nice golf experience.

Here is the 4th...you hit from  a big time elevated tee box to a green that is front by a fairly deep bunker and water looms behind.  Kind of generates some drama and some butterflies as you tee it up.  Not bad for $27!!

[Mac Plumart]

Ok...quick question.

In a nutshell, is a green that is 18 feet wide, with water in play, to narrow?

Now here is the background...

It was 25 degrees in Atlanta today (12 with windchill).  My home course was closed today due to frost, so I had to look elsewhere to play.  So, I headed out to St. Marlo. 

St. Marlo is a Dennis Griffith course.  It is a friggin' bear of a course.  Major elevation changes, mega hilly and sloped fairways, narrow fairways, lots of water and small greens.  I generally try to avoid it because it isn't all that much "fun" to play in my opinion for a lot of reasons outlined in a recent thread talking about what people don't like on a golf course.

Nevertheless, one hole had me wondering about the architectural thoughts behind the green(s).  Specifically, the hole is the 14th.  It is a par 4 about 390 yards.  Tee box is elevated and the hole plays down hill until it hits a pond which front the green, from there the green is elevated.  The green is 18 FEET wide on the ends and 25 FEET wide in the middle.  The kicker is that there is about 3 feet of fringe in addition to this 18 feet of green and then slopes straight down to the fronting pond.  Behind the green are steep slopes which can serve as a backstop, but these backstops drop into grass bunkers with severe slopes...so you will have a beast of a chip back to that narrow green with water behind it.

So...on my approach I have 150 to160 to the pin.  Given the temp and wind I grab 6 iron.  I hit it flush for a few moments I think I may have holed it.  But it draws just a smidge.  Since the pin is in the front and in the exact center of the green, I've got 9 feet to work with before the fringe and then 3 more feet before I am wet.  My shot (which is exactly pin high) hits the fringe hops left, rolls down the hill into the water. 

I missed the pin by about 10 feet to the left and suffered a penalty.    I knew this was a potential outcome, so I didn't get mad.  I kept my cool, took my drop...got up and down and moved on.  But I kept thinking about this hole (and the many other small greens, many of which have water around them as well, on the course).

Are these small greens and water mix a wise idea for an architect to use liberally on a golf course?  I am thinking no, because it makes the course so challenging, frustating, etc.

Thoughts?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
Please don't say that you were the guy who left the range ball on Jones' grave. 

That hole sounds rinky dink at best and ricky dickulous at worst.  8 paces wide is too small unless there is some alternate place on the green that's wider.

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...

No, I didn't leave anything at Bobby Jones' grave.  I think leaving things there is pretty neat...but I don't get it 100%.

Thanks for the thoughts on the hole.  I thought the same, but didn't want to get overly critical during my round and let it eat me up and, therefore, potentially ruin the next holes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
I have no problems with the offerings either, but a range ball is kind of tacky.

As for not being too critical when playing, that's always a smart move, there's plenty of time at the end of a round to do an in depth interview with yourself about what you liked and didn't like, no sense gumming up the works while you're out there.

There was (still is) a hole on a pretty top-notch course in N. Mass that sounds very much like the one you mentioned. It is a near impossibility for a low ball hitter to have any chance of hitting and sticking, unless you played the hole right after a watering, natural or otherwise.

As a low ball hitter, that hole was the main reason I never went back to that course until many years later, after a trajectory change.    I still don't understand the rationale behind such holes?? What is the architect thinking?

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks to a GCA member, I had the great opportunity to play Secession this weekend (Thanks a million Joel).  Here is one of the best holes on the course...accompanied with perhaps the funniest moment of the round.

Here is the tee shot on 14...



Followed by the approach (what a great shot)...



And here is the funny part.  How in the heck do you play this shot?!?!?  Thanks for the memory Mark!!!

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