News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« on: October 15, 2009, 10:33:36 AM »
The confessions thread started with a picture of a JN course from the 80's in Myrtle Beach, which in the late 80-90's was famous for its "fru-fru" in a constant bid of one upmanship, as I found out when I did Wild Wing there.  The underlying theme of that thread is that 90's style design is bad.

Okay, I am not even arguing that (too much) but I want to put that in perspective relative to signature elements of other eras not so well percieved right now.

Specifically, is excessive mounding of the 80-90's worse than"

Geometric Design of the 1890's?

Tillie Bunker removal of the 30's?

The RB Harris design for maintenance in the 30's-50's?  (also note how Maxwell style mimics this, after starting with homage to NGLA at Dornick Hills)

"Runway tees" and "3 or 4 backdrop mounds to each green" of the 50's-60's?

Big Greens (often elevated) and other maintenance related design elements that were popular in the 60's?

Now I know that these elements overlap by decade, with some lingering, and some dates wrong.  But there are no wrong answers, its just opinions.  Before espousing those opinions, how about a generalized bottom (worst -1) to top (best - 6) rating of those well known signature features of eras/decades that aren't the golden age or the modern renaisance that most here believe are the two best eras of gca.

As always, thanks in advance, and don't show up with rotten tomatoes!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 10:48:19 AM »
Tiger Woods' par five submission to Golf Digest?

I'd say Runway Tees...hate 'em!
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 10:54:15 AM »
Jeff,

You mention RB Harris, and I am curious if you think that RB Harris might have had an influence on RT Jones, or visa versa?

The total site preparation, and the D-12 features that Harris built were also built by Jones, although somewhat less artifical in appearance. Was this something that happened simultaneously, with each man developing the concepts on their own, or was there an influence back and forth?

I used to play Orchard Hills in Waukegan, Harris' first golf course I believe, built in 1930. All the features were quite like what you might see from a Dev Emmet course. That was a fun little course. But latter, of course, Harris would completely regrade entire sites and build formulaic golf courses. At Midlane we had occassion to dig some fairly deep holes, and we found places where he layed 5 feet of clay fill over the original topsoil layers! I couldn't believe that he actually put fill on top of topsoil, and these were way outside the playing corridors, which indicated to me that he was making some very big cuts and fills overall, to make the site conform to the design, rather than the opposite.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 10:57:09 AM »
I volunteer William Harries' slanted inverted bowl greens...found on many munis in western New York, they are devoid of any subtlety, break, and interest...See Brighton Park, Beaver Island and Audubon.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 11:07:05 AM »
Jeff. Re; mounding 1990 v. Angular, its my impression that the juxtaposition to nature is acceptable because there's no pretense of trying to mimic nature. While the repetitive mounding typical of the era (what I assume you are referring to) is too simplistic in its attempt to mimic nature (dunescape). The other aspect that supercedes is the placement of said hideous mounding.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 11:16:47 AM »
Adam,

Not sure I agree 100% with you, but that is one of the deepest and philosophic gca thoughts ever posted here!  I was once told by a critic that the mounding at Wild Wing was in fact, okay, because it makes no attempt to blend in (couldn't really on a flat site)

I also agree that some of my favorite shaping comes when a rectangular tee is fit in a slope.  The natural variation of slopes between the two (steeper where the tee is cut into a higher bank, or filled on a downslope) actually kind of looks cool - much better than the perfectly rounded mounds and slopes that might result from trying to mimic the landforms with a rounder, free form tee shape. Just MHO.

I would have to give some thought at to the hideous placement vs. the geometric cross bunkers 100 yards from the tee typical of many 1890's courses.  Philosophically, those weren't all that good to me, while I understand why some of the mounds placed in the 90's were there, even the string along entire fw.  In essence, once you build and artifical mound for, lets say, bunker support, you either have to accept that this is artificial and live with it, perhaps trying to blend out the slopes, or keep adding mounds/ridges, etc. in hopes of creating something that looks like it was a natural ridge.  But then, most of us couldn't resist "sculpting" those until they looked unnatural.

Will have to give some thought to the RBH-RTJ connection, but in talking with KN about their days there, I never heard them say there was much cross connection. I do recall them saying that his philosophy changed drastically and quickly once he bought a few golf courses in the depression.  After that, he was all about maintenance production.

I wonder if there are any photos of his early stuff around before he had the change?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 11:32:51 AM »
I have this 1947 quote from Robert Bruce Harris in my files:

"For a good many years, much of golf architecture in this country has suffered from a "finality complex".  That complex was that the zenith of golf course architecture had been reached in Scotland and everything we did had to be an imitation of their courses......I think its high time we stopped imitating the old traditions in golf design and build courses that will satisfy our player demand, our pocketbooks, our maintenance machinery and our peculiar American climatic and topographical conditions."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 11:41:58 AM »
Besides browed bunkers and high mounds with long rough, heavily contoured greens maintained at 10'+.  I also think that the drainage to create certain looks with the attendant catch basins are poor design (I'd rather have half the slope and more sedate appearance than hitting out of divots and taking drops).

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 11:45:42 AM »
In his treatise on Architecture in the Chicago District written in 1915, William Langford writes somewhat similarly but maintains the link to nature more than RBH. 

"It doesn't follow that because a yawning sand pit is a naturally pleasing and effective hazard on seaside links that the same feature will be as pleasing in appearance in the fertile prairies of northern Illinois.  As the natural features in this locality consist of rolling ground, ridges, brooks, small ponds and abandoned clay and gravel pits, so should our Chicago hazards endeavor to be, as far as possible, imitations of these familiar and omnipresent features.  Such a result can only be achieved by a careful and appreciative study of the natural features of the adjacent countryside and hazards that conform to and are imitations of their surroundings."

Some have speculated that his deep hazards are knockoffs of Raynor, but there is no evidence he ever met him, or followed his career. To me, this suggests that his gentle hazards are reflections of the countryside, and his steep ones are attempts to mimic small quarries found in those days all over the Midwest.

In the 40's both Harris and Langford wrote of "streamlined" design.  Golf course architect's of the WWII era were very interested in "modernization" and designing something completely new, rather than a knockoff.  It appears that they felt as strongly about getting away from the traditions of gca then as some feel about returning to it now.  Given the time frame, and knowing that industrial designers like Raymond Loewy were shrouding steam locos to make passenger trains look more like new airliners, and were also active in other areas of industrial design, and that cars were going to newer designs, etc. I was struck how they must have been influenced by other design areas more than old Scottish golf courses, which they may have never seen, unlike CBM.


BTW, according to Ron Whitten, Langford had formulas for nearly everything, from ideal routings to width of green openings, to calculating uphill and downhill shots. He mentions fair and scientific golf often in just the few writings I have seen.  As an aside, gca William Mitchell worked for him and I know an old timer who worked with Mitchell and told me that "Mitchell had a formula for everything, listing about the same things Whitten listed for Langford!  Dick Nugent also had similar forumulas for the same things, which I think came from RBH, so it seems that the Chicago guys were all influencing each other to some degree.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 11:47:34 AM »
Besides browed bunkers and high mounds with long rough, heavily contoured greens maintained at 10'+.  I also think that the drainage to create certain looks with the attendant catch basins are poor design (I'd rather have half the slope and more sedate appearance than hitting out of divots and taking drops).

Lou,

And this from a guy who has complained about wet spots at GSW for years?  Good drainage is not bad design.......

And, for the record, how many times have you actually had to move a ball from a CB rim in your decades of golf and thousands of rounds?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 11:54:01 AM »
Jeff,

Those are some really fascinating remarks from Harris and Langford.

I heard that the Playboy Club has just restored the RB Harris course there. People still love playing those designs.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 12:14:25 PM »
It's not the geometric design of the 1890s, but the relentless, repetitious placement of three fairway bunkers on each the left and the right of the landing zone for drives, might as well be considered geometric when viewed on Google Earth. It has to be the worst design style ever from the fun spectrum of golf. You might as well be bowling, since you have virtual gutters on each side.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 12:22:30 PM »
Below is an aerial of the back nine at Pacific Grove. The hole I'm about to reference is the second corridor from the top. Basically the lower right half of the top left quadrant of the entire picture.



Jeff, Your response brought to mind the 13th hole at Pacific Grove. It's strategic use of just two mounds illustrates a better use of mounds compared to where I think many of the 1980's-90's GCA's went over board. The first mound is on the left edge of fwy and is less visible because it is part of that strip of dune sandy area (just left of the white line in the pix) The other mound is darker green and resides green front left (Just at the start of the cart path) To top it all off the entire rear of the hole is back dropped with iceplant covered dunes. Ironically the hole has the same elements the 1990 Archie utilized and is criticized for, but, because it's natural, used sparingly and not forced onto the land, the feeling one gets is completely different. Here's a pic from behind the hole from facebook. Not sure if it's viewable without access.

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=pacific+grove+golf+links&init=quick#/photo.php?pid=2251907&id=117806809029

The "pocket book" (from RBH) comment is how I rationalize the 1990 era's excessive earth moving. Justifying a design fee is still omnipresent today. Behr warned of Whims of the day architects and I believe Mr. Harris' quote exemplifies that and shows more EGO than a respectful understanding of the principles at work, which make for quality GCA. (Ok maybe I went to far. I was on a roll)  :o

Afterall, What is a principle but a formula of a specific nature?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matt_Ward

Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 12:33:57 PM »
Jeff:

Have to say the RTJ / Dick Wilson period of the big brawny layouts (50's and 60's) -- some of which were carried out by RTJ with the runway tees, the monstrous greens with little real mystery and the predictable and formulais bunkering style with the over-used style of mounds to serve as a backdrops to many of the holes.

Often times such layouts were of the 7,000+ yard variety (hence "championship" tag layouts) and few have lasted in the colective memory in terms of meaningful design. No doubt there are exceptions but when you add up the overall batting average it is quite low. Abysmally low.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
"Chocolate drop" mounds at places like Grand Cypress golf course in Orlando.  Fairly early Nicklaus.

Courses that create giant mounds of fill in the desert and cut a green halfway up one side and a tee in the other side.  Nicklaus course at PGA West.

Repetitious holes with fairway bunker left and right, greenside bunkers at 7 o'clock and 4 o'clock.  RTJ at Jacaranda in Florida.  Every hole it seemed.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 01:03:18 PM »
Jeff,

I do appreciate good drainage more than most.  I was not thinking of your work with my comments.  As to how many times I've had to take drops, quite often on GSW's #3 where I miss the green left more than half the time.  Overall, .01%, maybe?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 01:22:46 PM »
Jeff:

Personally, I believe the Desmond Muirhead Symbolic style of the late 1980's is the worst design style of all time ... it didn't have much of anything to do with golf.

But I'll try to rank the six you mentioned, since no one else has:

Best - Tilinghast's bunker removals of the 1930's.  Most of the bunkers he removed were just eye candy.

Then - Runway tees and mounded backdrops.  I don't think of those together, really.  The runway tees were functional and cost-effective and only offended the eye, not the golf.

Then - The big-green 1960's.  I'm not a fan of them, because they minimized the importance of playing for an angle of approach.  But so did the other styles to come.

Then - Excess mounding of the 1980's and 90's.  Mostly a waste of money because it was out of play; plus offensive to Nature.

Worst - For me it's a toss-up between the Robert Bruce Harris style and the geometric design of the 1890's.  I guess the tiebreaker is how far you carry the geometric design.  Dragon's teeth in the bunkers and square greens are hideous; but it's the bunkering at predictable places that leads to boring design.  Harris' insistence on keeping the bunkers ten or fifteen feet away from the greens pretty much made his greenside hazards irrelevant.  I have never played one of those courses to understand just how insipid they were, or whether some other design feature helped to make up for this loss.


Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 02:49:50 PM »
What was that Cupp course on Hilton Head Island that "featured" Pyramid "mounding?" Literally pyramids, sharp edges and all.
Would that be an example of geometric?
Is the Cupp course still there?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 03:32:50 PM »
I volunteer William Harries' slanted inverted bowl greens...found on many munis in western New York, they are devoid of any subtlety, break, and interest...See Brighton Park, Beaver Island and Audubon.

You're right, but consider the budgets with which he had to work.  Tonawanda (espcially) was a factory town and probably didn't have much $$$.  As far as Beaver Island State Park goes, no idea why New York State built a course with such boring greens.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the absolute worst design style ever?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 03:35:31 PM »
What is the absolute worst design style ever?

Easy  -  those Green Commitee and architects that have ruined great courses in the name of "beautifcation".

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1930s/1930/3007128.pdf

A quote from the article, "To see a stretch of country called a golf course bare and lacking in tree growth and planting material of any kind is a monotonous and an unattractive picture even if well carpeted with grass. In fact, the sight of such a course to the average  observer brings about criticism at once. It must be admitted that it is not always easy to plant trees and otherwise improve the landscape. There is a great deal of expense and labor involved—but the investment is worth while."
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 03:40:50 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back