[David Stamm]

For those that have played Maples courses, how would you characterize their work? Was Ellis the best of the family? Dan? How closely does Ellis' work resemble those of his mentor, Ross? What are Ellis and Dan's best courses?

[Chris Buie]

Ellis was easily the best architect in the family.  His masterpiece is Grandfather G&CC.  He was kind of a surrogate son to Ross who only had a daughter.  His father Frank was Ross' right hand man - almost certainly more than a superintendent.  Frank is the unsung hero of the development of Pinehurst.  Frank designed only one course to my knowledge - called I think, Montevideo.  It was to be a huge real estate complex near Southern Pines CC.  Economic troubles halted production.  The only thing that survived that project was the ornate entrance - which is still there.  Son/Grandson Dan has designed a lot of courses.  His work at Keith Hills was pretty good - I thought.  
Ellis work was similar but not identical to Ross.  His courses are quite natural looking and he uses the high point-to-high point style that Ross used a lot.  I would say that they are not as severe as Ross.  Not so many difficult roll off areas around the greens. 

[Bart Bradley]

David:

Here is a thread I started awhile back:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31377.0.html

I think you can see a lot of Ross in Ellis' work...check out Ran's profile of Grandfather.  The green on 15 is very reminiscent of the Ross sterotype turtleback green.

Ellis was known to have been a very good player and his courses tend to be somewhat difficult.

Bart

[A.G._Crockett]

Dan Maples has three courses in the Calabash area that I like a lot; Oyster Bay, the Pearl West, and Marsh Harbour (NLE, unfortunately).  He also did The Witch at Myrtle Beach, which is one of the more underrated courses among the mid-range courses there.  The Pit is probably his best known course because it is controversial; I've never played it, but I understand that it currently suffers from poor playing conditions.

I've enjoyed all of the Ellis Maples courses I've played as well, but have never played Grandfather.  I think he actually did more courses than Dan has, BTW.

[Chris Flamion]

I only have 1 course of theirs under my belt.  The Witch in Myrtle Beach is and has been as long as I have been there a flat out steal for a great course.  While I haven't played any of the super high in MB courses The Witch is the only one that I have played their that I make sure to play over and over.

The use of natural areas and to take what the site gave him is done with a deft hand that should not be ignored.

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't think we can characterize any of them as "easily the best of the bunch."  I can state that The Pit, built in 1985, must have influenced Mike Strantz to some degree and forced many designers outside their comfort zone.  It has amazing greens, in addition to a quarry/sand pit essence.

[Chris Buie]

I don't think we can characterize any of them as "easily the best of the bunch."

I've played many courses by Ellis and Dan.  I am very comfortable saying Ellis was easily the best of the bunch.  He would never have designed a course like Longleaf or Little River. 
I have not played Oyster Bay.  How good is it?  I've heard good things but I would be very suprised if it came anywhere near Grandfather. 

[Ed Oden]

I have played seven Ellis Maples courses that I know of (although one is about to be wiped clean soon).  They are all solid designs which I have generally enjoyed.  While there isn't a stinker in the bunch, there is also only one (Grandfather) that I think is truly noteworthy.  I honestly don't see a lot of similarity to Ross in terms of bunkers and green complexes.  But, as Chris Buie mentioned, they both used high ground for tees and greens.  So I find they have more in common when it comes to routing a course than the style of the finished product.

Ed

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

I've played many Maples (both Ellis and Dan) courses.  Both of them are very underrated in my opinion.  I think their regional (NC and SC) and small-town focus prevent them from getting their due in architecture circles.

Ellis was a superb router of courses.  He had a ton of creativity that helped him route holes that a lot of other designers wouldn't have seen... in my opinion.  While he does typically follow the high point to high point Ross pattern, he'll also mix in some blind tee shots and interesting doglegs.  His greens are generally very interesting with lots of subtle countours and varying pin locations.  I've always thought his bunker style left something to be desired.  They are often massive swaths of sand with no unique form.  Aside from that weakness, I can say that every Maples course I have played is interesting and fun... something you can't say about a lot of designers.

I've really enjoyed Dan's work as well.  As others have mentioned, the Pit is considered Tobacco Road Lite.  I really enjoy playing Willbrook Plantation and The Witch in Myrtle Beach.  I generally think he also gets a lot of the land, and also creates fun courses that are a joy to play over and over again.

[David Stamm]

Thanks guys. How is Gaston CC? It appears that Kris Spence did a really good job with the work he did there.

[Allan Long]

I've played many by both and I would agree with most that Ellis was the better of the two.

He would never have designed a course like Longleaf. 

I'm glad someone brought up Longleaf. One of the most schizophrenic back nines I've ever seen including three par threes in a four-hole stretch with a horrible par five shoehorned in between. Don't get me wrong, Dan did some nice courses that I enjoyed, and I don't think the Longleaf example is indicative of his designs; but that group of holes is one of the examples of his work that has stuck with me for some reason.

[Ronald Montesano]

Chris B.,

What exactly is not superlative about Little River?  I played Pit in the morning, Little River in the PM and, with the exception of a few wet spots, enjoyed Little River immensely.  I am certain that I will make a brave effort to counter your criticisms, so go hole by hole if you like and we'll have at it!!

Ron M.

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't think we can characterize any of them as "easily the best of the bunch."

I've played many courses by Ellis and Dan.  I am very comfortable saying Ellis was easily the best of the bunch.  He would never have designed a course like Longleaf or Little River. 
I have not played Oyster Bay.  How good is it?  I've heard good things but I would be very suprised if it came anywhere near Grandfather. 

Oyster Bay is very good, one of the better courses in the entire Myrtle Beach area.  As I said, I haven't seen Grandfather, but I don't know how you would make a meaningful comparison of a mountain vs. a beach course anyway.  Both are, I'm very sure, quite good.

[Brent Hutto]

I play a 1960 Ellis Maples course every week (Columbia CC) and the routing is pretty much all original although the green complexes range from slightly to more-than-slightly modified in a major renovation a decade ago. Some fairway bunker changes were made at the same time. But based on familiarity with what I'd call a 90% Ellis Maples I'd say it shares some general similarities with small-town courses by Donald Ross without seeming particularly Ross-like. The attractive and inviting opening hole (played as the 10th nowadays) looks a lot like openers I've seen on Ross courses for instance. And the overall routing and flow, a fairly compact and very walkable one, could pass for any number of Ross courses (as well as those of other architects working in that vein prior to the 1960's).

But Maples' use of the many ridges in our course seems different somehow from what I remember of Ross courses working across similar topography. I have a mental stereotype, no doubt unfair to Ross, of somewhat repetitive Par 4's and 5's that have an elevated tee from which the first shot plays to a ridge with lower ground in between. And then a similar second shot over the low ground on the other side of the ridge to a green situated atop or partly up the next rise. Not that we don't have such holes at the Columbia CC but some of those bits of ground are used more variably in the design of certain holes.

I do not recall the original green complexes but in their slightly modified current form we have a number of greens that are the equal in play or in visual appeal to some of my favorites at Ross courses. From what I know of our course I don't believe Ellis Maples was really "second best" in any sense as compared to his mentor. I need to play more of his courses in future.

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