[Patrick_Mucci]

What are the best back to back par 5's
YOU"VE EVER PLAYED,
and why.

I'm struggling between Seminole and Baltusrol lower.

[jerry_k (Guest)]

I would say that two fine par 5s are numbers 9 & 10 at Congressional.  9 is fairly straight forward and very long with a ravine at about 120 yards out and a very severe green. 10 is a relatively short with an unusual elevated tee to an uphill fairway with a stream up the right side which is a pond next to the green and bunkers left.  10 was played as a par 4 at the 97 Open and was absolute hell for the players.  Els won and I am convinced that he intentionally played short of the green in the final round and he chipped in for birdie which won him the tournament.  

[jerry_k (Guest)]

I wanted to also mention that I have always wondered what the fascination is with 17 and 18 at Baltusrol. I recognize the history of the course and its proximity to USGA headquarters, but are they really that memorable.  Can anyone think of what I would consider to be modern era courses that have back to back par 5s or back to back par 3s.  Would a modern architect allow this to occur or would he do everything he could to avoid it.  

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
 What are the distinguishing features/strategy of those holes that make them so good? What strengths/weaknesses of each set makes it a toss up?

Jerry,
 Pacific Dunes has back to back par 3's, so Doak doesn't consider it necessary to avoid. Take a look at Pac Dunes layout sometime on their website. The scorecard looks bizarre when you see the sequence of holes and all the par 3's, but once you are playing the course it flows so well that the "unbalanced" structure of holes doesn't even enter your mind.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

5 and 6 at Cypress Point are excellent, as are 16 and 17 at the Cascades. But the best in 6 and 7 at Cape Breton, followed by 15 and 16 at Cape Breton.

[Paul Richards]

I'll take #17 and 18 at Baltusrol.
 

[Matt_Ward]

A sleeper choice I can offer is the 8th and 9th at the Banks Course at Forsgate (Jamesburg, NJ).

The 8th is 567 long yards uphill and usually into the prevailing wind. Getting home in three shots is usually the key for any player and it starts right at the tee. The uphill slope makes the player believe you will never get to the green. In my mind the hole is easily a toss-up when compared to the 17th at the Lower / Baltusrol. In addition, the green is wonderfully contoured by Banks and when the pin is rear left you had better not miss to the left because you will need hiking boots and pitons to climb back to the green. A classic pure three-shotter that I've ever played.

The 9th at the Banks Course is just under 500 yards and plays into the same direction but it offers a risk / reward element as the player must decide what to do at the tee -- be aggressive to propel your tee shot over a slight rise to be in position for a long approach or play for position and opt the hole as a three-shotter. Any player attempting to go for the green in two had better land a Nicklausian approach that is HIGH AND SOFT. Miss left and you will find a bunker that is sooooo deep you will need a 70 degree wedge! Steam shovel wasn't called steam shovel for nothing.

The Banks Course is hardly appreciated by a great many people -- especially in the metro area of New York and Philly which the course is equidistant in time and mileage from.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom is spot on with Cape Breton, Seminole too.

Cascades and Old Course at the Homestead sport two, neither are the same calibre as above.

[mike_beene]

Shady Oaks has back to back fives #14 & #15.I like the way it breaks up a tough stretch of holes. off the subject ,I thihk this course is generally underrated.I don't see how so many people are in love with a flat riverbottoms course like Colonial.Sorry for the diversion.

[ChrisB (Guest)]

Walden on Lake Conroe GC (north of Houston) has 3 par 5's in a row covering almost 1700 yards , #s 9-11; they are all pretty good holes and sufficiently different from one another, but nothing really special; just a novelty, I guess.

[Mike_Cirba]

I like Baltusrol's final two a great deal.

17 is a true three shot deal for virtually everyone, and for most average players the carry across the Hell's Half Acre feature is exhilerating on the second.  The approach to a tight, semi-blind green is exacting, as well.

The drive on 18 is one where you think you might be able to get there in two, and heaven forbid the guy who overcooks the draw on the right to left hole.  All of a sudden, the creek, and a whole lot of other ugly possibilities start rearing their ugly heads.  From the fairway, looking up at the distant green, do you go for it, realizing that it's a high risk shot to try to carry the fronting bunker?  Or, if you lay up, where is best on the side sloping fairway?  

Even without the history, these are two very good holes that are a ton of fun.

[ChipOat]

Inwood has 2 good ones on the front nine - the #'s escape me but Brad Klein could help.

There's 2 issues here:

1) I'm not sure I know 2 really good ones back-to-back.  To me, #17 at B'rol is a good hole and 18 is better than OK but no barn burner.  I've played Seminiole in all kinds of wind (including none at all) and the par 5's just don't seem quite hard enough for my taste but perhaps I've just been luckly there.

2) I think good par 5's are the hardest to design "one at a time".  Two really good ones in a row might be darn near impossible.

[BCrosby]

Seems to me no. 14 at Seminole is one of the least interesting holes on the course.  No. 15, however, is one of the most interesting, though it plays a little short these days.

The two par 5 finishing holes at Wolf Creek (ATL) are good holes.  Drives and lay-ups on both require some thought.  Both have interesting and attractive green surrounds.

Bob    

[GeoffreyC]

BCrosby

I love the 14th at Seminole.  I believe the position of the water pinching into both sides of the fairway makes the second shot very interesting depending on the wind and whether your tee shot found the fairway.  What's really wonderful is the position of the green high above the fairway atop the ridge.  Seeing only 1/2 of the flagstick and absolutely not wanting to get above the pin make the pitch very exacting and precise.  In windy firm conditions its a lot of fun.

Seminole has so many fantastic golf holes perhaps your saying it is one of the least interesting on the course wasn't meant as a negative  

[Matt_Cohn]

Although I wouldn't rate them as high as Baltusrol's, Los Angeles North #1 and #2 are both par-5's. The interesting thing is how different they are.

#1 is fairly short, wide, straight, slightly downhill, to a green that slopes away.
#2 is fairly long, tightly treelined, dogleg right, slightly uphill, to a green that slopes towards the golfer.

At Baltusrol as well, the #17 and #18 are very different.

#2 and #3 at Point O'Woods are par-5's. I like #2 but I didn't think #3 was one of the better holes.

By the way, what if you start on #10 at Baltusrol? Then you play 3 par 5's in a row - #17, #18, and #1 (which is converted to a par-4 in big tournaments). Surely that couldn't happen anywhere else?

[Ed_Baker]

"that I have ever played..." Seminole.

My home course has back to back par 5's that used to be as good as any on #'s 15 & 16. But the 15th was bastardized in 1978. In it's present form it is an o.k. 520 yard hole. In it's original form it was a spectacular 500 yard classic risk/reward hole. Followed by the daunting uphill 550 yard 16th to a nasty green that is still our #2 handicap hole.

Originally there was a cliff in the middle of the 15th hole that had railroad ties for steps that ran diagonally down the face. The rest of the face was gravel and scrub vegetation. There was a narrow brook that ran diagonally across the fairway from left to right approximately from thirty to sixty yards short of the green from closest on the left to farthest on the right. The tee shot on the original hole could not travel more than 255 yards combined fly and roll or the ball would disappear over the edge of the cliff in to what many times was a putter recovery to the lower fairway if you could even find the ball. The play from the perfect tee shot (250 yards) would leave 250 to the middle of the green playing from a level lie, with the stream eating up any bail out slices or thin running shots. Or if the wind was up the good player could hit seven or eight iron and leave 100 yard wedge.

The hole now has flattened the face of the cliff with the entire area fairway and the brook is about a thirty yard deep marshy water hazard that runs the entire width of the approach area. The big hitters now blast it over what used to be the peak of the cliff and the ball runs down to the lower fairway leaving short iron in. If the ball doesn't make it all the way to the flat it leaves the good player with 170 to 180 yards off a severe downhill lie.

My problem with the hole now is that the weaker player can literally hit a ground ball second shot and still only have 150 or less in to the green. A lot of 4 net 3's are made in tournaments,tough to take late in the match. the original hole was a legitimate three shotter for most players.

The problem we have now is that more than half of the membership never played the original hole and think the current one is just fine.

This is the only "bastard" to an otherwise good restoration effort. It pisses me off every weekend,can you tell?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jerry K,

I had forgotten about # 9 and # 10, they are terrific.

Chris B,

Did Von Hagge design that course ?

Pine Tree's # 9 and # 10 are so-so as # 10 was originally a par 4, and should be considered same again.

# 17 at Baltusrol is a legitimate three shotter, something that seems to be disappearing today.  I find # 18 has a little quirk.

Seminole's two are interesting because of direction, hazards and effect of the wind.  On a rare calm day, one's evaluation could change substantially.

[Jeff Fortson]

#16 & #17 Olympic Club (Lake)

I know the USGA plays 17 as a par four in the US Open but on the members' scorecard it's a 5 par.

Jeff F.

[Gib_Papazian]

Olympic Lake #16 & #17

Two very different holes.

[Dunlop_White]

Upper Cascades, Hot Springs, Virginia at The Homestead!

Holes 16 and 17 are back to back par 5's which noone has mentioned. Both are interesting in that they are reachable, although attempting such on Hole 16 is not advisable unless you can put some exacting loft on your long second shot. The green is guarded by a collection pond in front, and mountain wilderness abbutts the rear.

Hole 17 is a great "s" shaped par 5. The tee shot requires a draw while your second shot demands a long fade into the green, the degrees of which will determine your fate. An eagle 3 possible! Yet a double bogey 7 is too! Hole 17 represents a fair example of a risk/reward par 5 that requires some mental elements, such as thought and strategy.

Hole 16 and hole 17 require accuracy, carries, and length. To mould all three tests together in a single shot, according to Flynn, will bring the greatest reward in his architecture.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dunlop,

Ben Dewar mentioned Cascades earlier in the thread.



The only b-b par 5's I can think of that I've played are at LACC (North), mentioned above.  LA North has a great set of par 5's overall.  The par 3's aren't bad either.

I've played a 9-holer (Addison, NY, Pinnacle SP) that started and finished with a par 5. Play 18 and that's b-b par 5's.

[Stan Dodd]

What about 17 and 18 at Carnoustie!! Last time I made bogey on both of them.... oh they are par 4.  

[Bob_Huntley]

What about Riviera's 1 and 2(members). The second is a fantastic hole, long, difficult, exquisitely bunkered, lightning fast green and resistant to scoring.... oh, I forgot to mention, I had a two there once.

[JAMIE_BLACK]

WENTWORTH, SURREY ENGLAND.

#17 & #18.  TWO TOUGH PAR 5'S THAT HAVE BROUGHT TOO MANY GREAT FINISHES TO WORLD MATCHPLAY CHAMPIONSHIPS TO MENTION.

[Paul Turner]

The best that I know are the 16th and 17th at Pennard (see the course profile section).  

The 16th is one of the world's great holes, moving left to right and tumbling down towards the sea to a steeply pitched green.  And the 17th is very different and quirky, it's right to left and uphill with steeply banked fairway and a risky second shot over banks of gorse.

The 6th and 7th at Royal Lytham are fine pair too.  They also compliment eachother.  The 6th, right to left, over humpy terrain to a heavily bunkered slightly raised green; the 7th is flatter and left to right with the green in a hollow.

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