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Tom MacWood

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Identify the architects (British version)
« on: September 23, 2009, 09:35:31 PM »
Actually British and Irish version...and Scottish version too if you don't consider the Scots British. All these architects are either English, Scottish or Irish.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 09:38:15 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 09:36:15 PM »
Four more...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 09:39:51 PM by Tom MacWood »

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 09:58:17 PM »
Wow, first off, thanks for the great old pics!

My only quick guess is the last picture.  It is that crazy Mackenzie green...I can't think of the name of it...two words...first word start with "s"

David Stamm

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 10:00:05 PM »
Wow, first off, thanks for the great old pics!

My only quick guess is the last picture.  It is that crazy Mackenzie green...I can't think of the name of it...two words...first word start with "s"


You're thinking of Sitwell Park. I'm not sure that that pic is of that course though. Great pics, Tom.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 10:35:09 PM »
Are these courses in America or where?

#11 has some really cool dunes!

Tom MacWood

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 10:53:07 PM »
These course are all in Europe, except one. The great majority are in England.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 10:54:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

JNC Lyon

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 11:22:39 PM »
Photo 3 appears to the 10th at the Old Course at Sunningdale, which is a Willie Park, Jr. design.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

James Boon

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 03:29:57 AM »
Great old photos Tom, thanks. I would agree with JNC that 3 looks like Park's 10th at Sunningdale Old. And my first thought on seeing 13 was the same as Chip, that it looks like a MacKenzie?

8 looks like it could be the 5th at Sunningdale New, so if it is thats Harry Colt.

Will have to mull over some of the others. Maybe I need to get out more and see even more of these old guys work to help me recognise some of their work  ::)

Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2009, 04:04:33 AM »
Brilliant Tom... Thanks... Can't wait to be given the answers because there's not too many easy guesses...

Picture 7 is clearly very old (1800's) from the dress and the bunker style.... Obviously the bunker styles (and lack of same in the UK today) are the most noticeable things about almost all of the pictures...

I'm not so sure that picture 8 is the 5th at Sunningdale New... There is too much vegetation around and the bunkers look neater than they should for a picture of that age... It looks more like 7 at Hankley Common to me... But I don't think that's right either

Determined to get a few of these - will study in detail later...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 07:27:18 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 07:47:42 AM »
No. 10 is the old 18th hole at Stockholms Golf Klubb.

As for the architect, there's no evidence of Colt having designed it.

Here's a summary written by the Swedish architect Peter Fjällman:

The first layout for an eighteen hole course at Kevinge was made by Jochum Beck –Friis but was soon rejected and J Nicholson from Hawtree and Taylor was called upon. But the board was not satisfied with the suggestions so more experts came to the site. A German architect , Emil Schultz , who at the time worked with B von Limburger made a plan and also J.S.F Morrison, an associate of H. Colt visited the site and presented a plan. But the committee were not satisfied so they started to make their own plans and Sundblom had a big influence. Finally  “suggestion “ nr 12 was approved by the board and work stated on the new course.

We may assume that the final routing was a compromise of all the different suggestions and Sundblom probably was the man behind the mix. Sundblom went over to England to negotiate with contactors and seed merchants. During these business related negotiations, Sundblom had the opportunity to visit and study the classical courses of the United Kingdom. Finally the contract to build the course went to Carter & Co and Fred Smith and George Maywood came over to Stockholm. ( G Maywood stayed as the greenkeeper up to 1938 ).

In the autumn of 1932 the course was open for the members and the initial game was played between Edward, the Prince of Wales and the Swedish Crown Prince, Gustav VI Adolf.
(Stockholms Golfklubb 1904-1954)


Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 08:38:16 AM »
Donal,

That's fascinating because I've been searching for references to Fred Smith from Carters (without much luck) as there is a belief that he is largely responsible for the Old Course at Ballybunion... Maybe Tom can shed some light, being the man with breadth of knowledge?

Christoph Meister

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 10:14:00 AM »
No. 10 is the old 18th hole at Stockholms Golf Klubb.

As for the architect, there's no evidence of Colt having designed it.

Here's a summary written by the Swedish architect Peter Fjällman:

The first layout for an eighteen hole course at Kevinge was made by Jochum Beck –Friis but was soon rejected and J Nicholson from Hawtree and Taylor was called upon. But the board was not satisfied with the suggestions so more experts came to the site. A German architect , Emil Schultz , who at the time worked with B von Limburger made a plan and also J.S.F Morrison, an associate of H. Colt visited the site and presented a plan. But the committee were not satisfied so they started to make their own plans and Sundblom had a big influence. Finally  “suggestion “ nr 12 was approved by the board and work stated on the new course.

We may assume that the final routing was a compromise of all the different suggestions and Sundblom probably was the man behind the mix. Sundblom went over to England to negotiate with contactors and seed merchants. During these business related negotiations, Sundblom had the opportunity to visit and study the classical courses of the United Kingdom. Finally the contract to build the course went to Carter & Co and Fred Smith and George Maywood came over to Stockholm. ( G Maywood stayed as the greenkeeper up to 1938 ).

In the autumn of 1932 the course was open for the members and the initial game was played between Edward, the Prince of Wales and the Swedish Crown Prince, Gustav VI Adolf.
(Stockholms Golfklubb 1904-1954)



Emil Schultz was a golf course constructor from Reinbek just east of Hamburg working mainly for von Limburger, Colt&Co and others in Germany. Even though he draw a plan for Stockholm GC (see below) it is highly unlikely that he designed the proposed layout as he was not a golf player at all. As far as I know the proposed layout for Stockholm GC was done by Bernhard von Limburger - would be interesting to know if any of his ideas where used for the final design. Below you can see a photo of Emil Schultzes plan which I had the opportunity to hold in my hand some years ago.....



Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Kalen Braley

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 10:31:51 AM »
Tom,

Outstanding pics, nice work.

The hole named Architect 11 looks outstanding.  I'm going to guess MacK did a couple of those holes, but would probably just make a fool of myself trying to guess which ones.  And now i'm really showing my ignorance, was Colt British or American because I would guess a few of those are his as well.

P.S. I would also guess Alison had a hand in a couple of these as well.

Kalen
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 10:35:28 AM by Kalen Braley »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 10:51:21 AM »

Emil Schultz was a golf course constructor from Reinbek just east of Hamburg working mainly for von Limburger, Colt&Co and others in Germany. Even though he draw a plan for Stockholm GC (see below) it is highly unlikely that he designed the proposed layout as he was not a golf player at all. As far as I know the proposed layout for Stockholm GC was done by Bernhard von Limburger - would be interesting to know if any of his ideas where used for the final design. Below you can see a photo of Emil Schultzes plan which I had the opportunity to hold in my hand some years ago.....





Christoph,

As amazing as it may sound, there are a couple of highly successful architects working today who do not play golf... So anything's possible...

Christoph Meister

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 11:41:55 AM »

Emil Schultz was a golf course constructor from Reinbek just east of Hamburg working mainly for von Limburger, Colt&Co and others in Germany. Even though he draw a plan for Stockholm GC (see below) it is highly unlikely that he designed the proposed layout as he was not a golf player at all. As far as I know the proposed layout for Stockholm GC was done by Bernhard von Limburger - would be interesting to know if any of his ideas where used for the final design. Below you can see a photo of Emil Schultzes plan which I had the opportunity to hold in my hand some years ago.....





Christoph,

As amazing as it may sound, there are a couple of highly successful architects working today who do not play golf... So anything's possible...

Ally

You are definetely right, I know that f.e. today in Germany there are a couple of landscape architects who have designed golf courses, some of these courses are not even bad - it is just that Emil Schultz was a local garden constructor from Reinbek who had his first involvement with golf when he built the 9 new holes at my homeclub Reinbek-Wohltorfer GC (now Wentorf-Reinbeker GC) in 1925 according to plans drawn by Wm Rusack from St. Andrews (Rusack's Marine Hotel) and I am pretty sure the proposed design of the holes at Stockholm was made by von Limburger and not Schultz....


Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Niall C

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 02:40:10 PM »
Excellent stuff Tom. I would guess quite a few of them are the courses round London such as Huntercombe, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest, Walton Heath etc. Therefore Willie Park and Harry Colt have got to be in the suspect line-up but can't say which holes I would say are theres.

I would have a guess that no. 11 is Westward Ho which would make it Fowler.

Is one of them Gleneagles, can't see the pics while posting this ,but that would make it Braid or Hutchison depending on who you believed deserves credit.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 02:44:54 PM »
No. 2 Braid ?

No 5 - I'll go for MacKenzie just by the look of the back line of the green, and the last one obviously looks like a MacKenzie as well

Niall

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 03:24:14 PM »
No 8 must be the 5th at West Sussex.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tom MacWood

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 07:08:16 PM »
We've got three correct so far.

3 is Willie Park-Jr. and Sunningdale; 8 is Guy Campbell, CK Hutchison & SV Hotchkin at West Sussex; and 10, I have Fred Smith as the designer of Stockholm, which I thought would be impossible to figure out.

I don't know much about Fred Smith. I do know he was the golf architect for Carters in the 1930s. I'm not sure when exactly he began working for that firm. Here is photo of the man and one of his drawings, which has a Simpson look to it, and perhaps some Mackenzie influence too. I've also attached a Caters advertisement of Stockholm.


Let me know if you would like an alphabetical listing of the remaining architects, several have been mentioned, but not with the correct picture.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 10:56:46 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2009, 05:38:50 AM »
Tom:

Excellent Fred Smith information.

I don't know much about him either. He designed the Caesarea golf course in Israel in 1958 and also a course in Stavanger, Norway. Perhaps Brian Phillips has more info on Fred Smith, as he did the restoration of Stavanger GC with Graeme Webster. According to their website, "Brian and Graeme had begun studying Fred Smith's work" prior to the restoration. I recall someone previously mentioned that he worked with Colt and that he "built" the Columbus GC (Is this the same Fred Smith?).

Ally:

According the the Ballybunion GC history, the course was restored to 18 holes in 1927. Work undertaken by Messrs. Carter & Sons, Raynes Park, London. Course altered by Simpson in 1936.

Christoph:

The plan by Emil Schultz doesn't look much like the 1932 plan at Kevinge. Maybe when I have a bit more time, I'll go through the club's history which has the original map.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2009, 06:00:01 AM »
Donal, Tom,

Fred Smith was directly responsible for extending Ballybunion from 9 holes to 18 holes in 1926... In fact, more than that, the club had originally bought flat inland ground for this purpose and he persuaded them to sell it again and buy the duneland to the south.

In addition to that, the original 9 holes were completely different after his redesign than they were in 1909... But I have not yet discovered if all of these changes (including the famous 11th) happened between 1909 and 1926 or if they too were changed by Smith in 1926, thus making him far and away the most influential architect on the course...

Any help would be most welcome... Great to get a picture of him Tom...

Ally

Tom MacWood

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2009, 11:06:52 AM »
The remaining architects in alphabetical order: Abercromby, Alison, Braid, Colt, Croome, Fowler, Gannon, Hawtree & Taylor, Mackenzie and Simpson.

henrye

Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2009, 12:21:55 PM »
Fowler #2?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2009, 12:33:11 PM »
Thansk Tom it's been a while since we've had this kind of quiz.

I am generally useless at these, so guessing.

5 Swinley Colt 10th?
6 Troon, Portland. MacKenzie
7  Walton Heath Fowler - picture taken before they'd dug them deep ;)
11 Burnham .  Fowler/Colt whoever.

Given that they are probably wrong a couple of other observations.

7 looks like it has race track posts which may not rule out WH but brings in Hoylake or Gt Yarmouth or...
8 Can I see a big house through the trees?  Moor Park or Stoke Park
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

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Re: Identify the architects (British version)
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2009, 03:50:24 PM »
I've been completely wrong with my other guesses but I'll try a real shot in the dark and suggest Duff House Royal for no. 12 which would make it a MacKenzie.

Don't tell me, wrong again.

Niall

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