[Jay Flemma]

I received a fascinating letter from Dr. Mark Mammel, the club historian for White Bear Yacht Club.  It seems the nine holes laid out by Willie Watson are a "lost nine" and that suspicions - and adamancy - that he designed what exists today are ill-founded and should be laid to rest.  It seems pretty clear that Willie Watson did NOT design White Bear.

Here's the letter.  It's long so it will take up two posts:

"I’d like to first thank Jay Flemma for posting this; I haven’t been able to join the site and have read the ongoing discussion with great interest.  It’s been really wonderful to see the interest and excitement about the White Bear Yacht Club’s golf course. We know it’s unusual, but it’s obvious that others find it worth a trip off the beaten path as well.  I’ve been a member since 1989, and have taken on the role of club historian.  But it’s obvious that many others in this thread have done quite a bit of digging, and speak with some authority!  I just want to add my bit; I don’t have the final answer either, but I believe the evidence that exists is persuasive that Ross played a role in the design of the golf course as it existed in the fall of 1915, when the second 9 opened.  Let me lay out what I have learned, and also what I speculate.

The Donald Ross connection for WBYC is based on a number of events, some well documented, others not.  One early bit of the historical record is the framed brochure about the club, displayed in the golf house and referred to by Tom MacWood in this discussion.  It includes photos of the course, a description of each hole by Tom Vardon, our second pro, and many other interesting bits of information.  The document has no date. Where did this come from? Why was it made? When? I suspect it was to promote the newly-expanded golf course (the first nine opened in 1912, the second nine in the fall of 1915) and the club in general.  I believe I’ve narrowed down the time of its printing based on some of those slippery facts. 

First, it has a facsimile signature of Tom Vardon, who came to the club in 1916, so it couldn’t have been published before that.  In the copy, it states that the course record at the time was 69, and was held by Tom Vardon and Walter Hagen.  I haven’t found an account of the Haig’s visit to the Yacht Club; I suspect that would be a good story in itself.  But Hagen and Vardon certainly knew each other.  Hagen, a young professional, came in 4th in his first US Open at Brookline in 1913, then won in 1914 at Midlothian CC, a few miles south of Chicago. Tom Vardon was the pro at Onwentsia in Chicago at that time, and played in both the 1913 and 1914 Open championships.  When Hagen won, he spent a fair bit of time touring and playing exhibition matches to capitalize on his Open victory.  Did Tom persuade him to visit the new WBYC course in 1915 or 1916? Tom’s famous brother Harry played the course in August of 1920, when he and Jim Barnes were barnstorming after the Open Championship (Barnes won over Vardon).  An article from the Pioneer Press states says Harry tied the course record of 67, established by Tom.  So the brochure we have was printed before 1920.  I think it was most likely put together in 1916 or 1917, to give the new course some publicity. Among the other interesting comments in the brochure is one that states that the course was based on “an original design by William Watson, and was developed by Donald Ross and Tom Vardon.”  This interesting comment needs some more discussion.

   William Watson, known as Willie, came to America from Scotland in 1898. He came from St. Andrews.  He had been summoned by Robert Foulis, another St. Andrean.  Foulis, who had earlier worked with Old Tom Morris designing a few courses in Scotland, had come to the States in 1896.  His brother James, who had emigrated in 1895, was building a course in Lake Forest at the Onwentsia Club; Robert came to help and stayed on as its first golf professional.  The Foulis brothers designed many fine courses throughout the midwest.  In 1902, they hit the St. Louis area, designing Bellrive CC among others; Robert stayed on there again as professional.  Some time shortly thereafter, they began work in Minneapolis.  Willie Watson and Robert Foulis are credited with the first 9 at Minikahda, which opened in 1906.  Watson stayed at Minikahda as pro/greenskeeper during the summer months until the World War.  He is given sole design credit for Interlachen’s original layout, in 1910.  He probably worked on a revision of T&C, credited to Robert Foulis, around this time as well.

   So how does Ross find his way into this story?  We know he was at the lake in 1910, meeting with interested members at the Ordway home, regarding the first 9 holes. What little we know comes from the first club history published in 1961 by Dr. Carl Drake.  In a chapter by Margaret MacLaren on women's golf, she tells the following story:

"On a Sunday noon, the summer of 1910, she [Mrs. John G. Ordway] was lunching at the home of her father-in-law, Lucius P. Ordway, at Dellwood.  Among the guests besides herself were William Mitchell, Henry Schurmeier, and Donald Ross, a very well-known golf course architect.  These gentlemen were discussing plans for a nine-hole course for the White Bear Yacht Club."

Was Watson there as well?  No record.  Did the Yacht Club provide Ross’ entree into the Twin Cities?  The timing fits.  While I have found no original Watson plan, the “development” by Ross and Vardon mentioned in our brochure must have been done in the 1910-1912 time frame. After Ross was called in, the routing was revised and the second 9 laid out. This 9 hole course was opened for play in 1912, and with the dedication of the new A.H. Stem clubhouse in 1913, golf became the main activity of the club.  The second 9 was completed over the next 3 years, and the 18 hole course opened for play on August 20, 1915." 


[POSTER'S NOTE.  THE LETTER CONTININUES IN THE NEXT POST]

[Jay Flemma]

[THE LETTER FROM DR. MAMMEL CONTINUES...]

Though the extent of Ross's actual involvement is unknown, it is fun to speculate.  I wonder if Ross met members of the Ordway family in Pinehurst during those early years of the 20th century.  These early meetings then lead to a trip to White Bear Lake, and the lunch meeting.  From these contacts came the commission for a golf course.  We have the brochure, with its hole-by-hole descriptions, and the survey map (also mentioned by Tom MacWood and reproduced in Brad Klein’s book) from 1915 all of which show the course in essentially the same layout as it is today.  We also know that Ross designed Woodhill, which opened in 1916.  And, interestingly, Ross extensively revised both Minikahda (1917) and Interlachen (1919).  All of this suggests that he was at least in and out of the Twin Cities during 1915-1919.  In addition, Ross’s fame was just beginning to spread during this decade. He hadn’t yet hired the large team able to construct a number of courses simultaneously, without much on-site supervision. The timing of the Woodhill design as much as anything solidifies our own layout’s credit to Ross.

   What is Tom Vardon’s connection with the design?  He didn’t become pro until 1916, and the design was clearly done and built before then.  A couple of possibilities present themselves.  Vardon was pro at Onwentsia from 1911-1915 - the club that Robert Foulis had designed and where he had earlier been pro.  Vardon was a well-known player, and the immigrant Scots were all known to each other.  Perhaps Vardon knew Watson and Foulis from the old country.  He certainly knew Foulis, from Onwentsia at the very least, but likely before as well. The Scottish pros were a select group, known to each other both from competition and from the informal connections which kept them abreast of jobs and competitions where a dollar could be earned. So Tom could have been informally involved as the Yacht Club was laid out, perhaps even with an eye to the pro’s job.  But that may be assuming more forethought and planning in a life which was mostly hard work followed by the odd dram.

I think another scenario is more likely, though I admit I have only intuition and few facts to back it up.  I suspect Watson laid out a preliminary 9 hole routing for us sometime between 1906-1910, when he was at Minikahda.  Either because the layout wasn’t entirely satisfactory, or because Donald Ross was becoming increasingly well-known because of Pinehurst, Ross was called in during 1910.  He then finalized the plans and routed the 2nd 9, which all became reality when the course opened in 1915.  Tom Vardon may have been involved before he became pro, even perhaps leading to his appointment; his being credited for “development” may also have been a testimony to ego, added since he was the pro when the brochure was published, and a prominent one at that.  I suspect we’ll never know for sure.  No design maps still exist from either Watson’s original layout- and wouldn’t that be fascinating to see- or Ross’s, though the map we have is very strong evidence, since it is contemporaneous with the course’s opening.  I think we can continue to credit our current design to Ross, though Mr. Watson gets the nod for a lost original 9. Did Ross do the layout from maps?

This is harder to resolve, as any documents the club had were destroyed in the clubhouse fire of 1937. The article Mr. MacWood refers to from “The Golfer” in 1925 states “William Watson laid it out. Donald Ross gave freely of his advice and Tom Vardon, the professional at the club, was of great assistance.”  Cornish and Whitten, in the 1993 edition of The Architects of Golf, credit Ross with the design. Our consulting architect, Tom Doak, has extensively evaluated the property and the map, and concurs that the layout is classic Ross. If Watson did it alone, it leaps above anything else credited to him.  But really, Watson, Ross, Vardon- whether some or all of them, the result is a great layout which is still a delight to play, both for the scratch player and the rest of us."

[THE LETTER ENDS]

[Phil McDade]

Jay:

Thanks for posting this; as others have said, I think it's important that these sort of historical attributions for golf courses are pieced together, regardless of where they lead us.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, too, Jay.  One very minor niggle with Dr. Mamel's fine piece is the implication that Tom Vardon was a Scot.  He was from Jersey.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

Thanks for posting this; as others have said, I think it's important that these sort of historical attributions for golf courses are pieced together, regardless of where they lead us.

I agree that we should seek the truth, but we shouldn't go around claiming that such and such a course is designed by so-and-so and not so-and-so without proof.

[Phil McDade]

Jay:

Thanks for posting this; as others have said, I think it's important that these sort of historical attributions for golf courses are pieced together, regardless of where they lead us.

I agree that we should seek the truth, but we shouldn't go around claiming that such and such a course is designed by so-and-so and not so-and-so without proof.

Jay:

I agree -- what I've learned in the many threads that have debated course origins, as well as some of my own digging and experiences, is that these histories aren't necessarily neat and tidy, but sometimes involve small or slow changes, some of them even accidental in nature, that can blur the distinctions that historians always look for. For instance, I was struck in recently visiting Beverly CC in Chicago -- viewed as one of Ross' great routings and top-tier courses -- how much George O'Neil was involved in its original routing, how much of that routing still exists (roughly half the course essentially follows O'Neil's original hole routings), as well as the tangental efforts of folks like Bendelow and RB Harris (all well-documented in Tim Cronin's 100-year history of the club). Nearly all courses are evolving things, and except for maybe a few rare exceptions -- the Fownes family at Oakmont perhaps -- it seems that most courses have many thumbprints on them, even in their infancy.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I think your case would be stronger if you didn't bring me into it.

I do not have any idea of the history of the course.  Whether Ross or Watson or even someone else should receive credit for the design, it's a unique course -- enough that I couldn't begin to tell you with certainty who did it.  I have never seen Ross greens OR Watson greens as wild as those at White Bear Yacht Club.  Anything I've said about its pedigree was based on being told it was a Ross course, and was meant only to express praise for the work that was done -- not to confirm its origins.

[Jay Flemma]

Tom thank you for jumping in...and by the way, this is Jay, not Mark.  Mark is reading though and hopefully will someday become a member of the site...

Anyway, Tom what are some of your favorite features of WBYC?

Phil, I agree.  I especially think we have to be careful with newspaper articles because we don't know if the person who wrote it knew golf or not!  Even reading the paper today it's a big difference if the golf article is written by say Hank Gola, an expert on golf and golf design or say, for example, Sean Salisbury, who I don't think could find any hole on the course but the 19th! (but hey, he did a great job broadcasting the Victoria's Secret Lingerie Bowl

But 100 years from now, someone could find a Salisbury article and say "hey! Look what this guy said" and end up doing damage to the true record instead of clarifying it.  We have to be careful with sources...even primary sources like Ross's list of courses that TomMacWood was talking about in the other thread.

[RJ_Daley]

Mark Mammel said:

I haven’t been able to join the site and have read the ongoing discussion with great interest.

It seems to me that if Mark wishes to join the DG, he ought to be given his registration forthwith.  We can always use gents that have the kind of keen interest that they would go so far as volunteer to be a club historian. 

Thanks Mark for your thoughtful letter to Jay.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It seems to me that there isn't one person who is disagreeing with Tom MacWood who has put any effort into finding out what Tom has, save Mark Mammel.

Flemma has done nothing on his own, McDade has done nothing, Stamm has done nothing, Lyon (by his own admission) has only done 'preliminary' research(read what he says he did, he isn't kidding about its being preliminary), Warren has done next to nothing, Topp has done next to nothing, Carlton has done nothing, etc..

There probably isn't one guy listed that has spent any time at the Tuft's Archives doing any research at all about Ross or WBYC, or poured over as much print as can be found in other archival sources.

You fellas hardly have a leg to stand on. 

[David Stamm]

It seems to me that there isn't one person who is disagreeing with Tom MacWood who has put any effort into finding out what Tom has, save Mark Mammel.

Flemma has done nothing on his own, McDade has done nothing, Stamm has done nothing, Lyon (by his own admission) has only done 'preliminary' research(read what he says he did, he isn't kidding about its being preliminary), Warren has done next to nothing, Topp has done next to nothing, Carlton has done nothing, etc..

There probably isn't one guy listed that has spent any time at the Tuft's Archives doing any research at all about Ross or WBYC, or poured over as much print as can be found in other archival sources.

You fellas hardly have a leg to stand on. 

What do I have to do with this?

[Carl Johnson]

Great discussion.  I appalud Mark for his interest, investingation and insights.  He needs to become a member of the site.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
Very little, but it was either you or Sweeney 

[David Stamm]

David,
Very little, but it was either you or Sweeney 

I would've picked Sweeney.

[DMoriarty]

Dr.  Mammel,

Thank you for the information about your course.  It sounds like a terrific place regardless of who was primarily responsible for the design.   It also seems like you have a healthy understanding of how difficult these things are to figure out exactly and are willing to go where the facts take you.  

Like Tom MacWood I am skeptical of treating prior club histories as entirely accurate and correct, despite the author's best intentions.   They are great starting places but where possible one should verify the information in them as best as possible.   In the spirit of trying to get at what really happened I offer the following comments and questions.

-- The club history was written after the vast majority of the source material was lost in a fire.  So the author did not necessarily have better source information than you do now.  And with the advent of the internet and the digitization of historical records and newspapers, you may have access to more information than the author.  

-- The club history reports that Ross had lunch with some members in the summer of 1910, and that they discussed "plans for a nine-hole course for the White Bear Yacht Club."    But White Bear already had a nine hole course in the summer of 1910, didn't it?  If so (and unless I am missing something which I may be) I am not sure I would rely on this date.   For that matter, do we know for sure that the lunch was with Ross, or could it have been with a different well known golf course architect?

-- The 1925 "Golfer" article actually appears to be a brief description and history of the origins of your club, written by one of the leaders of the club.  It was written only ten years after the 18 hole course was completed and, according to the letter, changes were still being contemplated.   While not perfect, this article seems to be by far the best document you have, because surely Commodore  Graves had better information in 1961 than the author of the club history did in 1961.  That being said, one might follow up on this article as well, by exploring questions such as:  Who was Commodore Graves?  Was he an active member at the time the course was reportedly planned? Were those who were reportedly involved in planning the course still active in the club in 1925?   Is there any reason to think the 1925 history might not be accurate?  
--  Below is an article from July 25, 1911 article from the Duluth News Tribune.  From the article:

Of these, two clubs were recently organized, the Interlachen Club of Minneapolis and the White Bear club, whose sponsors and founders are the men who make the lake their summer home.  The club has a nine hole course which is now being developed for play another season.

A few things I found interesting.
-- I am aware that WBYC had existed for sometime before this, so I assume that the article is referring to the golf component of the club.
-- There was reportedly a 9 hole course but it was apparently being changed or redone.  ("developed for play another season.")
-- This was going on at about the same time when Interlachen built thier course, which reportedly opened July 29, 1911.    

Is it possible that WBYC had a primitive nine before Willie Watson became involved, and that Willie Watson designed the course around the same time he designed Interlachen?

Is it also possible that Ross freely offered his advice in the late teens, when he was also advising at Interlachen?

Did the two clubs have an overlapping membership?

Thanks again for sharing the information here. 



_____________________________________

Jay, your subject line overstates things by a lot.   What are the primary sources to which the subject line refers?   Surely not the club history, which is not a primary source.   And is the "letter" Dr. Mammel's??

Also, I am not sure the basis for you casting doubt on the 1925 article, since it was apparently written by an officer of the club and is essentially a club description and history.  

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Your speculation makes no sense. On one hand you try to make the case Ross was involved in 1910, and then you speculate Watson laid out the original course in 1912, and that course was unsatisfactory so they called in Ross in 1915 to layout the new 18.

Why would Watson design the 1912 course if Ross was involved in 1910? Why did it take two years (1910 to 1912) to complete the course?

I don't see any new information other than more details regarding the Ross visit in the summer of 1910. Am I missing something?

In the summer of 1910 Ross was in the UK. See the article below from May 1910. I do not know precisely when he left but I do know he played in the Open at St. Andrews in June of 1910 and I do know he returned September 13, 1910. There is no record of Ross being within 1000 miles of the Twin Cities in 1910. And I would beg to differ with the description of Ross being a very well-known golf architect in '10. Ross was a well known professional (especially in Massachusetts and Pinehurst) who desired to become, and eventually became, a well-known golf architect, but not in 1910.

Where did you get the info that Foulis summoned Watson? Watson designed Minikahda in 1899 (see below), the jury is still out on if he was involved in 1906 (or 1910). Watson only stayed at Minikahda for two years. His summer home in the 1900s was Thousand Island in NY. By the way he never went by the name Willie. Robert Foulis left Town & Country (Minneapolis) for St. Louis in 1902, but it was Glen Echo not Bellerive. He went to Bellerive in 1910.

The magazine article from 1925 claim Watson laid out the 18-hole course. The Commodore of the Club, WG Graves wrote: "Without haste and with caution, upon the soundest advice procurable and with an eye always on the future, an eighteen hole course was planned. William Watson laid it out. Donald Ross gave freely of advise in its development and Tom Vardon, the professional at the Club as of great assistance." The pamphlet said basically the same thing. It seems pretty clear to me who designed the course, why is this so difficult to swallow? Ross listed Minikahda, Interlachen, and Woodhill, but not White Bear YC, shouldn't that be a good indication of how involved he was?

I think Watson was more accomplished than what you perceive. I think the case could be made that he was the preceptor of the California golf architecture movement, and had a big influence on Bell, Thomas, Macbeth and the rest of them. Olympic Club-Ocean may be his greatest accomplishment. He was also very influential in Chicago. When Bernard Darwin was quite critical of Onwentsia in 1913 (T. Vardon was the pro), who was called in to redesign the course? William Watson. He also redesigned Ravisloe (he contributed the drawings in Bauers famous book 'Hazards' [1913] the man who was the main force at Ravisloe) and Homewood around that time, and was heavily involved at Olympia Fields a little later.

Why didn't Ross list WBYC?

[RJ_Daley]

Are there any specific design features at WBLYC that can be directly attributable to Don Herfort  Was that membership somewhat dominated by 3-M people back in those 60s-70s-80s era, and did those people influence using Herfort to do things, what things?    

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Let me add that I have no doubt Ross was involved at some point, as I have stated many times before, probably early on and coinciding with his work at the other courses around the Twin Cities. I agree with your analysis of the timing of the pamphlet based on the course records being set. That being said, clearly whatever Ross did it was relatively minor based on the fact the course is little changed since 1915, the magazine article and pamphlet both describe his contribution as advice, and Ross never listed the course.

[Jay Flemma]

This is Jay answering for the moment, while Dr. Mammel reads the responses.  Excuse me, Jim Kennedy, but I've been to play the golf course and can compare and contrast what I saw on the ground to other Ross's.

Tom M...what you think and what can be conclusively proved are two different things.  Maybe Ross's list is just incomplete.  Why don't you post the entire list you have?  That way we can see if he left out anything else that was proved to be his.  just because he didn't put a course on a quickly drafted list for commercial purposes is not an indictment.  Might you perhaps read too much into things, then refuse to ever admit you might be wrong?

Dr. Mammel will respond shortly and I will post his reply.

[TEPaul]

.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Excuse me, Jim Kennedy, but I've been to play the golf course and can compare and contrast what I saw on the ground to other Ross's.- Jay Flemma


I don't really know whether Donald Ross was ever at WBYC or not, and neither does the club.  Based on those facts, I was disappointed to see myself quoted by the Ross Society........ I have always thought there were a number of great holes at the club but I don't know if they are Ross's, in fact, my quote was meant to say that there are really a number of holes there that are nothing like I've seen of his work elsewhere.  However, I have no proof it isn't his work, either.- Tom Doak

In the case of WBYC, whether Donald Ross or Willie Watson or someone else laid out the course, there was another guy who did the shaping of the greens, who did some wild work. - Tom Doak


Jay,
I'm sorry, but I don't think I need to flip a coin to choose from the above.

[David Stamm]

  That being said, clearly whatever Ross did it was relatively minor based on the fact the course is little changed since 1915, the magazine article and pamphlet both describe his contribution as advice, and Ross never listed the course.

I don't want to rehash the Merion debate, but how is this any different from what was being argued about that course?

[Jay Flemma]

Jim, that tired, senseless argument is nonsense.  

Tom Paul brings up a great point...this is not some court case where you can throw up whatever you find against the wall and hope it sticks.  We should not re-write club histories without PROOF.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Not at all TEPaul, I wouldn't try to stifle any discussion. My post was meant to be taken as it was written, i.e.no one who has been disagreeing with Tom MacWood has offered any kind of evidence that disputes what he has said. That's pretty easy to understand.

In other of these attribution threads you have gone head to head with him but your gun had live ammo, not blanks.

[Jay Flemma]

Yes they have.  The evidence presented by Dr. Mammel is FAR more compelling than MacWoods unsupported surmises.

Just because Tom Doak says he doesn't think the course knows for sure doesn't make him right.  The club seems fairly certain, despite what Tom says.

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