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James Boon

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The definition of a Cape hole?
« on: October 25, 2009, 12:15:43 PM »
This one has always confused me to be honest. I’ve read or heard so many people refer to a cape hole as one which involves a diagonal carry from the tee, however I always thought that its should be a hole with a green sticking out into a lake? Afterall the definition of the word cape is “A point or head of land projecting into a body of water.” However a quick Google search found this…
http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/bldef_capehole.htm

It is only now on reading The Evangelist of Golf that I realise why there is this confusion. As I’m sure most of you will know, the original 14th at NGLA, known as the Cape hole, did have a green that jutted out into Sebonak Creek, but this was replaced by one inland when a new road to the clubhouse was built. However, the diagonal carry from the tee remains, and so it is this characteristic that has taken over as the definition of a Cape hole. Funny thing is, though I’ve not played NGLA, from the aerial photos, the diagonal carry doesn’t actually look that pronounced, though Philip's recent pictures show it to be quite pronounced?

Etymology is a funny old thing, and the definition of words does change from time to time. But for me, it’s the old definition of a green jutting out into a water hazard that should be the true definition? What does everyone think?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 01:50:46 PM »
Well, think about the myriad capes of the world.  Is Cape Cod of similar configuration to Cape Horn to Cabo del sol?  My understanding was that it had more to do with the fairway than the green.  Let's hear what the rest of the inmates have to say.
Coming in 2024
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~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 02:19:37 PM »
Merriam-Webster:: a point or extension of land jutting out into water as a peninsula or as a projecting point


George Bahto: "The ‘Cape’ hole, according to Macdonald, was first labeled that (not first designed) when he built the 14th at NGLA. Most people think it is the angle of the tee-ball play that makes it a ‘Cape hole’ – not true. The word ‘cape’ refers to a body of land jutting into a body of water, forming a small peninsula. Macdonald 14th ‘Cape’ green originally jutted into the bay, but was subsequently moved in the late 1920s for two reasons. One was that downwind, big hitters were attempting to drive the green. The second was the necessity of constructing a new access road along the edge of the shoreline. Macdonald moved the green to the left further onto shore and surrounded it with sand. Then, Raynor (a civil engineer also) designed a new access road leading to the front gate. Cape holes come in a variety of designs. The 14th at Fishers Island, for example, requires the tee-ball to flirt close to the edge of a hazard rather than successfully attempt a carry. Even greens that jut out into midair on the edge of a precipice can be considered ‘Cape-style greens’ – the second green (not the second hole) at Yale was called just that in an early verbal description."

Seems pretty clear what CBM had in mind.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 02:50:32 PM »
originally, yes.  Is the cape on Bermuda the same?  I don't believe the green juts quite so much.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 03:57:27 PM »
From this sites review:



If you look at an aerial you'll see it jutting out into the 'Sargasso Sea'..
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael Rossi

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:48:23 PM »
I thought it was this:

Anthony Gray

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 05:46:06 PM »


  Good topic. So if you say it is a cape tee shot, then it refers to a shot that is over a hazard and allows you to bite off as much as you can. Correct? So are Cape Holes now more called Cape holes because of drives over hazards or because of the green's position into a hazard?

  Anthony

 

Brian_Ewen

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 05:50:27 PM »
I thought it was this .....


Padraig Dooley

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 05:58:00 PM »
The 14th Cape at Chicago GC



There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

R.S._Barker

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 06:33:10 PM »
Every single image in this thread shows varying styles - but as long as the green complex "juts" outward causing an angled shot into the green complex over water/bunker/rough it is considered a Cape hole. Some are sublime, some are blatant, yet all share the same trademark design.

Cheers,

George_Bahto

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 06:59:50 PM »
The 14th Chicago Golf, the Seth Raynor re-do has the Cape green - hole-14 - jutting out into a hazard - the hazard in this case is greenside sand simulating “jutting out into water”

The original yardage at Chicago-14 was to be 356, according to a drawing of the Walker Cup course. One of the reasons for the Raynor re-do of the course is that Chicago Golf was awarded the Walker Cup - also because the old Macdonald course      (The Old Macdonald Course - hah)      .....  had become antiquated (I think less than 6500 - yds) and the old Macdonald routing (hah - sorry) was those old ”slicers” holes of CBM.

So, often a “Cape green” simulated the dictionary “cape” definition ..... yes the great 2nd green at Yale as is the 5th !  Banks wrote it up as a Cape green” in his 1931 hole by hole:

Hole 2: "Green: natural to the right - but similar to "Cape" overall"


The “diagonal drive over a hazard” definition of a Cape Hole is not entirely wrong, I guess (I have a hard time writing that). It has become an evolution over the years.

I guess, after the NGLA Cape green was moved inland because of the new road was to the new gate,  the yacht basin and the old beach club   and the 14th NGLa was still called “Cape,” people then believed the diagonal drive as the definitive feature of the hole.


Over the years more and more architects and clubs called their diagonals as Capes.

James, the diagonal drive at National is quite pronounced.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 07:13:45 PM »
Quote
George_Bahto
So, often a “Cape green” simulated the dictionary “cape” definition ..... yes the great 2nd green at Yale as is the 5th !  Banks wrote it up as a Cape green” in his 1931 hole by hole:


George,
Did you mean 2nd and 8th?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 07:19:12 PM »
Jim, you're right ......   (even though you are a "lefty" (golfer) -  :P

Banks called the 8th-Yale:  "combination green - "Cape" and "Redan" strategy"

boy Jim, for a Hotchkiss English Professor who only worked with Raynor a short tiime, Banks was right on, wasn't he
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 07:32:45 PM »
George,
There's something to be said for learning,  ;D  and it sure makes it easier to explain yourself when you possess an English Professor's command of the language. I really admire Banks, the idea of chucking a nice, safe position at Hotchkiss and running away with the Raynor and CB 'circus' must have taken some real guts, and driven his family nuts.   



p.s. The 8th is my favorite hole on the golf course, even though it doesn't favor a draw.  ;)

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 07:54:59 PM »
J Kennedy: I really admire Banks, the idea of chucking a nice, safe position at Hotchkiss and running away with the Raynor and CB 'circus' must have taken some real guts, and driven his family nuts


for those who do not know, Banks taught English for about 17 years at The Hotchkiss School (were he attended prep-school), after graduating from Yale. Then left to join raynro after they met when they were building the Hotchkiss course (1923-1924)

I still haven’t been able to pin down the exact time he left Hotchkiss to join the Raynor-Macdonald circus (I really like that one, Jim) even though I have all the Hotchkiss bulletins and year books .etc.

The best I can tell is that Banks worked part time for Raynor during the 1924 summer vacation, went back to Hotchkiss for a bit to turn over his work on the endowment program and left there in 1925.

Now Seth died in January 1926 - leaving Banks with probably a year at best with Raynor. Incredible

For hands-on architects Raynor and Banks had nearly 30 course in various conditions of construction at the time Raynor died ......... from 2 course in Hawaii in the west to Long Island in the east - from Milwaukee in the north to Yeamans Hall in the south -

How long would it have taken for Raynor to get to Hawaii from Long Island ???

Aside: I have turned up about 28 courses Raynor never received credit for building - just last week, a muni not far from Mountain Lake, in FL. He was truly the living definition of the word “reticent”
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill_McBride

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2009, 08:23:29 PM »
From this sites review:



If you look at an aerial you'll see it jutting out into the 'Sargasso Sea'..

First a diagonal tee shot from the tee, followed by a diagonal shot to the green.

DMoriarty

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 09:32:27 PM »
As George notes in his book, Macdonald's understanding of the hole was quite specific.   Macdonald's and Whigham's 1914 Golf Illustrated article on on the Cape (in their all too brief Representative American Golf Holes series) leaves no doubt about what they considered a Cape Hole:

The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon three sides.

Many prominent designers and course builders adopted Macdonald's and Whigham's definition of a cape, although they obviously often substituted bunkers or other trouble the water surrounding three sides.    CBM, Raynor, and apparently Banks built many to fit this mold.   In the mid-20's when increasing traffic on Ardmore Avenue necessitated the change, Wilson replaced the CBM style "Alps" 10th at Merion with a CBM style "Cape" hole.  Flynn described the cape similarly and noted that it was one of his three basic hole concepts for par fours (along with the elbow and dogleg,) and Tillinghast did so as well.  

There are also many other fine early examples of the concept in the ground, including a short par four at Pine Valley that reportedly fits the mold (not sure if it was one of the few CBM suggestions that Crump reportedly followed there.)  While I am not sure he identified it as such, Thomas built a heck of a cape hole at Riviera's 10th.  When thinking about how Prairie Dunes must have played as a Nine Hole course, I was struck by how much the 3rd (now the 6th) must have felt like a cape in the original sense, although incredibly Maxwell created this sensation using mostly contours.  The 12th at Rustic is very cape-like (in the original sense) but the back is guarded by nothing but ground slope away (and in ideal conditions nothing else is needed.)   Other examples abound.  It is really a terrific hole concept and works wonderfully on a short par 4, providing a fan of options where oftentimes the full consequences of the drive are not fully felt until the second.  

As Macdonald described in Scotland's Gift (and as George succinctly reports in his terrific book) the Cape hole lost its cape green not long after its creation.  This left the hole with a diagonal carry off the tee where one could get closer to the green the more one cut off, and perhaps this accounted for the eventual change in understanding of the concept.    

In my opinion we've lost some things in translation.   While some of Macdonald's capes had a diagonal carry over trouble (Mid-Ocean and NGLA most notably) there was more to the hole than just cutting of distance.   The trick was understanding one's abilities and executing one's shot to not only get close, but also to get the best angle into the green.   So for example at NGLA's Cape the most daring carry might leave the shortest shot but the absolute worst angle to the green unless the golfer could carry all the way almost even with the green.   Conversely a less daring but well placed shot might leave a slightly longer shot but a much better angle, while the safest carry might leave the longest shot and a difficult angle.   If I recall correctly, George noted that some cape greens favored the angle more from the outside while some (Mid Ocean?) favored the angle from more inside.

Here is how Whigham described the various choices presented to the golfer in 1909:

The same principle is applied at the 5th hole, which will be perhaps the most celebrated in the country. The actual distance from tee to flag is about 290 yards—one would have said the worst possible distance for a hole—but it works out beautifully. The hazard in this case is water. Here it is impossible quite to reach the green, but the fine driver if he likes to take a risk and go almost straight for the hole, may get within putting distance and so have a good chance for a three. But the least slice will carry his ball into Sebonac Creek; or if he fails to get 240 yards he will have a difficult little pitch shot onto the promontory. The man who can drive 200 yards may prefer to play fairly well to the left so as to be sure of opening the hole; but then he has a long approach onto the promontory. Finally, the short driver can get across the water by playing well to the left and carrying less than 100 yards; but he has a long second to play and may easily take a five. In fact, the hole is either a three or a four or a five, according to the way the tee shot is played.


So it wasn't just about cutting off as much as possible to get closer to the hole.  It was about balancing the temptation of getting as close with the restraint of knowing one's game and choosing the best line and angle.  And then of course the golfer had to execute, and not just on the drive.

Unfortunately, like many of our supposed "strategic options" the concept of the cape has been dumbed down to simply cutting a corner to get a shorter shot in.  

Here is a stitched photo of the plasticine model of the hole, from the article mentioned above:


Here is Whigham's diagram of the tee options from his 1909 Scribner's article:

« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 12:27:01 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Mayhugh

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2009, 09:56:31 PM »
David,
Thanks for posting the photo of the model. Really cool.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2009, 10:30:57 PM »
Aside: I have turned up about 28 courses Raynor never received credit for building - just last week, a muni not far from Mountain Lake, in FL. He was truly the living definition of the word “reticent”

George, are any of those courses in Minnesota? Considering that he designed three in our state, I figured it's possible he might have slipped in another one or two while no one was looking...
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Phil_the_Author

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 07:27:57 AM »
Tilly had a bit of a different take on defining what a "Cape" hole is. For the most part, he viewed it as a two-shotter with a particular bend to the hole that was different than a "dog-leg" or "elbow" hole. After defining those in his 1917 booklet "Planning The Golf Course" he wrote:

"There is still a third variation, where a corner is formed close by the green itself, usually by the encroachment of a hillside or a sandy waste, and this type is known as a Cape hole."

Notev the distinction in design features from what has been shown in some of the photos above. To Tilly, simply because the a greeen was offset with a fronting bunker and some rough didn't fit HIS definition of a Cape. In his mind the fronting area needed to be "waste" or simulated as such rather than a clearly manufactured hazard. It was to mimic the natural features found by a green that juts out into the water which was not to be found on inland courses.

In 1922/23 he built a Cape hole at brook Hollow with a small copse of trees serving as this natuarl hazard, a variation then on his own definiotion.

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 10:50:36 AM »
Phil:

Yes, Tillie certainly did have something of a different opinion on what a cape hole was (different from what apparently most of us THINK the opinions of others of his time were).

I've always liked Tillie's opinions and definitions of the various types of holes simply because they seem to be more detailed and complete but it would be interesting to know to what extent other architects of his time agreed with his definitions.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 11:17:00 AM »
Phil,
I think it's hard to visualize the difference in what Tillie said and the Cape green, there really doesn't seem to be any. What does it matter if the front is encroached by a mound or sandy waste vs. what CBM or SR or CB used, the strategy is still the same.

Secondly, you then say that he thought using a sandy waste was more in keeping with using a water hazard than manufactured bunkering, but again, they all play the same. Even Tillie used a tree, so what the heck was he talking about?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2009, 11:26:12 AM »
I think what Tillie was saying is that even if different types of architectural features (water (water hazards), sandy areas not considered to be hazards (bunkers), mounds, bunkers, trees etc) often seems to some to be synonymous and completely interchangeable architectural features that in the minds of some or perhaps most golfers they really are not for reasons that should be pretty obvious that are reflected within the Rules of Golf, among other things.

For instance, would I (or presumably numerous other golfers) think somewhat differently about strategy if a green was pretty much surrounded by water rather than a sandy area for instance?  You bet I would!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:28:33 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 11:40:15 AM »
You're saying that sandy areas, bunkers, waste areas, mounds are all synonymous, therefore they all play alike when used in the same configuration.  It Tillie's definiton created a third style of Cape, then why was it necessary to "mimic the natural features found by a green that juts out into the water" ?

The green is not surrounded by water, but if any other medium was used in place of H2O the same safe approach would still present itself. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:42:25 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The definition of a Cape hole?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2009, 11:44:16 AM »
I'm not sure who you are expecting to answer your #23---Phil, me or someone else.

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