News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


SteveSailer

Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« on: April 28, 2002, 09:46:27 PM »
I just got back from playing Rustic Canyon in Moorpark, NW of LA. A few thoughts:

1. It's perfectly ready for play - the fairways are terrific - although they are only open for tee times from 8-noon each day, and they are going fast. Next weekend is all sold out, as is Thursday. 805-530-0221.

2. The greens fees are - by California standards - amazing: $30 weekdays, $40 weekends to walk (carts are $10 more). I fear that these are too low for the market - Rustic Canyon may end up like Los Verdes, the $20 course on the Palos Verdes Peninsula with beautiful ocean views, but I've never, ever, gotten a tee time before twilight.

3. Right now there is a total of amenities there, so don't expect much. Bring lots of drinks because there was no drinking water to be had outside of the trailer that serves as a temporary clubhouse. It was a gorgeous zero humidity day today, and I blew threw the five cans I brought and wished I'd brought a lot more.

4. I loooove the hard sand-based turf, in part because I can't hit the ball fat off it. I had my most consistent ball-striking day since playing Whistling Straits several years ago (which is also sand-based).

5. I also very much like how building on sand allows so many undulations around the greens, because it drains so well. And the speed of the big bent-grass chipping areas causes all sorts of interesting puzzles. The course doesn't appear to play that fast, partly because once you get within 100 yards, you've got to think hard about whether you'll float it in there or try to manufacture some sort of, say, 80 yard superchip with a 6 iron.

6. Although the greens can be hard to hold with conventional aerial approaches, they don't put that fast at present. That was fine with me because some of the undulations are fierce, especially for a budget-price public course.

Now to compare Rustic Canyon to Barona Creek:

A. The sand-based turf is a plus for Rustic.

B. Settting: They are in fairly similar Southern California back country valleys, with virtual no housing. If you like SoCal nature, they are both quite attractive.Rustic is in a more linear valley, so views are somewhat more limited than Barona. (Don't shoot me, but for setting I'd give the nod over both to Ted Robinson's Robinson Ranch Valley course).

C. Attractiveness - Barona had a bigger budget and very little intereference from environmental regulators (since it is on Indian Nation land). Todd Eckenrode made excellent use of his opportunity, moving a lot of big oak trees from other parts of the reservation (but they don't interfere much with play), pushing more land around, and building water features including an artificial stream. Plus, he had some fascinating rock outcroppings to work with. He worked very hard on aesthetics, so that most holes are quite vivid looking.

Rustic has fewer postcard holes, although . In fact, to the first time player, the course can be fairly mysterious looking, with some slightly St. Andrew's-like bunkers that can escape notice. There are only a few trees and no rocks. But there is plenty of movement to the land, although the overall slope is from high in the back nine to low in the front nine.

On both courses, cart paths are pretty well hidden, although Rustic's white paths were a little hard on my eyes on today's very bright day. I'm definitely bringing my sunglasses next time.

Overall, aesthetically, both courses got more than full value from their budgets, with Barona having the bigger budget.

D. Walkability - A nod to Rustic, although it does have a 234 foot elevation chance from 4 up to 13.

E. Wind - I wouldn't want to judge from just one round at each. I believe Barona is more inland and more surrounded by high peaks, but Rustic is in a lower but fairly narrow N-S valley. So, I don't know which would have the more interesting wind conditions.

F. Environmental screw-ups - New California courses routinely get crucified by regulatory agencies, most notably Ocean Trails, which was allowed to turf over only 80 acres out of 175 available, and was forced to plant vicious sage brush between each fairway, causing way too many lost balls. Robinson Ranch Valley (the better of the two RR courses) is also messed up by having to have sage brush too close to the fairways. The Barona Indians don't have to worry particularly about regulations and lawsuits, plus they respect their land too much to commit any major environmental gaffes. I also didn't notice any obvious bad design caused by environmental rules at Rustic either.

G. Strategy - I'll just declare this a toss-up. Both have far more strategy than I could decipher in one round apiece. Both have some wiiiide fairways.

H. Value - Both are awfully high in value per greens fee dollar for the California market. I'd give the nod to Rustic, because it is about 33% lower (for cart riders on weekends), and a lot cheaper for walkers on weekdays. Although Rustic is farther from LA than Barona is from San Diego, it is freeway-close. Plus, LA is just vastly larger than San Diego.

In summary, they both must rank among the top 5 public courses south of the Monterey Peninsula.

Steve Sailer

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2002, 11:10:54 PM »
Steve, Glad you enjoyed Rustic Canyon, but you lose big points with me for even comparing it with Robinson Ranch in the same verse.

Shame on you! :) ((You actually didn't think I was goign to let you get away with that did you??)

Lets get together soon for a round in say two weeks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2002, 03:32:58 AM »
Something might need to be said here that was touched on in the first post and is not exactly architectural.

That is that to my knowledge the idea of Rustic Canyon as an offering and return to "reasonably priced" golf with a high level architectural golf course just may have been the brainchild of Geoff Shackelford and may go quite far back in time as a dream.

From the remarks of Steve Sailer and the mention of the green fees it would seem to be a dream come true.

So if what I'm saying is true, all of you out in So Cal and all of you sitting at your computer desks looking in on Golfclubatlas should get up now and give Geoff Shackelford a standing ovation!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2002, 07:39:59 AM »
As a paying customer of California public golf, it goes beyond a standing ovation, Tom.  If I have a next child, it's Geoff Shackelford Huckaby.  I don't care if it's a girl.   ;)

And Steve - thank you VERY much for the comparison.  I was one of the GCA yokels at Barona, and it looks like I'm gonna try and play Rustic in a trip down there in June.  I'll have to compare notes at that point.

Cheers!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2002, 10:06:39 AM »
Steve as you and JakaB had previously mentioned about Barona, bnches and water coolers on every other hole or more should be mandatory.  I can't believe that Barona management would be so short sighted as to purposely eliminate those in favor of the cart and beverage lady usage.  I am sure with the fact that Rustic C is conducive to walking that they will be wise with comfort stations of water and benches as soon as they get operations fully underway.  If not, that would be a condradiction and conflict with the design that is a nice walk through a wonderful golf course.  They really shouldn't even open the course to the public with out the water and benches.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2002, 10:17:25 AM »
RJD - Barona is cartball, make no mistake about it.  They were actually shocked when I inquired about our group walking.  It sucks too because it COULD be a good walking course with a few water fountains and benches, as you say.

That does NOT seem to be the case at Rustic... but perhaps Steve S. or someone who's been there since it opened last week can elaborate.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2002, 10:25:27 AM »
Tom,

By "Barona is cartball", I assume you mean they are geared to cartball, but walking is unrestricted otherwise, right?  There's not a lot of distance between holes, either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2002, 10:27:28 AM »
Now that the prutridity of Southern California public golf is no longer at such high levels I hope such insults will no longer recieve a free pass.  I would like to see an article in Superintendent News on how for very little cost a Super could make his course walker friendly when either the owner or architect have a proclivity for cartballing.   Flat rocks can be disguised as benches...maintenance paths as walkways.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2002, 10:35:44 AM »

Quote
Tom,

By "Barona is cartball", I assume you mean they are geared to cartball, but walking is unrestricted otherwise, right?  There's not a lot of distance between holes, either.

Geared toward cartball, yes.  They do ALLOW walking.  They're just shocked as shit when anyone tries.  And yes, the only long hike is 9 green to 10 tee.

You gotta remember the mentality of CCFAD golf, at least here in CA (walk?  why? where do I put my laptop and cell phone and three cocktails and box of cigars?) and the fact this course is tied to a casino and huge hotel being built.  They won't get many requests to walk, believe me.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2002, 10:42:26 AM »
How shocked were they when a majority (all?  Did anyone ride, besides maybe the recovering Pete G.?) of the 36 in the Barona outing walked, including the architect?  Did it give them new perspective, perhaps?  Nah....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2002, 10:43:22 AM »
It isn't an easy walk either.  They haven't fully developed walking paths between the holes or from the tees to the fairway yet.  Plus, the site has some elevation change to it and the pace of play is slow.  So - when you combine the long round (6+ hours on Saturday when I played it), no water, hot sun, and decent distances between tees and greens (9 to 10 is only long one, but the average is 80 yards I would imagine), it is a TOUGH walk.  Even for a 25 year old in pretty decent shape.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2002, 10:53:03 AM »

Quote
How shocked were they when a majority (all?  Did anyone ride, besides maybe the recovering Pete G.?) of the 36 in the Barona outing walked, including the architect?  Did it give them new perspective, perhaps?  Nah....

In retrospect, Dan G. is right - as far as walks go, this was a tough one.  And hmmmm... maybe they did get some perspective from us.  But I am not ashamed to say that we had several riding groups the first day, and nearly EVERYONE rode the second.  On Sunday, when I saw that the architect himself was riding, along with youngster Taylor, well that's all it took to get me in a cart.  I'm glad I did too!

I did walk the first day.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2002, 11:09:28 AM »
I can probably say that I was probably the highest ratio of overweight to age (I'm 10years older than the Emporer) and I had no real trouble walking on Saturday.   The worst of it was sore feet wearing new shoes.  But, I am not ashamed to say that after only 3 hours sleep upon opening quite a package of cheer the night before at Pete's, the cart was the only sane option for me on Sunday.  Gib, ever the intrepid trailblazer, somehow found his way walking through and over the rattlesnake den infested cliff off the 15th tee, while I walked an extra 200 yards around the mountain on the cart path winding down to fairway below.  No doubt that had Gib been bitten, with all the Armenian MoJo he prays over every ball, the snake would surely die while Gib played on. :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

SteveSailer

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2002, 12:08:40 PM »

Tom Huckaby wrote
RJD - Barona is cartball, make no mistake about it.  ...
That does NOT seem to be the case at Rustic... but perhaps Steve S. or someone who's been there since it opened last week can elaborate."

Steve here:

At Rustic, you don't have to climb up a lot of artificially elevated tees (although the naturally elevated tee at #17 might cause some heart palpitations), so that cuts down on the strain.

Still, there are some elements that aren't conducive to walking. There is a 234 foot climb from the 4th to the 13th. Some of the green to tee walks are long, such as 17 to 18, where you switch from the west side of the wide streambed to the right side. The worst is 12 to 13. Twelve is a short par 4 that plays in the reverse direction of the rest of the first half of the back nine. After you putt out, you turn around 180 degrees and walk all the way back the way you came along a fenced-in road.

So, until they get all the drinking fountains or water coolers in, make sure to bring lots of water. Because water is heavy too carry, bring a pull cart (I don't think they have any to rent as of yet.) Or, just rent a power cart. Maybe Rustic will turn out to be a riding course during the hot months and a walking course during the cool months.

Also, there are quite a few carries over native brush (but not much sage brush, thankfully - I could generally find my ball in it).  The longest carry is 220 yards from the back tee on #14 (and maybe 140 yards from the blue tee) across the wash to the magnificently ample fairway. From a walking standpoint, the problem with these carries is that after hitting your ball, you tend to get funnelled onto cart paths to get you through the brush (unless you want a whole mess of burrs in your socks). Walking on concrete is okay, but it's not as enjoyable as walking on turf.

Also, there is almost zero shade on the course. I don't think the climate is particularly hot - Moorpark is in Ventura County, which gets pleasant ocean breezes. But if the breeze isn't blowing, watch out.

The point is that Hanse's and Shackelford's strategy of finding the best holes implicit in the interesting land necessarily lowers walkability somewhat. If all I want is pure walkability, I can always play the Sepulveda Dam municipal courses, which are built on featureless ground, with trees planted between the closely aligned greens and tees to provide protection from mishit approaches.

By the way, I fear five+ hour rounds could be common - there are a lot of places to lose your ball at Rustic, yet you mostly have a chance to find it if you search long and hard for it. That's a formula for slow golf. Also, there are two or three theoretically drivable par 4s, which could lead to long waits on the tees as big bombers wait for the greens to clear out 330 yards away (the hard turf makes this distance tempting). These are not problems for a low usage private course, but because Rustic offers the best dollar value of just about any public course in SoCal, it could get very crowded, especially with lousy players like me who will hit a lot of shots into the brush.

Overall, though, it didn't seem hugely hard for weaker players. The ability to putt from well off the green will be appreciated  by high-handicappers, because with a chip you flubb it or send a cruise missile screaming across the green, it's hard to avoid getting a, say, 30 yard putt into two-putt range.

Anyway, that's enough quibbling. Rustic Canyon is a gem set amidst the mediocrity of LA public golf.

Steve Sailer
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2002, 12:31:57 PM »
Muchas gracias, Steve.  NOITHING beats fresh-from-the-site reporting like this.

BTW, I grew up playing Balboa and Encino... went to Crespi HS right near there.  Small world.   :)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2002, 04:29:24 PM »
I also played Rustic this weekend and, generally, agree with Steve's comments.  At the risk of being redundant, I add the following:

1.  Walkability.  I would guess 25-40% of those who played Rustic on Saturday morning walked (the starter was keeping track, so Geoff may have a more accurate number.)  By L.A. standards, this is an extraordinarily high figure, especially since almost all of the golfers had not yet played the course and did not know whether it was walkable.   Most of the green to tee walks are minimal -- It was usually as short to walk to the next tee, rather than over to a cart then from cart to next tee.  (Most of the time I beat the riders in my group to the next tee.)

However, as Steve notes, a few walks are quite long (9-10, 12-13, 13-14, 17- 18 ) and felt  incongruous.  In fairness, the treks may have seemed longer since I was paired with three riders.  If I had been paired with walkers, I might not have noticed the walks as much.  (Steve is definitely correct that on the long walks across the wash, the only option seems to be the cartpath -- I felt like I might be run over on a few occasions.)  

But generally, for a newer course with 'environmentally sensitive' areas (the wash which runs the length of the property is designated an unplayable red hazard), I found the course to be quite walkable.  Anyone who walked Barona could easily walk Rustic.  

2.  Pace of Play.  I got paired with the first group off on Saturday and played in exactly 4 hours (much too slow for a first group.)  The group behind us (all walkers) generally kept up, and had to wait a few minutes on 17 (a par 3), but not noticably on any other hole. I thought the three guys I was with were very deliberate, so I was surprised that we got around in 4 hours.  From the 16th tee (which felt like the highpoint on the course) it looked as though things were moving nicely for the first eight or so groups.  After that, there was a one hole gap.  I assume that most played in 4.5 hours or less.  

The course did not (yet) have sprinklers marked, which frustrated the three golfers I was with.  They spent alot of time trying to calculate distances (from 150 and 200 posts on one side of the fairway), only to grossly misclub.  They complained that this slowed down play (I think their cell phone had more to do with it.)  I thought the lack of markers added to the 'rustic experience' and was disappointed when told that the sprinkler heads would be marked.  Whether this should be so, a segment of the public definitely expects to be given the distance.  

3.  Playability.  The course should be playable for all levels, provided that people find the correct tees.   Generally, the landing areas off the tee are huge, with only a few forced carries.  This should help the pace of play. As Steve noted, 14 (an excellent long par 4 which demands a right to left ball flight to take advantage of a slope and shorten the hole) requires a long carry from the blue and black tees.  Likewise, 6 has a carry off the tee from the blue and black.  However, there is no forced carry on either hole from the red and white tees.  

3.  Bunkering.    The bunkers are absolutely beautiful.  A number look like natural extensions of the existing wash.  The bunkers in the fairway look like they have been there forever.  But, generally the bunkering is pretty sparse.  A number of landing areas and green areas have no bunkers whatsoever.  On many holes, the contours of the greens and pin placements will dictate the angle of attack, not the bunkering.  

4.  Conditions.  Conditions were great.  The course appears very mature for a brand new course.  My guess is that the areas around the greens and the greens themselves are playing a little bit softer and slower than they ultimately will be.  This allowed for relatively easy recovery from places where I am not sure that Gil anticipated easy recovery.  I hope that, over time, a little added speed and firmness will emphasize the strategic elements by putting a premium on positioning and angle of attack.  

Overall, I loved the course, but hesitate to comment too much on the strategic details before I play it multiple times. To me, my uncertainty about the details is itself is a huge positive.  The course is not obvious. It is subtle and visually deceptive by design.  The front nine especially is very low profile -- hard to know what the options are at first look.  Definitely not a course for the one-time thrill-seeker.   It may be the anti-'signature hole' course.  

I will say that, so far, I liked the back nine more than the front, perhaps because I had previously walked the back and therefore had some familiarity. But really, I loved almost everything.   And, most of all, I am looking forward to discovering the course over time.

My congratulations to all those involved.   And thank you for giving Southern California such a great public course!  

(modified to remove inadvertant smilies)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

DMoriarty

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2002, 04:41:48 PM »
The following was contained on a handout being passed out to all the golfers on Saturday, and appears on http://www.pk2.net/rusticcanyon/
along with some photos.

Rustic Canyon

By Gil Hanse and Geoff Shackelford  

On behalf of everyone involved in creating Rustic Canyon Golf Course, welcome.  Constructed during the summer of 2001 and opened on April 25, 2002, Rustic Canyon looks and plays differently than most California golf courses. Some might call it a “links” style course. That’s certainly an appropriate description for many of the design features, particularly the native shrubbery and sand soil found on the property. However, we hope Rustic Canyon is a distinct offshoot of the Scottish links: a ranch-style design more closely allied to the look, feel and playing character of certain courses found in Australia. Rustic golf.  

You will soon notice a few things about the design and maintenance of Rustic Canyon that may initially strike you as atypical. These same elements will hopefully make Rustic Canyon unique. The primary design goal was to “place” the golf holes onto this beautiful sandy landscape, as opposed to rearranging the land to fit our design ideas. Virtually all of the fairway undulations and even some of the green contours you will encounter were here long before we arrived. They were simply waiting to be uncovered. Thus, the sequencing or routing of Rustic Canyon was created to take advantage of these interesting natural elements. This “minimalist” approach to the land explains why the front nine has three par-3’s, three par-5’s and a shorter total yardage than the longer back nine. This imbalance might look odd on the scorecard, but we are confident that by the end of your round, you will have attempted a full variety of shots. Also, do not underestimate the tilt of Happy Camp Canyon in judging distances or reading your putts. From the thirteenth green at the top of the canyon down to the fourth green on the lower west end of the property, there is 243 feet of elevation change. Remember, putts tend to break toward the Reagan Library toward the southwest!  

You may also notice that the greens often have large, sometimes undulating openings featuring the same bent grass strains in the “approach” areas as you will find on the putting surfaces. These approaches were as carefully conceived as the greens themselves, with the idea of inspiring an element of golf found on Scottish and Irish links but rarely found in America: the bump-and-run shot. With the porous soil here, these approach areas will play firm and fast year-round. So don’t be afraid to try alternative shots into and around the greens. Though we welcome you to try the traditional high, floating shot, we think you might find just as much success and pleasure in using of variety of shots around the greens. There is nothing wrong with pitching a 6-iron that stays low to the ground, or even striking a putt from 30 yards off the putting surface. All we ask is that you care for these areas around the greens as you would the greens themselves, by repairing any ball marks you may find and replacing your bent grass divots in the approaches so that maintenance crew can later repair these areas with bent seed.  

As evidenced in the great works by architects such as George Thomas, Donald Ross, A.W. Tillinghast and Alister MacKenzie, the timeless designs provide players with wide fairways to choose a preferred avenue of attack at various hole locations. By modern standards, the fairways at Rustic Canyon are extremely wide. This was intentional because we strongly believe in making golf fun.  Besides giving you room to make mistakes, even more golfing interest comes from having the chance to place your shots on certain sides of the fairways for your preferred angle of attacking the green.  We have constructed what we hope are intriguing green complexes with a variety of pin placement possibilities that will allow you to maneuver your way around Rustic Canyon differently each time, all depending on the days hole locations. Hopefully you will take advantage of the room necessary to find the most comfortable way to the hole. You might also want to make a note of how certain seemingly “safe” places to play are not always the best areas to approach the day’s hole location from.    

Another element giving Rustic Canyon a distinct Southern California flavor is the native plant material. You will see patches of California Coastal Sage Scrub on the hills and numerous rare plants in the wash are running the length of the entire canyon. This wash is an environmentally sensitive patch vital to the thriving habitat that was here long before the golf course, so we ask that you not stray past the red stakes marked with green tops. This will allow the native wildlife and vegetation a chance to proper.  Staying out of these areas is also for your own safety: poison oak and rattlesnakes have been known to proper in these areas.  Also, a note regarding the occasional brown or sandy patches on the areas immediately outside of the fairways. This was intentional to prevent irrigation from reaching the native grass areas. We want to minimize lost balls while also helping to make a subtle transition from the lush fairway turf into the rugged earth tones surrounding the golf course.  

One final tip to help you get around Rustic Canyon: scout out the hole locations on forthcoming greens as you play. The sequencing of the holes and even the drive into the course provide an opportunity to scout the days pin placements. The tilt of the canyon makes judging distances even more difficult. So any advantage you can give yourself, particularly with hole locations, should help you score better. We’ve found that simply seeing a pin placement in advance will allow you to take make a more confident stroke. Local knowledge is important to making any course enjoyable to play on a repeat basis. We hope that the design of Rustic Canyon not only excites your senses the first time around, but that there are enough design subtleties to create interesting golf for years to come.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou Duran

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2002, 05:25:15 PM »
Dave:

Which course do you like better and why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Todd_Eckenrode

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2002, 05:35:16 PM »
I'm really looking forward to seeing Rustic now that it's open.  

RE. the walkability of Barona, I've passed on the comments re. benches and more paths through the natives.  Also talked to Sandy (Superintendent), and he's in concurrence.  Just a matter of time now.    Jeez, that was a sore spot!  Calling it cartball is pretty misleading, though.  It was certainly designed and intended to be walked, and will soon have the finishing touches to match that.  I'd thought a lot of the walking paths would form themselves by simply being worn out, but this just hasn't happened, probably due to a lack of enough traffic and too many optional directions to choose from oftentimes.
  
Geoff...was the bent in the surrounds "pure", with a hard line somewhere that goes then to your fairway grass (was it rye?), or did you mix in bent with your fairway grass in the surrounds and decrease the %mix as you went out?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2002, 06:38:36 PM »
Todd,

I apologize for beating the dead horse of walking at Barona...the design is there as proven by my fat ass walking both days...thanks for taking my opinion seriously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2002, 08:00:50 PM »
Lou

That is a great question, but I am not going to answer, at least not yet.  

First, I have played Barona 5 times under a variety of conditions, but have only played Rustic once. Any comparison would be premature.  This is especially true because my one round at Rustic left many more questions than answers.  

Second, I don't find ranking courses as productive as some on this site.  Don't get me wrong, I love to read the comparisons, but I just don't get much out of the "which is better" question.  I like both of these courses quite a lot. I would rather play either one rather than any other public-access course south of Ventura.  If they were both close to my house I would play one or the other every weekend.  

I will say this, they are very different.  A few of the differences:

The Sites.  Rustic is unlike many of the canyon courses in California in that it plays mostly on the canyon floor (like Riviera.)  The movement in the land is definitely there, but it is very subtle.  Barona, in comparison, has lots of ups and downs.  The movement is more obvious.

Tee shots.  With the exception of a few holes at Barona, you really see what you get.  And, as the photos demonstrate, Barona a beautiful course to look at from the tees.  At Rustic, it is not so simple.  Most of the tees are low profile and the absence of the usual bunkering makes perception off the tee difficult. The shots aren't blind, just not obvious. There aren't any targets.  And the greens are, for the most part, extremely low profile.  No green complex, just an interesting area that it mowed slightly shorter than the surrounds.  For example the green on the three shot 10th is a long and narrow rectangular green that runs along the side of the wash. No bunkers, no built up base, plenty of room to miss to the right, no way to distinguish the green area except for the slight difference in the grass.  I thought I hit a very good pitching wedge from about 125 -- thought I had 10 feet -- but was left with what seemed like a 90 foot putt.  Very deceptive.

Bunkering.  Both course have beautiful bunkering, but very different.  Barona's bunkers are big, flashy, bright, white, and jagged, and contrast against  both the green fairways and the stark surrounds.  Many of the holes are defined by the big beautiful Barona bunkers.  Rustic's are much more subtle (again).  Slightly darker, earthy sand, in places where one could imagine a bunker or waste area forming naturally.  Blended. And some are tiny, concave, ominous.   Barona has many bunkers, but a few at Rustic are really scary.

Strategy.  The fairways at Rustic are extremely wide and thus offer an multitude of angles from which to approach the green.  The greens offer interesting contours which help dictate the desired attack.  It will take me many rounds before I feel like I will be able to figure out the best angles, if I ever do.  Barona certainly offers choices, and even I can usually figure out what they are.

Conditions.  At this point, Barona plays harder and faster, especially around the greens (even with the overseeded Rye).  I have a feeling that over time Rustic will catch up.  At both courses, hard and fast will be a necessity if they want to keep the interesting options alive.  This may even be more true at Rustic, which is really relying in the countours around the green to define the strategy of the holes.  

Scoring.  I am not a very good golfer, and certainly felt challenged by Barona.  When I got a rare good score I felt like I really earned it.  The course seems difficult.  At Rustic, it is the opposite.  The course seems like it should be easy --  wide open fairways, short par threes, greens not guarded by bunkers. A number of short, wide par 4s.  I hit the ball well Saturday (after a miserable start), yet, it was difficult for me to score. The challenges were apparently there, just less obvious.  I am curious to hear from some of the more accomplished golfers whether you have a similar experience at Rustic.  

Playability.  As I said above, Rustic will be playable for all levels of golfer.  I am of the Mackenzie school on this one, and believe that this is should be a goal of most (if not all) designs.  Barona may be less playable to the hack, like me, but is still very playable and enjoyable.

Appeal to the Public.  Barona has already shown that it can be successful. This is potentially good for S.C. public golf, in that it may help convince more developers to step outside the box and build better, more interesting courses.  At Rustic, winning over the public might be more of a challenge.  The course is SO DIFFERENT than anything most in Ventura and LA counties have seen.  If you thought Barona was different, just wait until you see Rustic.  I hope the public loves it (but not so much that I can't get out.)  I have a feeling that, at $40 dollars on the weekend, Rustic will get all the play it can handle.  

In sum:  Barona is more of a "you get what you see" experience, and a thrilling one at that.  Rustic is much less defined, more esoteric.  The thrill will be in trying to figure it out.   I would play either any day.

How is that for a long-winded non-answer?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2002, 08:06:19 PM »
DMoriarty;

Thanks for the excellent analysis.  I haven't played either yet, but I could virtually picture them in my mind based on your fine, detailed descriptions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Lou Duran

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2002, 09:19:44 PM »
Dave,

Mike is right- a very good analysis/description of the courses.  BTW, I saw you hit a few shots at Barona a couple of Saturdays ago which certainly didn't support your characterization of your game.  Your reluctance to choose a favorite is understandable, and I take it that RC must be a great course in light of the overwhelming support that BC received from the group.  I don't know when I'll get to L.A. again, but RC is on my must play list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2002, 07:16:49 AM »
Wow - thank you very much, David.  Excellent analysis indeed.  The salivating continues re Rustic.

And Todd, re Barona being "cartball", again, let me just say it is geared toward such the way MANAGEMENT is handling it.  They put your clubs on a cart right in the parking lot, just assume you're gonna ride, etc.  It surely can be walked, as many of us proved Saturday.  It's just CA culture and the same can be said re your Shadow Lakes course up here - riders will always outnumber walkers 10-1.  Us walkers do appreciate the effort in any case.

Cheers!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rustic Canyon vs. Barona Creek
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2002, 10:47:59 AM »
Dave
Excellent comparison.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back