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Sean_A

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A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« on: August 27, 2009, 09:19:50 PM »
I am hoping to assemble a best of Michigan list and would like folks who either lived in Michigan or live in Michigan to help out.  In either case, it would be nice if you were around the state enough to get a decent sampling of courses.  I don't know how deep the list will go, but ideally, I would like to start with a nomination of 10 max per contributor (of course, anybody involved with the design, maintenance or membership of a club couldn't nominate it) then try to whittle down a number from there.  Once a solid core of whatever # (say 10-20) is established, then I would like folks to write a paragraph or two blurb about each course they really enjoy.  Hopefully we can then get a good mix of comments that helps explain why the course is a top one the state.  The idea is not necessarily to focus on the best courses if that isn't your bag, but more to highlight the variety Michigan has to offer.  Each individual can decide for themselves how best to go about that.  The nomination process wouldn't require any justification as that would come if the course makes the final list.  Of course, anybody involved with the design, maintenance or membership of a club couldn't nominate it.   

Anyway, if Michiganders are interested, please shoot me an email at sean.arble@gmail.com with your nominations (10 max), a bit about yourself and some of the courses you would be willing to write a blurb on. While I don't want you to nominate courses you are involved with in some way, I would still welcome your blurb on that course if it makes the final list. This is a longer term project so don't worry if you don't have loads of time right now.  I am hoping to get 10-20 respondents. 

Cheers

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 09:36:42 PM »
 8) does livin there 3-4 weeks a year in ne kalkaska county near wilderness valley and the black forest for the last 25 years qualify me?

p.s. i did grow up within 5 miles of mich and allways rooted for UM in late November..  the Tigers, Wings, and Lions,  so:

since I have played more than 10 in mich..

in alpha order:

Belvedere
Black Forest
Dunmaglas (#1 berry picking too)
Forest Dunes
Greywalls
Heather
High Pointe (please let it return)
Shanty Creek
TKC
The Mines
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 10:17:27 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JC Jones

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Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »
Sean,

I'll be glad to contribute.  Let me think on it for a bit.

Also,

Brian Cenci and Dave Neveux can probably provide you with recommendations from the widest sampling.  Those guys play EVERYTHING.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jason McNamara

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 10:22:15 PM »
... (of course, anybody involved with the design, maintenance or membership of a club couldn't nominate it)

As long as they disclose the affiliation, is it that big a deal-breaker?

Deucie Bies

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 11:06:31 PM »
Sean, I would like to participate, but let me think about it as well.  Unfortunately, a lot of my golf growing up was at Dearborn CC, a few other clubs in the area and the Ann Arbor area.  Haven't had much exposure to the north.

Peter Pratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 08:13:32 AM »
Sean,

I'm in. I've lived in Michigan my entire life and have played almost 200 courses here.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 08:26:59 AM »
8) does livin there 3-4 weeks a year in ne kalkaska county near wilderness valley and the black forest for the last 25 years qualify me?



Steve

I will leave it up individuals to decide if they are Michiganders or not.  Afterall, I haven't lived in the state for over half my adult life, so perhaps I am a questionable Michigander. 


Jason asked "As long as they disclose the affiliation, is it that big a deal-breaker?"

I would prefer folks don't nominate a course if they are connected to it in some way (member, employee, design work).  It keeps everything on a even keel.  Besides, if the course is really that good someone will nominate it and if it isn't, one vote won't go too far.  I spose if someone has playing rights to a course (alumni etc), but it isn't one they use as their club or local "muni" then that is ok, but even in this instance its a bit fishy and perhaps should be viewed with caution. 

Ciao
 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 08:33:13 AM »
Family still lives in Grand Rapids, dad and brother still work on a golf course, played high school golf all over, about 200 courses under my belt....I'm in.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Chris_Clouser

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 11:01:48 AM »
Does marrying a Michigander and having been in the state 20 plus times count?  But to be honest, the courses I have played will more than likely be covered by someone else as they are pretty much the ones everyone seems to play. 

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 12:26:03 PM »
Here is what I wrote to Sean:

I think you'll find near-universal acclaim for the first five, and widely-divergent nominees for the second five.
1.  Crystal Downs GC
2.  Oakland Hills CC (South)
3.  Franklin Hills CC
4.  Indianwood G & CC (Old)
5.  Arcadia Bluffs Golf Course
6.  University of Michigan Golf Course (disclosure -- I am a Victors Club member, which is scant "ownership")
7.  Country Club of Detroit (regulation)
8.  Detroit Golf Club (South)
9.  Lost Dunes Golf Club
10.  Forest Dunes Golf Club

*********

Hidden Gems and unknown treasures of Michigan: 
Marquette Golf Club (Greywalls)
Belvedere GC
Lakewood Shores Golf Resort (Gailes)
Otsego Club (Tribute)
Grosse Isle G & CC
Wuskowhan Players Club
Wawashkamo Golf Club


Others, that are really good (but not top ten) and not at all unknown or "hidden":
Kingsley Club
Pointe O'Woods GC
Blythefield CC
Birmingham CC, Plum Hollow CC and Bloomfield Hills CC (beautifully maintained, pleasant, architecturally unchallengeing)
Wyndgate Club

Now, I want to see Mr. Doak's List...

Chris_Clouser

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 12:38:26 PM »
Chuck,

Having Kingsley outside of your top 5 alone is bad enough, but not even in your top 10 is sacreligious on GCA.  You just might get your membership revoked and have angry hordes coming to raid your home tonight.   ;D


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 12:41:44 PM »
Chuck, you are my MAN!!!

I learned to play golf on the UM golf course while I was there for undergrad. Too bad, that is pretty much the only golf course I played in Michigan.

Go Blue!!! (Chuck, are you excited about the football season? I am about to bounce off the wall!)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 12:45:52 PM »
Chuck:

I would not know how to begin to rate the top courses in the state of Michigan (or any state, for that matter).

I can see how it's done on a national or international list, but once you go down to the state level you are comparing a lot of golf courses which would receive 6's on the Doak scale.  I could not assign a 6.1 to one course and a 6.3 to another, and I honestly don't see how anyone else could, either ... at that level it is all a matter of personal preference (if it isn't just that for the bigger lists, too).

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 12:54:20 PM »
Chuck:

I would not know how to begin to rate the top courses in the state of Michigan (or any state, for that matter).

I can see how it's done on a national or international list, but once you go down to the state level you are comparing a lot of golf courses which would receive 6's on the Doak scale.  I could not assign a 6.1 to one course and a 6.3 to another, and I honestly don't see how anyone else could, either ... at that level it is all a matter of personal preference (if it isn't just that for the bigger lists, too).

 ;D You'd be the outlier, anyway, since our state's only 'Doak 10' couldn't be on your list under Mr. Arble's Rules....  Actually, I don't like the "rating" part, but I do like the "listing" part -- what I like about Lists, are the surprises, and the names at the bottom; the non-obvious ones that make me think.  The hidden gems and the otherwise-unknowns.  That was a very big part (one of many things) that I liked about The Confidential Guide.  This whole exercise will, to me personally, be a success if I learn of one or two golf courses that make me say; "Hey, I have got to try to get there before the end of October..."

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 05:41:42 PM »
Here is what I wrote to Sean:

I think you'll find near-universal acclaim for the first five, and widely-divergent nominees for the second five.
1.  Crystal Downs GC
2.  Oakland Hills CC (South)
3.  Franklin Hills CC
4.  Indianwood G & CC (Old)
5.  Arcadia Bluffs Golf Course
6.  University of Michigan Golf Course (disclosure -- I am a Victors Club member, which is scant "ownership")
7.  Country Club of Detroit (regulation)
8.  Detroit Golf Club (South)
9.  Lost Dunes Golf Club
10.  Forest Dunes Golf Club

*********

Hidden Gems and unknown treasures of Michigan:  
Marquette Golf Club (Greywalls)
Belvedere GC
Lakewood Shores Golf Resort (Gailes)
Otsego Club (Tribute)
Grosse Isle G & CC
Wuskowhan Players Club
Wawashkamo Golf Club


Others, that are really good (but not top ten) and not at all unknown or "hidden":
Kingsley Club
Pointe O'Woods GC
Blythefield CC
Birmingham CC, Plum Hollow CC and Bloomfield Hills CC (beautifully maintained, pleasant, architecturally unchallengeing)
Wyndgate Club

Now, I want to see Mr. Doak's List...

Here comes the first non-top 10 for Kingsley bashing.....

Chuck, seriously!?  KC not even in your top 10?  Really surprised it didn't knock one of the last 6 out...You could also make an argument for Greywalls being in that top 10 as well!

anyhow, to each their own I guess.  Sean, I'll e-mail you my list this weekend.  Fun idea. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 05:43:59 PM by George Freeman »
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 06:18:15 PM »
I'll say this, in my defense which seems to need quite a lot of defending, and for Kingsley Club whcih doesn't need me to defend it... ;)

I really, really like the Kingsley Club.  Kingsley would be 11th on my list. 
It is not on my top five, easily. 
It is not easily excluded from my second five.  And that's where the fun begins.  To those who'd list KC ahead of Arcadia Bluffs, I'd say to them, "It's not a fair fight.  Kingsley was built on a nice, ordinary parcel.  Arcadia was built on one of the most spectacular parcels available in Michigan in a quarter-century.  Nothing against Kingsley."
The other second-five of mine are based largely on archtectural merit/provenance, and enjoyable playability.  If you gave me 10 rounds at Forest Dunes and Kingsley, it would be 6-4 for Forest Dunes, just because I like playing there that wee bit more.

I know there are many here who discount CCD; I just happen to think it is a great parkland golf course.  My choice of DGC South (that's the Par-68 short course at DGC -- the baby-brother of the North Course!) is one I thought I'd catch some flack for choosing.  But I think a lot of people understand that is a very nicely preserved little Ross gem that can and will no doubt be polished even more with careful restorative work.

I also happen to think (maybe its architect will know better than me; I expect he will) that the Kingsley Club will benefit greatly with maturation over the next ten years.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I were forced to include it in a future list.  It is not the most generous turf-growing season up there in Traverse City.  I kind of wonder what Crystal Downs looked like in its third summer of operation.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 06:34:43 PM »
I'll say this, in my defense which seems to need quite a lot of defending, and for Kingsley Club whcih doesn't need me to defend it... ;)

I really, really like the Kingsley Club.  Kingsley would be 11th on my list. 
It is not on my top five, easily. 
It is not easily excluded from my second five.  And that's where the fun begins.  To those who'd list KC ahead of Arcadia Bluffs, I'd say to them, "It's not a fair fight.  Kingsley was built on a nice, ordinary parcel.  Arcadia was built on one of the most spectacular parcels available in Michigan in a quarter-century.  Nothing against Kingsley."
The other second-five of mine are based largely on archtectural merit/provenance, and enjoyable playability.  If you gave me 10 rounds at Forest Dunes and Kingsley, it would be 6-4 for Forest Dunes, just because I like playing there that wee bit more.

I know there are many here who discount CCD; I just happen to think it is a great parkland golf course.  My choice of DGC South (that's the Par-68 short course at DGC -- the baby-brother of the North Course!) is one I thought I'd catch some flack for choosing.  But I think a lot of people understand that is a very nicely preserved little Ross gem that can and will no doubt be polished even more with careful restorative work.

I also happen to think (maybe its architect will know better than me; I expect he will) that the Kingsley Club will benefit greatly with maturation over the next ten years.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I were forced to include it in a future list.  It is not the most generous turf-growing season up there in Traverse City.  I kind of wonder what Crystal Downs looked like in its third summer of operation.

Yes Chuck, your second five is an interesting selection, but I think a good and defendable group. This is the sort of stuff I am looking for as I too enjoy the offbeat selections which get me thinking.  A few others have thrown some curve balls with a course or two.  Though I think your Victors Club membership seriously clouds your inclusion of Michigan.  Have no fear though because I would nominate UofM and I am far too cheap for a Victors Club membership.

Tom D

I hope you will contribute. How hard can it be to pick a handful of courses you really like in Michigan?  Don't be so hard on yerself - tee hee.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andy Troeger

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 07:20:56 PM »
Chuck,
I think your list proves there will never be any list consensus. I could post my list and people would complain that Tullymore is too high although I would be very safe with Kingsley at #2 behind that Crystal Downs place! I can comfortably say that Lost Dunes and Point O'Woods would be top 10 in the state for me, but I'm not sure I've played enough beyond that grouping to go much deeper.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 08:00:20 PM »
Chuck,
I think your list proves there will never be any list consensus. I could post my list and people would complain that Tullymore is too high although I would be very safe with Kingsley at #2 behind that Crystal Downs place! I can comfortably say that Lost Dunes and Point O'Woods would be top 10 in the state for me, but I'm not sure I've played enough beyond that grouping to go much deeper.
Oh I've played Tullymore, and I don't see it at all.  It's not making any of my lists.  It pained me, however, to leave Kingsley and Point O' Woods off...

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 08:48:45 PM »
only because it's Michigan....
Crystal Downs
Dunes Club
Franklin Hills (Prichard)
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
Kingsley Club
Black Forest
Barton Hills (Prichard)
University of Michigan
Lost Dunes
Treetops Signature (Smith)
Radrick
not crazy about Arcadia, Forest Dunes, Black Lake, True North...not my cup of tea

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2009, 02:03:13 AM »
I question limiting members from nominating their own course.
If you where doing a list of NJ how could you possibly expect people not to nominate Pine Valley if they are a member. There are of course similar examples here in Michigan.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2009, 05:22:25 AM »
Sean,

I can't give you a top ten, but I'll e-mail you my comments on the places I have played since I moved here last summer.




Andy Troeger

Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2009, 09:18:23 AM »
Chuck,
I think your list proves there will never be any list consensus. I could post my list and people would complain that Tullymore is too high although I would be very safe with Kingsley at #2 behind that Crystal Downs place! I can comfortably say that Lost Dunes and Point O'Woods would be top 10 in the state for me, but I'm not sure I've played enough beyond that grouping to go much deeper.
Oh I've played Tullymore, and I don't see it at all.  It's not making any of my lists.  It pained me, however, to leave Kingsley and Point O' Woods off...

Chuck,
Nothing wrong with differing opinions--you obviously prefer classic age courses given that 7 of your top 8 are classics. Tullymore is about as different from those types of courses as you can get so I think your comments make sense.

Sean,
You either trust your "panel" to rate or rank properly or you don't. You can take out ratings with affiliations, but that doesn't stop someone from coming up with a funky list to mix up results. If you take out anyone with an affiliation with UM where does that leave you? (MSU fans!)

Members are often times the MOST critical of certain issues with their course because they know it better, flaws and all. Their views would be much more valuable to me than someone who plays the course once or twice.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 10:48:55 AM »
I'll say this, in my defense which seems to need quite a lot of defending, and for Kingsley Club whcih doesn't need me to defend it... ;)

I really, really like the Kingsley Club.  Kingsley would be 11th on my list. 
It is not on my top five, easily. 
It is not easily excluded from my second five.  And that's where the fun begins.  To those who'd list KC ahead of Arcadia Bluffs, I'd say to them, "It's not a fair fight.  Kingsley was built on a nice, ordinary parcel.  Arcadia was built on one of the most spectacular parcels available in Michigan in a quarter-century.  Nothing against Kingsley."
The other second-five of mine are based largely on archtectural merit/provenance, and enjoyable playability.  If you gave me 10 rounds at Forest Dunes and Kingsley, it would be 6-4 for Forest Dunes, just because I like playing there that wee bit more.

I know there are many here who discount CCD; I just happen to think it is a great parkland golf course.  My choice of DGC South (that's the Par-68 short course at DGC -- the baby-brother of the North Course!) is one I thought I'd catch some flack for choosing.  But I think a lot of people understand that is a very nicely preserved little Ross gem that can and will no doubt be polished even more with careful restorative work.

I also happen to think (maybe its architect will know better than me; I expect he will) that the Kingsley Club will benefit greatly with maturation over the next ten years.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I were forced to include it in a future list.  It is not the most generous turf-growing season up there in Traverse City.  I kind of wonder what Crystal Downs looked like in its third summer of operation.

Chuck I don't think you need to "defend" your opinion, but I do think it would be an interesting study to contrast our opinions of Kingley.   Depending upon the day of the week, I have Kingsley placed somewhere between the 3rd and 6th best course I've played - in the country!  To be completely fair, I haven't played most of the Michigan ones on your list, but I think it is safe to ay that based on the course I've played elsewhere that I wouldn't find 10, or even 2 or 3, courses in Michigan that I prefer to Kingsley.

The two things that surprise me most in your comments -
1) "Kingsley was built on a nice, ordinary parcel" - I'm not sure we have the ame definition of ordinary.  Not on Lake Michigan, but the land spectacular good for golf in my opinion.
2) You comment about the course maturing - while I'm sure it will mature nicely over the years if tended properly, implying that the turf needs improvement over time leaves me wondering when you played.  I played lat September, and the turf conditions were more ideal for golf than Crystal Down at that time.  Crystal Downs was maintained "prettier" the weekend we played it and the green were running faster (though Kingsley was plenty fat) but the Kingsley turf was firm and fast and beautiful whereas many of the approach areas at the Downs didn't present the same bump and run options because the ball just didn't fly when landing short of the green.

I don't think I'm right and you are wrong or vice versa, but I think we clearly prefer different things.  That's the beauty of this site.  Please don't take my comments as an "attack" on your opinion, but we sure our WAY off in our views.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Call To Michiganders Past And Present
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 11:56:24 AM »
I'll say this, in my defense which seems to need quite a lot of defending, and for Kingsley Club whcih doesn't need me to defend it... ;)

I really, really like the Kingsley Club.  Kingsley would be 11th on my list.  
It is not on my top five, easily.  
It is not easily excluded from my second five.  And that's where the fun begins.  To those who'd list KC ahead of Arcadia Bluffs, I'd say to them, "It's not a fair fight.  Kingsley was built on a nice, ordinary parcel.  Arcadia was built on one of the most spectacular parcels available in Michigan in a quarter-century.  Nothing against Kingsley."
The other second-five of mine are based largely on archtectural merit/provenance, and enjoyable playability.  If you gave me 10 rounds at Forest Dunes and Kingsley, it would be 6-4 for Forest Dunes, just because I like playing there that wee bit more.

I know there are many here who discount CCD; I just happen to think it is a great parkland golf course.  My choice of DGC South (that's the Par-68 short course at DGC -- the baby-brother of the North Course!) is one I thought I'd catch some flack for choosing.  But I think a lot of people understand that is a very nicely preserved little Ross gem that can and will no doubt be polished even more with careful restorative work.

I also happen to think (maybe its architect will know better than me; I expect he will) that the Kingsley Club will benefit greatly with maturation over the next ten years.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I were forced to include it in a future list.  It is not the most generous turf-growing season up there in Traverse City.  I kind of wonder what Crystal Downs looked like in its third summer of operation.

As Tim said, the differing of opinions is what makes this site great, and reading responses like Chuck's and seeing how different they are from your own is fun/interesting/enlightening/baffling/etc etc.  Like I said before, to each their own, and this is in no way an attack on Chuck, just a differing opinion:

- I would agree w/ Tim that our criteria for a great parcel of land for golf must be quite different.  Yes, Arcadia is a SPECTACULAR piece of property, and it is hard to think of a better spot to spend a late summer sunset than on that porch, but from purely a golfing standpoint the interest in the land at Kingsley's location is infinitely more interesting than Arcadia's.  Remember, most of the what exists at Arcadia is man-made (but even though it clearly shows, I think they did a good job).  It is true that KC doesn't have any lake views or tee boxes perched 200 ft above the water, but the endlessly varied humps, bumps and movement at KC make it a much more fun, strategic and dare I say "pure" golf experience (IMO of course).  It's impossible to create that interest...nobody can compete with mother nature.  It is more than a fair fight.

- If you're holding KC back due to playing conditions, you must not have visited in quite some time (or simply put a premium on lush, green, soft playing conditions).  The playing conditions at the Kingsley Club are without a doubt some of the (if not the) best playing conditions I have ever seen/experienced.  Firm and fast perfection, thanks to Dan Lucas and his staff.

My list is coming up.

Cheers!
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

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