RYE GC: Bigness & Grandeur (Redux)

[Sean_A]

Thanks for those pictures, Sean.  What a not pity that some of us were lucky enough to play in the afternoon when the clouds and rain had disappeared.  It was difficult for us to see the merits of Rye when playing in warmth and sunshine.

As for the commentary, I agree on the complete incongruity of the 11th, but will defend the 10th as a reasonably good hole.  I do not at all remember the pond on the 11th from my previous visit in 1981, and sources have told me that it was not there in 1977, so my memories may be right.  Whoever and however that got put on such a fine course defines GCA criminality.  Overall I was relatively underwhelmed.  Rye is a unqiue club and a fine golf course, but it paled in relationship to it neighbours that we played over the next 4 days for numerous and vaired reasons.  I have taken a * off the course/club on the Rihcelin Scale (@2009, all rights reserved).

I'll also disagree with your comparison of the 14th and the 6th at Dornoch.  IMHO, the only similarity is that they are both par-3s.  Is it possible to get a 17 at Rye's 14th (as I have seen a reasonably good golfer do at the 6th at Dornoch)?  Does one's arse pucker when standing on Rye's 14th tee?  Is there a magnificent seaside view?

Regardless of what I think, I will defend to my death your right to hold such a loopy opinion....

PS--I can't exactly figure out which part of Tom MacW's Darwin post are his and which are Bernie's, but to call Douglas Rolland "a local professional" is needlessly dismissive.  Darwin would have known that he was one of the great players of his day and highly respected in the world of late-19th century golf.  I always thought that Rolland was in charge of the initial design of Rye and Colt assisted him.  It seems most logical given the relative expereince and reputation at that time of the two men.

Rihc

First, I think you owe me some royalties for the Rihcelin Scale.

Second, don't get yer knickers in a twist - they are likely your only clean pair after this week. 

Third, yes, #13 is pales in comparison to Dornoch's 3rd, but it does remind me of it.

Fourth, I can understand why folks would be underwhelmed by Rye, but why were you underwhelmed?

Fifth, is taking 17 a good thing?

Sixth, yes, #10 is ok for the land it sits on, but it could be improved.

Seventh, please don't die for my rights.

Eighth, why does Rye pale in comparison to the other courses you played this week?

Ninth, so Rye has been stripped of a star - how many are left?

Tenth, you are right, I think the idea of Rolland getting chucked aside in this assigning of credit is shameful, but understandable coming from Coltheads.

Eleventh, wash yer scivvies.

Ciao

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I disagree with your SF / Rye weighting. Rye is, by some order of magnitude, a better course.

Other than the 9th at SF, the front nine's par 4's are shortish and of similar distances, saved from the oubliette by interesting internal green contours. The par 4's on the back are a stronger group.

Rye has a wonderful set of varied 4's from beginning to end. If the 11th at Rye is weak, it is the exception that proves the rule.

The par 3's are comparable. They are very good on both courses.

On the return play-o-meter, I would return to play Rye as many times as I was able. SF, not so much.

Bob    

[Sean_A]

Rich -

I disagree with your SF / Rye weighting. Rye is, by some order of magnitude, a better course.

Other than the 9th at SF, the front nine's par 4's are shortish and of similar distances, saved from the oubliette by interesting internal green contours. The par 4's on the back are a stronger group.

Rye has a wonderful set of varied 4's from beginning to end. If the 11th at Rye is weak, it is the exception that proves the rule.

The par 3's are comparable. They are very good on both courses.

On the return play-o-meter, I would return to play Rye as many times as I was able. SF, not so much.

Bob   

Bob

Don't get carried away.  I think Swinley is generally comparable to Rye in terms of quality only, but for me the quality of the course is not whats its ALL ABOUT.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

I didn't say that Swinley was better than Rye.  All I said was that I would probably play Swinley again before I played Rye again.  I now have a good feel for what Rye is like today (vs. my last visit 28 years ago) and Swinley deserves a return visit so I can get a good feel for it (since my last visit was 5+ years ago).  If and when that happens, I'll be glad to report back with a comparison.

Sean

1.  You owe me royalties on the Richelin Scale, but I owe Sam MacInlay and he owes Bibendum, so you can send the check directly to Paris.

2.  My knickers are in the wash right now.

3.  I didn't talk about Rye #13 and Dornoch #3.  Have you been sniffing the Castrol again?

4.  I was underwhelmed by Rye because I am a folk too, and it failed to live up to expectations, just like many old flames do when you see them 20+ years and a few nips and tucks later.

5.  Taking a 17 is a bad thing.  A golf hole which puts the fear of taking a 17 (without ever losing your ball) in the golfer's subconscious is a good thing.

6.  All golf holes could be improved

7.  I won't

8.  There are few courses in the world which do not pale in comparison to Sandwich.  Littlestone is more friendly and better conditioned.  Deal has greater scale, more interesting golf holes and members who are licensed to shoot to kill.

9.  1*

10. Thanks for throwing me a bone

11. See 2. above.

Rich

[Sean_A]

Bob

I didn't say that Swinley was better than Rye.  All I said was that I would probably play Swinley again before I played Rye again.  I now have a good feel for what Rye is like today (vs. my last visit 28 years ago) and Swinley deserves a return visit so I can get a good feel for it (since my last visit was 5+ years ago).  If and when that happens, I'll be glad to report back with a comparison.

Sean

1.  You owe me royalties on the Richelin Scale, but I owe Sam MacInlay and he owes Bibendum, so you can send the check directly to Paris.

2.  My knickers are in the wash right now.

3.  I didn't talk about Rye #13 and Dornoch #3.  Have you been sniffing the Castrol again?

4.  I was underwhelmed by Rye because I am a folk too, and it failed to live up to expectations, just like many old flames do when you see them 20+ years and a few nips and tucks later.

5.  Taking a 17 is a bad thing.  A golf hole which puts the fear of taking a 17 (without ever losing your ball) in the golfer's subconscious is a good thing.

6.  All golf holes could be improved

7.  I won't

8.  There are few courses in the world which do not pale in comparison to Sandwich.  Littlestone is more friendly and better conditioned.  Deal has greater scale, more interesting golf holes and members who are licensed to shoot to kill.

9.  1*

10. Thanks for throwing me a bone

11. See 2. above.

Rich

Rihc

I owe you royalties?  Perhaps you are a Scot afterall.

Yes, I will go with Sandwich being the clear king of southeast England, but there is no way I would place Deal above Rye.  The out and back routing is a real menace and a shortcoming which I can't overlook.  All that said, it must be very good golf indeed where a course like Deal can finish 3rd out of 5 and Littlestone fifth out of 5. 

Go and load the wash machine.


Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Seanie

Everybody on this site knows that it was I who first stole the Michelin concept from Macinlay and Bibendum.  You are just a later and less skilled thief!

As to where I now place the 4 courses I played this week (where did you get "5" ), only The Shadow knows how I rank them, and he knows that I can change as quickly as he can arise and then disappear.

Now go wash your mouth out with soap.....

[Sean_A]

Seanie

Everybody on this site knows that it was I who first stole the Michelin concept from Macinlay and Bibendum.  You are just a later and less skilled thief!

As to where I now place the 4 courses I played this week (where did you get "5" ), only The Shadow knows how I rank them, and he knows that I can change as quickly as he can arise and then disappear.

Now go wash your mouth out with soap.....

Rihc

No, you dope, I don't want royalties for the concept, I want royalties for the title; Rihcelin Scale.  I will have my lawyer call your lawyer then we can do munch.

Yes, I do like changing my mind as well.

Enjoy your evening.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Yes, I will go with Sandwich being the clear king of southeast England, but there is no way I would place Deal above Rye.  The out and back routing is a real menace and a shortcoming which I can't overlook.  All that said, it must be very good golf indeed where a course like Deal can finish 3rd out of 5 and Littlestone fifth out of 5.

To be fair, Sean, 16 of the 18 holes at Rye play alone the one general axis (11 and 17 don't). At Deal it's 14 (8-11 don't). Rye changes direction eight times and Deal changes direction six times.

So Deal has less holes on the same axis, but Rye changes direction more.

Having played St George's now, I fully believe that a twisting, turning routing is preferable to out and back, but I can't see that Rye's setup is that much more of a positive feature than Deal's.

What am I missing in your eyes?

I'll admit to being a bit of a Deal homer, but not such a big one that I can't admit it is inferior to many courses I have played in the UK.

[Mark Bourgeois]

And all agreed the toughest shots in golf are the second shots to the par 3s at Rye as well as the 15th to the 6th at RDGC.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott - "many courses" better than Deal.....NB, TOC and RStG where else??

Sean - saying Deal's out and back routing is a real menace suggests there was another option. Looking at the narrow strip of links land I'd say they made a pretty good job of using the land available. In most parts the strip is only 200 or so yards wide so the routing had to go out and back. RStG, Princes, Littlestone and Rye could have been routed in any way the architects chose.

[Rich Goodale]

Seanie

Everybody on this site knows that it was I who first stole the Michelin concept from Macinlay and Bibendum.  You are just a later and less skilled thief!

As to where I now place the 4 courses I played this week (where did you get "5" ), only The Shadow knows how I rank them, and he knows that I can change as quickly as he can arise and then disappear.

Now go wash your mouth out with soap.....

Rihc

No, you dope, I don't want royalties for the concept, I want royalties for the title; Rihcelin Scale.  I will have my lawyer call your lawyer then we can do munch.

Yes, I do like changing my mind as well.

Enjoy your evening.

Ciao

Sean

Do you remember Bampot Wigglesthorpe?  Probably not...

He was the guy from Chipping Norton who coined the term "Darwinism" after reading "On the Origin of Species" and sued for copyright after others picked up on the word.  He didn't get any royalties either.

[Sean_A]

Scott - "many courses" better than Deal.....NB, TOC and RStG where else??

Sean - saying Deal's out and back routing is a real menace suggests there was another option. Looking at the narrow strip of links land I'd say they made a pretty good job of using the land available. In most parts the strip is only 200 or so yards wide so the routing had to go out and back. RStG, Princes, Littlestone and Rye could have been routed in any way the architects chose.

Mark

I am not suggesting there was any other option at Deal - which of course begs the question of how good can the routing really be with such a limiting choice.  Because the available land was used well doesn't make the layout a good one.  It means they did the best with what they had.  Unfortunately, what Deal has severely limiting.  What helps Deal immensely is having many holes with crumpled land and some with flatter land on the far side - it helps create a diversity which the routing can't provide.  

Scott

What makes the layout better at Rye than Deal is how the dune ridge is attacked from different angles using doglegs and par 3s.  This makes many more holes on the turn of the wind no matter which direction it comes from than Deal can have.  I count at least eight in this manner.  So, the combo of changing a few more times on itself than Deal and how it uses wind from either left or right a few more times than Deal adds up to a significant difference imo.  It is one of the benefits of having more of a square or even triangle shaped property as opposed to long and narrow. Plus, the par 3s at Rye are well beyond Deal's 3s - especially on the front 9.  We could argue all day, but there isn't much point because neither side is going to convince the other.  Of course, none of this means that Deal is a poor or average course, only that Rye is exceptional.  

Finally, I have a real admiration for courses that are short, but play much longer than the card suggests.  Rye is a template for this sort of design.  I am not saying its better, just that I prefer this sort of setup.


I can understand if one prefers Deal over Rye because preference is about more then just the course.  It could even be one particular hole which makes the difference - who knows, but I can't understand how one can think Deal is better than Rye.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Fair enough Sean. You make many good points there, especially on the par threes.

Having played Deal 15 or so times and Rye just once can't be helping my neutrality. I'd like to play Rye again in late winter, because the conditioning early September was taking the piss a bit, IMO.

[Sean_A]

Fair enough Sean. You make many good points there, especially on the par threes.

Having played Deal 15 or so times and Rye just once can't be helping my neutrality. I'd like to play Rye again in late winter, because the conditioning early September was taking the piss a bit, IMO.

Scott

Yes, the fairway conditions of Rye are spotty to say the least.  While I would prefer better conditions, however I accept that if you don't water fairways (which I don't think Rye does or if they do it would be very sparingly) then conditions will suffer in dry conditions.  I am used to this sort of thing playing quite a bit at Pennard and in fact, I applaud it.

I would like to play Deal when the wind isn't such a factor on the back 9.  It may alter my views a bit.

Ciao

[John Mayhugh]

I really enjoyed Rye even though (or perhaps because) we got the worst of the weather.  It's a really natural feeling course that takes full advantage of the sand ridges to provide much variety between the holes.  It could easily be the highlight of a golf trip to England.

No telling how long it will take me to organize and post my photos from there.  I thought I would go ahead and share a few photos of photos.  These are classic images of Rye that have been enlarged and hang in the main entrance to the clubhouse.  Sorry the quality isn't better, but these are too beautiful not to post. 

[Mark Chaplin]

John - fancy posting Bill McBride's originals!!

[Scott Warren]

Scott - "many courses" better than Deal.....NB, TOC and RStG where else??

Walton Heath (Old) and arguably West Sussex.

[John Mayhugh]

John - fancy posting Bill McBride's originals!!

I knew he had been to a lot of Budas, but wow.  That's certainly impressive.

[Sean_A]

Theres been enough goofing off on this site.  Time to get down to business and what better business can there be than Rye?  Enjoy the updated pix.

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Sean:

I truly loved Rye.  Great set of 3s and 4s.  Best use of crosswinds of any course I have played.  Obviously, the one weakness is the lack of (quality) par 5s.  Were I to have a vote, I would vote Rye into the World Top 100.

Many speak of the great day at Muirfield with fourballs in the morning and foursomes in the afternoon.  Rye offers an equal, if not better, experience.  In after the morning round, the members greeted our group warmly.  When asked which way to lunch in my coat and tie, I was properly told "that way, but you can't go to lunch before you have some drinks!" 

Rye is the sort of course that anyone and everyone can love.  It embodies most things GCA supports.  Very walkable.  A interesting variety of holes.  Fabulous routing that takes full use of the elements (namely the crosswinds). 

Bart

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I too love Rye! It is in the club with the best of the best. May the day come I can play these glorious holes again.

[Mark Chaplin]

Rye and Swinley are actually very similar clubs pulling their members from a similar gene pool. Sean very early on you said you were surprised Rye didn't get more plaudits, well it's only in the last five years - like SF - that unaccompanied visitors have been permitted. Rye has tended to keep under the radar and even now isn't widely known.

[Giles Payne]

I have mixed feelings about Rye and I can't quite get to why this is. Looking at the great photo tour brings back good memories. I particularly agree about the 17th which I think is underrated and gets far too much bad press. 10 isn't bad, just a bit bland and 11th seems out of place but again just isn't quite as good as the others.

I love the club and the atmosphere and I really like the course, but for some reason I don't feel that the course, as a whole, is quite as good as some others.  It may just be that there are a few holes that I have never played well (6 and 13). It may be that I subconsiously bracket wiht RStG as it is in the same area.

One thing is for sure, I would never turn down a chance to play there, and I really must get down again. I think that it is probably one of those special courses where your enjoyment increases with every play.

[Mark Chaplin]

I also highly recommend playing the Jubilee course. It's a cracker with several very good holes.

[Bill_McBride]

I also highly recommend playing the Jubilee course. It's a cracker with several very good holes.

Agreed.  I particularly liked the par 4 with the green benched up into the dune.  I was trying to figure out which hole on the main course was on the other side, maybe 14.  The Donald Steel bunkers on the Jubilee are way too perfectly circular for that course.