[Dan Kelly]

I recently got my first look at White Bear Yacht Club (White Bear Lake, Minnesota) -- which none of you should dare miss, if you ever get the chance. As others have testified, here and elsewhere, it's really, really good.

I was supposed to be playing in my first tournament as a geezer (the Minnesota Senior Championship, in which I couldn'ta been a contender, though I wouldn'ta cared) -- but I hurt my leg and had to WD. So I went out to the first day of the tournament, to see the course. After all, seeing the course was the main reason I'd entered the tournament.

Figured I should take a camera. Good thinking, huh? (Emoticon omitted.)

Last night, I used -- for the first time -- a photobucket account I opened a couple of years ago. Slick. I don't have time to annotate the pictures, now (or maybe ever), but they should be attractive to those of you who -- in the words of Chauncey Gardener -- "like to watch...."

They start at the first tee and end at the 18th green (with only a couple of glances back from one hole to the previous -- from 3 tee back to 2 green-and-fairway, and from 4 FW back to 3 green are the only ones I can recall.) I'd be curious to know what you can see, without any annotations!

Check 'em out at http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kellys17_photos/library/White%20Bear%20Yacht%20Club%202009?sort=2&page=1. Sort by "Newest First" to go from 1 tee to 18 green. I recommend the Full Screen version.

One note: For some reason, my picture from the tee at 18 didn't make the journey to photobucket. It's an EXTRAORDINARY tee shot, straight over a steep hill and absolutely, completely blind.

(Just watched it, myself. Several other pictures didn't make it, either. Oh, well. Still pretty slick.)

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - thanks very much.  Great pictures, and my first ever look at White Bear.  Please excuse the off-the-cuff (and as I read them again, superficial) first impressions:

1) That is EXACTLY what a course in Minnesota should look like.

2) I've only seen Ross courses in photos -- and I've never been more impressed by a Ross course than I was by White Bear. Not by a long shot.

3) You've got to change your tag-line: "Emoticon opponent. Twitter-free. Ga-ga over Photobucket".

Thanks again
Peter

[David Stamm]

Thanks Dan. The fairway's on 7,9,10 and 13 are incredible! Does the first have an Alps element to the greensite?

[Doug Wright]

Thanks for the great photos Dan. I'll bet Ross had a field day putting a course together on that incredible topography. The short 3rd looks like a real gem.

[Bill_McBride]

Only looked at first five holes so far, and boy do I want to play there some day!

Love the little par 3 #3, what a terror, it would fit in well with the par 3s at Dornoch.

And I really think the fairway that runs into the fifth green is a wonderful look with that drop off to the right.  What a cool course.

[Tom MacWood]

Dan
Thanks for sharing the pictures.

What a great layout with some very wild terrain, and wild greens, but it isn't a Ross course, that is, according to Ross. Ross made an advertising pamphlet (circa 1930) that listed his designs. You will not find WBY on his list, and that is because it was designed by William Watson.

[David Stamm]

Dan
Thanks for sharing the pictures.

What a great layout with some very wild terrain, and wild greens, but it isn't a Ross course, that is, according to Ross. Ross made an advertising pamphlet (circa 1930) that listed his designs. You will not find WBY on his list, and that is because it was designed by William Watson.

So by this line of reasoning, Tom, since CBM never mentioned Merion then, uh, never mind......

[JNC Lyon]

Tom MacWood,

It is all well and good to post newspaper articles that list Watson as the designer, but you provide no date or convincing evidence that this article is reliable.  I agree, however, that the Ross pamphlet is very intriguing.  It would make sense that he would list even a consultation at WBYC in his advertisements.  On the other hand, Ross had designed and consulted at so many courses by the 1930s that it was likely not worth his while to list every last consultation.

I did some preliminary research on the original design history of WBYC.  In Brad Klein's book, Discovering Donald Ross, he lists WBYC as possessing an original Ross design.  It says that he built two new nines at separate times, the first in 1912 and the second in 1916.  Klein lists that a plan exists for the course, but he also states that he was never confirmed to be on site for construction.  Indeed, Ross produced plans for courses, such as the second 18 at The Country Club in Brookline, that were never built.  It would be interesting to see how closely Ross's master plan coincides with the current layout, or at least a 1930s or 1950s version of the layout.

In Cornish and Whitten's book, The Golf Course, the only listing for the White Bear Yacht Club is Don Herfort's 1968 redesign.  While it is clear that the course was originally built in the early 1900s, Cornish and Whitten list no design credit for Ross, Watson, or any other golden age architect.  This indicates that there was some confusion about the original architect of the course.  Perhaps The Architects of Golf and its compilation of architects could shed more light on this dilemma?

While this article is interesting, it is thusfar neither persuasive nor reliable.  A few questions remain:

• What is the source of the article and how viable is this source?
  

• Is there any other listing that shows Watson as the original architect?
  

• What were Ross's plans (as listed in Klein's book) for the course?
  

• When did Watson construct the course?
  

• When was a golf course first built at WBYC?
  

[Mike Sweeney]

Here is some additional info:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/united_states/minnesota/white_bear_yacht_club_golf_course_donald_ross_1.aspx

[JNC Lyon]

Here is some additional info:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/united_states/minnesota/white_bear_yacht_club_golf_course_donald_ross_1.aspx

There is some good stuff there.  The 1910 diary entry of the WBYC member that shows Ross as an original collaborator is very interesting evidence to support him as the original designer.  It would seem that he would have been on-site for the design since he was involved with a few other quality projects.

Interesting too is Tom Vardon's role in the course construction.  His brother did very little in the way of golf course design as I understand it, so it would be good to know if his contribution to the field of golf course architecture extended beyond WBYC.

Perhaps the timeline at Interlachen, where both Watson and Ross did work, could shed some light on this history?

[hick]

I read the article in links magazine a few hours ago, and checked the back of Mike fays book on Ross and the course is listed as 1912.  Thanks for the pics.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

It is all well and good to post newspaper articles that list Watson as the designer, but you provide no date or convincing evidence that this article is reliable.  I agree, however, that the Ross pamphlet is very intriguing.  It would make sense that he would list even a consultation at WBYC in his advertisements.  On the other hand, Ross had designed and consulted at so many courses by the 1930s that it was likely not worth his while to list every last consultation.

The article is from the The Golfer magazine May 1925. The author was the commodore of the club, which I assume it equivalent to the club president. WBY is currently listed a Ross design, not a consultation. I would agree with you Ross did not list minor redesigns or consultationa in his pamphlet, or original designs that had been subsequently redesigned (Bob O'Link for example). In my study of Ross's list there is always a good reason why he does not list a course, and in the case WBY the reason is he did not design the course and did not dramatically redesign the course.

I did some preliminary research on the original design history of WBYC.  In Brad Klein's book, Discovering Donald Ross, he lists WBYC as possessing an original Ross design.  It says that he built two new nines at separate times, the first in 1912 and the second in 1916.  Klein lists that a plan exists for the course, but he also states that he was never confirmed to be on site for construction.  Indeed, Ross produced plans for courses, such as the second 18 at The Country Club in Brookline, that were never built.  It would be interesting to see how closely Ross's master plan coincides with the current layout, or at least a 1930s or 1950s version of the layout.

A plan does exist and its on page 116 of Brad's book, but its not by Ross or Watson, its a land plan done by a local landscape architect. The Tufts Archive has nothing on White Bear YC, and i've looked.

In Cornish and Whitten's book, The Golf Course, the only listing for the White Bear Yacht Club is Don Herfort's 1968 redesign.  While it is clear that the course was originally built in the early 1900s, Cornish and Whitten list no design credit for Ross, Watson, or any other golden age architect.  This indicates that there was some confusion about the original architect of the course.  Perhaps The Architects of Golf and its compilation of architects could shed more light on this dilemma?

While this article is interesting, it is thusfar neither persuasive nor reliable.  A few questions remain:

• What is the source of the article and how viable is this source? The Golfer, a magazine based in Chicago.
  

• Is there any other listing that shows Watson as the original architect? Not to my knowledge. The loan remaining remnant from the clubhouse fire acknowledges Watson, as does the article I posted, I have no knowledge of anything else.
  

• What were Ross's plans (as listed in Klein's book) for the course? If you have magnifying glass you can read the explanation on that map.
  

• When did Watson construct the course? 1915
  

• When was a golf course first built at WBYC? The first nine in 1912.
  

[Tom MacWood]

Here is some additional info:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/united_states/minnesota/white_bear_yacht_club_golf_course_donald_ross_1.aspx

There is some good stuff there.  The 1910 diary entry of the WBYC member that shows Ross as an original collaborator is very interesting evidence to support him as the original designer.  It would seem that he would have been on-site for the design since he was involved with a few other quality projects.

Interesting too is Tom Vardon's role in the course construction.  His brother did very little in the way of golf course design as I understand it, so it would be good to know if his contribution to the field of golf course architecture extended beyond WBYC.

Perhaps the timeline at Interlachen, where both Watson and Ross did work, could shed some light on this history?

JNC
It is extremely unlikely Ross was anywhere near Minneapolis in 1910; I doubt anyone in the Twin Cities had ever heard of Donald Ross in 1910.

Watson designed Interlachen in 1910-11; Ross redesigned the course in 1921.

[Mike Sweeney]

JNC
It is extremely unlikely Ross was anywhere near Minneapolis in 1910; I doubt anyone in the Twin Cities had ever heard of Donald Ross in 1910.

From Links article, "White Bear’s official history includes the diary entry of a member recounting a 1910 meeting at which Ross (but not Watson or Vardon) discussed plans for the front nine. Further supporting Ross as the designer is the biography Discovering Donald Ross, which places him at the club in 1912 and 1915. The front opened in 1912 and the back in 1916."

Tom?

[Scott Warren]

From the club's website:

The Donald Ross designed golf course is one of the most interesting in the State. Renowned golf course architect Tom Doak, an expert on classic golf design, said that it has some of the best Donald Ross holes he had ever seen. Not a small statement as Ross is credited with either full or partial design of 22 courses in the most recent listing of the “Top 100 Classical Golf Courses.”

[Jason Topp]

Minneapolis is also not listed in the article posted by MacWood.  Yet - Ross made significant changes to a Park design.  I have seen the details elsewhere but this is the overview from the website


"The story of the Minneapolis Golf Club begins in 1916, when our founders—five members of the Minneapolis Athletic Club—set out to establish a golf club that would foster friendship, sportsmanship, and the love of the game. Members were sought, land was acquired, and nine holes were built on what is now the site of the Golden Valley Country Club. On the first Saturday of August, 1916, play commenced at the MGC.

Later that year, our members voted to relocate the club to a larger piece of land in St. Louis Park. The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917.

By 1919, the club had grown to 400 members, and plans for a larger clubhouse were in the works. To accommodate the new clubhouse, the course would need to be re-routed. For this purpose, our members hired another Scotsman, Donald Ross, one of the most respected golf course designers of the 20th century."



Whether one calls it Minneapolis a Ross course or not is a matter of judgement.  I suspect the same analysis applies to White Bear Yacht Club but I do not even know the facts. 

[Tom MacWood]

JNC
It is extremely unlikely Ross was anywhere near Minneapolis in 1910; I doubt anyone in the Twin Cities had ever heard of Donald Ross in 1910.

From Links article, "White Bear’s official history includes the diary entry of a member recounting a 1910 meeting at which Ross (but not Watson or Vardon) discussed plans for the front nine. Further supporting Ross as the designer is the biography Discovering Donald Ross, which places him at the club in 1912 and 1915. The front opened in 1912 and the back in 1916."

Tom?

That is what I was referring to....the story makes no sense on a number of levels. Ross dabbled in golf design prior to 1911, but only around Pinehurst and a relatively small radious around Boston (Oakley GC). The one exception was a day trip he made to Chevy Chase (where his friend George Sargent was the pro) while traveling from Pinehurst (winter job) to Oakley (summer job). Ross was not a nationally known name in golf architecture in 1910.

Ross spent three months of 1910 overseas for the purpose of studying golf architecture, and starting in 1911 began dedicating himself to architecture, but even then rarely traveled west. There is no record of him being any where within 1000 miles of St. Paul in 1910, and the club has no record of him ever being on site.

IMO the diary story is bogus.

[Tom MacWood]

Minneapolis is also not listed in the article posted by MacWood.  Yet - Ross made significant changes to a Park design.  I have seen the details elsewhere but this is the overview from the website


"The story of the Minneapolis Golf Club begins in 1916, when our founders—five members of the Minneapolis Athletic Club—set out to establish a golf club that would foster friendship, sportsmanship, and the love of the game. Members were sought, land was acquired, and nine holes were built on what is now the site of the Golden Valley Country Club. On the first Saturday of August, 1916, play commenced at the MGC.

Later that year, our members voted to relocate the club to a larger piece of land in St. Louis Park. The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917.

By 1919, the club had grown to 400 members, and plans for a larger clubhouse were in the works. To accommodate the new clubhouse, the course would need to be re-routed. For this purpose, our members hired another Scotsman, Donald Ross, one of the most respected golf course designers of the 20th century."



Whether one calls it Minneapolis a Ross course or not is a matter of judgement.  I suspect the same analysis applies to White Bear Yacht Club but I do not even know the facts. Do you what exactly Ross did at Minneapolis?

Jason
That story is wrong too. Park was approached by Minneapolis but for whatever reason he did not design their course (by the way Park had his own pamplet and did not list Minneapolis). It was designed Tom Bendelow.

What exactly did Ross do at MCC? Whatever he did I seriously doubt he did anything 'significant.' There are plenty of minor redesigns he did not list in his pamphlet; understandably he only listed original designs and major redesigns.

[Jason Topp]

Minneapolis is also not listed in the article posted by MacWood.  Yet - Ross made significant changes to a Park design.  I have seen the details elsewhere but this is the overview from the website


"The story of the Minneapolis Golf Club begins in 1916, when our founders—five members of the Minneapolis Athletic Club—set out to establish a golf club that would foster friendship, sportsmanship, and the love of the game. Members were sought, land was acquired, and nine holes were built on what is now the site of the Golden Valley Country Club. On the first Saturday of August, 1916, play commenced at the MGC.

Later that year, our members voted to relocate the club to a larger piece of land in St. Louis Park. The Scottish golfer and golf course architect Willie Park Jr. was hired to lay out the new course, and an existing four-room farmhouse was converted to a clubhouse. The club's first event at its new location, a match play versus bogey, was held on May 19, 1917.

By 1919, the club had grown to 400 members, and plans for a larger clubhouse were in the works. To accommodate the new clubhouse, the course would need to be re-routed. For this purpose, our members hired another Scotsman, Donald Ross, one of the most respected golf course designers of the 20th century."



Whether one calls it Minneapolis a Ross course or not is a matter of judgement.  I suspect the same analysis applies to White Bear Yacht Club but I do not even know the facts. Do you what exactly Ross did at Minneapolis?

Jason
That story is wrong too. Park was approached by Minneapolis but for whatever reason he did not design their course (by the way Park had his own pamplet and did not list Minneapolis). It was designed Tom Bendelow.

What exactly did Ross do at MCC? Whatever he did I seriously doubt he did anything 'significant.' There are plenty of minor redesigns he did not list in his pamphlet; understandably he only listed original designs and major redesigns.

Tom:

I have seen descriptions beyond the club website but I am not sure where.   

My quote was from the club website.  Although such sites are not ialways accurate sources of information, I know they did a ton of historical research in connection with renovation/restoration work that was recently completed and it is fair to assume this description derives from those efforts.  You are accusing them of fabricating their history.  I would expect that you have impeccable information to back up such an assertion.

By the way, here is what the Ross Society says about White Bear Yacht Club:

"Records do not prove that Ross ever actually visited the site, and it might be argued that he did his work from topographical maps in both 1912 when he designed the first nine holes and in 1915 when he did the back nine, however, the work speaks for itself and it is hard to believe he didn’t walk this land. Tom Doak whose Renaissance Golf would undertake a restoration here more than ten years ago, has said that this course has some of the best Donald Ross holes he has ever seen.

False fronts abound, and not even the first hole is a gentle handshake. As always, the short par fours are the best holes on the golf course, and the one-shot holes all remind us of Royal Dornoch where the most difficult shot is the second into a par 3."

 http://www.donaldross.org/Lake_Country

[Tom MacWood]

Tom:

I have seen descriptions beyond the club website but I am not sure where.  

My quote was from the club website.  Although such sites are not ialways accurate sources of information, I know they did a ton of historical research in connection with renovation/restoration work that was recently completed and it is fair to assume this description derives from those efforts.  You are accusing them of fabricating their history.  I would expect that you have impeccable information to back up such an assertion.

By the way, here is what the Ross Society says about White Bear Yacht Club:

"Records do not prove that Ross ever actually visited the site, and it might be argued that he did his work from topographical maps in both 1912 when he designed the first nine holes and in 1915 when he did the back nine, however, the work speaks for itself and it is hard to believe he didn’t walk this land. Tom Doak whose Renaissance Golf would undertake a restoration here more than ten years ago, has said that this course has some of the best Donald Ross holes he has ever seen.

False fronts abound, and not even the first hole is a gentle handshake. As always, the short par fours are the best holes on the golf course, and the one-shot holes all remind us of Royal Dornoch where the most difficult shot is the second into a par 3."

 http://www.donaldross.org/Lake_Country

Jason
I'm accusing them of fabricating information? Where did I say that? I'm saying the info about Park is wrong.

Regarding WBYC, I think your first clue should have been 'records do not prove that Ross ever actually visited the site.' Are you aware of any golf courses Ross laid out remotely using topo maps in 1915 or earlier?

This is not a big mystery. The article from 1925 clearly states Watson laid out the course and the club's only surviving document (after the fire) says the same thing. There are no Ross plans and Ross never took credit for the course. What is so difficult to understand?

Its been said the par-3 3rd at WBYC is very similar to the 6th at Dornoch, further proof of a Ross involvement. The problem with that theory the 6th at Dornoch was created after WWII and Ross never saw the hole.

[Jason Topp]

"Jason
I'm accusing them of fabricating information? Where did I say that? I'm saying the info about Park is wrong."

Maybe I am overstating it, but if the information is wrong and the website was written either (a) without sufficient information to support its assertions or (b) despite a contrary historical record than I can't see how it could be anything other than a fabrication.  I suppose it could be a typo or incompetence.

 

[RJ_Daley]

Sometimes I think our GCA.com historical buffs get lost in the weeds of time and the then quality of "community news" items the find that they believe supports their theories.   

While I can only speculate, I just wonder if many of these stories written about new or remodelled golf courses that were in fact merely new facilites in a just burgeoning game of golf in that 1910-20 period, weren't completely error ridden.  Let's face it, the common readers of those stories in those days, 'barely knew" what the heck golf was, nor any of the lore or history of it coming over from the 'old sod'.  Possibly the news story writers didn't know or give a darn whether some "Scotsman" brought in to design some upper class oddity that was a golf course in those days, was named Watson, Foulis, Bendelow, Ross, etc.  Maybe, they just plugged in a wrong name reported to them by some member of the club, who himself didn't really know who the 'Scotsman" was or equally didn't really give a darn.

Maybe, the only folks that get all worked up about these attributions are people that fancy themselves great historical researchers of golf course architecture.  Not that such is a bad thing to be.  But,  maybe these modern researchers want to be correct way more than the original club founders cared about these matters, and that is where all the misinformation or unable to really ever know the exact facts phenomena ocurrs.  They didn't care if they got it right in their stories in 1915, and many of you care too much now.

[Jay Flemma]

Amen, Brother William!  Testify!

[RJ_Daley]

BTW, thanks to Dan and Jay for offering us photos and accounts of the WBYC. 

My daughter's "significant other?  " has parents that live on the lake directly opposite the course, but don't really participate in the club.  Who knows, maybe I'll get to see it by those connections...    <--- sorry Dan, but I'm emoticon dependent...

[Tom MacWood]

Sometimes I think our GCA.com historical buffs get lost in the weeds of time and the then quality of "community news" items the find that they believe supports their theories.   

While I can only speculate, I just wonder if many of these stories written about new or remodelled golf courses that were in fact merely new facilites in a just burgeoning game of golf in that 1910-20 period, weren't completely error ridden.  Let's face it, the common readers of those stories in those days, 'barely knew" what the heck golf was, nor any of the lore or history of it coming over from the 'old sod'.  Possibly the news story writers didn't know or give a darn whether some "Scotsman" brought in to design some upper class oddity that was a golf course in those days, was named Watson, Foulis, Bendelow, Ross, etc.  Maybe, they just plugged in a wrong name reported to them by some member of the club, who himself didn't really know who the 'Scotsman" was or equally didn't really give a darn.

Maybe, the only folks that get all worked up about these attributions are people that fancy themselves great historical researchers of golf course architecture.  Not that such is a bad thing to be.  But,  maybe these modern researchers want to be correct way more than the original club founders cared about these matters, and that is where all the misinformation or unable to really ever know the exact facts phenomena ocurrs.  They didn't care if they got it right in their stories in 1915, and many of you care too much now.

An interesting theory - especially useful to those who do not like the direction the new documents are taking them.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()