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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2009, 05:59:36 PM »
Jeff,

If you or any other architect had a dozen really good courses in a rather limited area, don't you feel that those same courses would get more recognition if they were spread to diverse locations ?

Mike Sweeney,

Are you inviting me to those club's Fall Member-Guests ?


Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2009, 07:04:18 PM »

Mike Sweeney,

Are you inviting me to those club's Fall Member-Guests ?


Pat,

Some of us choose to attend school in Boston, Massachusetts and some of choose to attend school in South Bend, Indiana!  :-*

As our friend Tom Paul says, "It's a Big World Out There."

Let us know how the Blackthorn Member Guest works out this year!



http://www.blackthorngolf.com
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 07:08:57 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2009, 08:56:27 PM »
Tom have you ever simply ASKED any of those involved those questions in a civil and non-judgmental manner. I CAN'T RECALL that ever happening.

Again, you cite two examples of which you really don't know any of the background on and make the accusation that no one has done anything to preserve or restore Tilly's work. In this you are absolutely wrong.

Yes, I both defended, supported and liked the work that Rees Did. I also have been critical of work that WASN'T DONE to restore the greens to their original dimensions. That wasn't Rees' or the USGA fault but the fault of a limited budget. Since 2002 several greens have been expanded and more are going to be in the future, and frankly speaking, this is happening because of MY WORK in researching the course and finding the tangible proof that wouild allow for this to happen.

That having been said, I also have approved of the FEW, and there were not as many as you believe, changes to the course. Tilly himself believed in changes to his own designs when necessary to either make the hole better or to keep up with technological changes. The most important aspect to any change is to m,ake certain that it reflects what the architect, in this case Tilly, had planned as challenges in the design.

In my coming Volume II which I know you are waiting on with baited breath, I will be including a section on the evolution of ALL the courses at Bethpage. I'm certain you'll find it most enlightening!

Non judgmental? What the hell does that mean? This site is a forum for people to express their opinions and judgments. For someone who has admired Tilly's architecture I'm disappointed by the lack of advocacy for his original work. Bethpage just hosted the US Open, what better time to examine and celebrate his original work and express judgements regarding all the changes? To my knowledge no one associated with the Tilly association did so...they were too focused on Burbeck.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2009, 09:41:42 PM »
Tom,

For someone who keeps using the phrases such as "To my knowledge" you absolutely make no effort to get any knowledge on the subject!

Just go back a few posts and look at what Jason Topp wrote, "Tom - take a look at Phillip's extensive discussion of his input and thought process associated with the Bethpage restoration in the terrific thread he did before the US Open.  You might not agree with his thought process but I cannot imagine someone being more involved in that project..."

Again, you stated, "I'm disappointed by the lack of advocacy for his original work. Bethpage just hosted the US Open, what better time to examine and celebrate his original work and express judgements regarding all the changes? To my knowledge no one associated with the Tilly association did so...they were too focused on Burbeck."

You are simply wrong. There were comments from a number of Association members given to the USGA, Rees Jones, Dave Catalano & Craig Currier. I can personally speak to this as I was very involved beginning back on the day after the 2002 Open ended. I was physically at Bethpage and involved when discussions with all parties took place involving much of the few changes and tweakings that occurred as well as the recovery of the putting surfaces that took place. In addition to direct interactions such as that, several of us gave numerous interviews about the course, the work done to the course and yes... Burbeck.

The problem always boils down to your making statements of this type declaring our failures when you don't even have the beginnings of knowledge of what we have done and said. Feel very free to disagree with WHAT we have done... To say that we have done nothing and have "disappointed by the lack of advocacy for his original work" shows a callous and gross disregard for what we have done.

Your comment began with "Non judgmental? What the hell does that mean?" NON-JUDGMENTAL means being well-informed, something that even one who is blind can clearly see that on this subject you are not. Tom, you owe the Association an apology and you owe it to yourself to ask us questions BEFORE you judge us incorrectly in a public setting. By the way, that is what I also meant when I said "Tom have you ever simply ASKED any of those involved those questions in a civil and non-judgmental manner. I CAN'T RECALL that ever happening..."

« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 11:58:26 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2009, 12:10:13 PM »
Phil
I missed the thread about the Black that Jason was referring to. I believe this is it:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40072.0/

I read through it and it would have been a perfect opportunity for you to contrast Tilly's original design with current very different version, but for whatever reason you did not. The only changes to the bunkering you acknowledged were at #8, #14 and maybe #18. IMO the highlight of the thread was when Joe B. visually compared and contrasted the greenside bunkering - old and new (he made one slight error contrasting the current 1st green with an old picture of the Green Course's 1st), and you made no comment at all. Its too bad he did not go further and contrast the entire holes, we would have seen even further differences. Your loyalty to the reputation of Bethpage-Black clearly outweighs your loyalty to Tilly's original design. You have shown that over and over again over the years. Why do you spend so much time on the Burbeck controversy and virtually no time on publicizing the changes to Tilly's original design?

You have an entire chapter in your book devoted to Bethpage-Black. This short bit is what you wrote about the changes (again, you devoted much more to Burbeck):

"If Joseph Burbeck deserves his due credit, Rees Jones should receive this and more praise as well for bringing the magic back to a course that went so many years without proper care. His 1997 work restored every bunker save one (the huge fairway bunker on the 7th hole), bringing them back to their former glory and ferocity and tucking them back into the greens as Tilly favored. Jones believes he had a mission and responsibility to finish the course for Tillinghast so that it would challenge the great players of today and continue to so far into the future.

He rebuilt tees, adding new ones on many holes to provide needed additional length, while preserving the oblique lines of risk and reward play that is integral to Tilly's original design. He restored a number of greens to their former size, an example of this bering the 8th hole, where mowing patterns had eliminated the back right tee proportion of the green. These recovered areas provided some of the most exacting and exciting hole locations during the 2002 Open.

Jones brought life back unto the 18th hole, providing it were renewed challenge by adding more than 50 yards in length with a new tee. In addition to this, the fairway bunker complexes were completely rebuilt and the green reduced in size, while new bunkers were built in the 'Tillinghast Style' to create a fabulous finishing hole that will be the site of many stirring, heroic endings to championships in the years to come.

Yes, Tilly would most definitely have also thanked Rees Jones for restoring his design and 'finishing' his work."

There are so many disturbing aspects to this I'm not sure where to begin.

1. To say only one bunker was not restored is a gross mischaracterization. There were many bunkers that were not restored and/or completely altered by Rees.

2. Tucking them back into greens as Tilly favored? Many of the greenside bunkers Rees created are an abomination and bear little resemblance to the original Tilly bunkers.

3. Jones believes he had a mission and responsibility to finish the course? You are telling us the course was not finished? I suppose this is your way for rationalizing all the changes you fail to acknowledge.

4. Jones brought life back to the 18th? I realize the old 18th was always somewhat of a let down but at least it was harmony with the rest of the course. The current 18th is out of character and poorly conceived.

5. The new bunkers are built in the 'Tillinghast Style'? Tillinghast Style? Tilly must have been spinning in his graves when you wrote that line. That is insulting to Tilly, his architecture and those of us who appreciate both. You should have Tilly Association membership revoked.

6. Tilly would have thanked Rees for restoring and finishing his work? Thanked? Is there architect living today who has altered more Tilly courses than Rees? Who needs enemies when you have friends like Rees? Didn't you describe an incident when Tilly was drunk and banishing a revolver? That is the kind of thank you I believe Tilly would given him. And please explain what you mean by restore and finish? In my mind it is either or, you either restore a course or you redesign it....and then say you are finishing it as the original architect would have had he been alive.

By the way I did ask Rick Wolffe of the Tillinghast Association the question of why they did not do more to promote the preservation and protection of Tilly's work.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1462.msg28685/
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 12:13:12 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2009, 02:10:59 PM »
Tom,

After this I would appreciate it if you would move this discussion the "Ask the Tillinghast Association Questions" thread as it will enable this discussion to remain on topic.

You wrote, "Phil
I missed the thread about the Black that Jason was referring to. I believe this is it:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40072.0/

I read through it and it would have been a perfect opportunity for you to contrast Tilly's original design with current very different version, but for whatever reason you did not. {Because it is only a VERY DIFFERENT VERSION IN YOUR MIND}

The only changes to the bunkering you acknowledged were at #8, #14 and maybe #18. {Incorrect! I commented quite clearly on bunker additions to other holes such as 9 & 13. I didn't comment on any changes to the bunkers on 18 as there were no changes since 2002.}

Why do you spend so much time on the Burbeck controversy and virtually no time on publicizing the changes to Tilly's original design? {I spend time on the "Burbeck Controversy" because it is FLAGRANTLY INCORRECT and is affecting the future's view of the history of the course and Tilly's involvement there. In addition, I am being asked about it all the time. For example, I did more than 25 interviews on the subject prior to the Open by media members who contacted me. I have written a great deal about the work done on Bethpage Black in numerous golf journals and other publications both in print and on-line. You just haven't read them.}

You have an entire chapter in your book devoted to Bethpage-Black. This short bit is what you wrote about the changes (again, you devoted much more to Burbeck):

{To conserve space I cut out the paragraphs you quoted from my book. First of all it is quite obvious that you are trying to boil down the theme of 12 pages into 4 paragraphs and are doing so quite incorrectly. The chapter you are referring to is titled "Of Bethpage and the Black Leopard" and it is from my biography, Tillinghast: Creator of Golf Courses. It is NOT a discussion of the Black Course, but rather a condensed version of the history of the project with a bit of information added about the actual role played by Joseph Burbeck and Rees Jones. Now if you would like to read a chapter from ANOTHER BOOK I wrote, Golf's Finest Hour: The Open at Bethpage Black, there is a 12-page chapter in that titled, "What Hath Rees Wrought" that goes into some detail about the work that he did in restoring the course prior to the 2002 Open. There are a number of other articles where I have commented on and written about specific aspects of the work that Rees did that I am sure that you can find if so inclined. Finally, all that to once again tell you that you are wrong in your opinion of what I have written and even what some of it says.}

There are so many disturbing aspects to this I'm not sure where to begin.

1. To say only one bunker was not restored is a gross mischaracterization. There were many bunkers that were not restored and/or completely altered by Rees. {No it isn't. FACT - EVERY BUNKER EXCEPT THE LARGE WASTE BUNKER ON #7 WAS COMPLETELY REBUILT!}

2. Tucking them back into greens as Tilly favored? Many of the greenside bunkers Rees created are an abomination and bear little resemblance to the original Tilly bunkers. {Yes Tom, Tilly tucked his bunkers into the green complexes and this IS WHAT REES DID! You are certainly entitled to your opinion on whether they are an abomination or not.}

3. Jones believes he had a mission and responsibility to finish the course? You are telling us the course was not finished? I suppose this is your way for rationalizing all the changes you fail to acknowledge. {Again Tom, you simply show a lack of understanding in what you read. All I did was QUOTE what REES STATED AND BELIEVES. I neither agreed nor disagreed with it. Thereby was DEFINITELY NO RATIONALIZATION on my part in anything that I wrote.}

4. Jones brought life back to the 18th? I realize the old 18th was always somewhat of a let down but at least it was harmony with the rest of the course. The current 18th is out of character and poorly conceived. {You are entitled to your opinion... as am I with mine}

5. The new bunkers are built in the 'Tillinghast Style'? Tillinghast Style? Tilly must have been spinning in his graves when you wrote that line. That is insulting to Tilly, his architecture and those of us who appreciate both. You should have Tilly Association membership revoked. {Tom, of all the things you have ever written that makes me smile the most! Revoke my membership... Well, why don't you write that to the Tillinghast Association and make the suggestion? The last thing they want is a loose cannon out there insulting Tilly and demeaning the Association. Of course you could just resign your own membership in protest... that is, if you are a member... are you?"

6. Tilly would have thanked Rees for restoring and finishing his work? Thanked? Is there architect living today who has altered more Tilly courses than Rees? Who needs enemies when you have friends like Rees? Didn't you describe an incident when Tilly was drunk and banishing a revolver? That is the kind of thank you I believe Tilly would given him. And please explain what you mean by restore and finish? In my mind it is either or, you either restore a course or you redesign it....and then say you are finishing it as the original architect would have had he been alive. {Read what I wrote again, this time with a mind that is opened by just a tiny crack and you might see it.}

By the way I did ask Rick Wolfe of the Tillinghast Association the question of why they did not do more to promote the preservation and protection of Tilly's work. {Thank you for that reference. Of course I was talking about how you hadn't asked Rick or the Tillinghast Association ANY QUESTION at all before the Open at Bethpage of which you are complaining so much about. By the way, as that example you gave was from 2003, SIX YEARS AGO, I don't think that quite counts...}


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2009, 11:30:38 PM »

1. To say only one bunker was not restored is a gross mischaracterization. There were many bunkers that were not restored and/or completely altered by Rees. {No it isn't. FACT - EVERY BUNKER EXCEPT THE LARGE WASTE BUNKER ON #7 WAS COMPLETELY REBUILT!}


Phil
What about the bunker in front of the 3rd green?
What about the 2 fairway bunkers left the glacier bunker at #4?
What about the bunker short of the 4th green?
What about the bunker right of the 8th green?
What about the 7 bunkers Tilly built between the 10th and 11th holes (there are five now)?
What about the bunker behind the 10th green?
What about the bunker in front of the 11th tee?
What about the 5 right hand fairway bunkers Tilly built on the 11th (there are three now)?
What about the 3 bunkers at the corner of the 12th dogleg?
What about the 3 bunkers guarding the 14th green?
What about the bunker behind the 18th green?

Not to mention all the other bunkers that have completely altered from their original appearance.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 11:32:31 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2009, 01:18:23 AM »
I think these course get their due. They ar ethe best of the best. And unlike Rees Atlantic they stack up well against anything near them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2009, 06:58:14 AM »
I think these course get their due. They ar ethe best of the best. And unlike Rees Atlantic they stack up well against anything near them.


Tiger,

When's the last time you played Atlantic ?

As to stacking up against anything near them, Sebonack, The Bridge, NGLA and Maidstone are on the water, the Sound or Ocean.
And, NGLA, Shinnecock and Maidstone are classic top 10-25-100.  How many courses can stack up to NGLA, Maidstone and Shinnecock ?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2009, 07:58:48 AM »
Atlantic is #16 on the Ward Metro 50, and I would pretty much agree

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34730.0/

Now we are getting closer to some REAL bias!

Andy Troeger

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2009, 09:00:54 AM »
How many of the Tillinghast courses mentioned are better than Baltimore CC East? That and Rock Hill CC in South Carolina are the only Tillinghast courses I've played so I'm curious as to the comparison. I would certainly argue that BCC is underrated.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2009, 09:11:27 AM »
Andy,

I would put BCC above all the ones listed by Pat that I have played including Somerset (but I may need to see that twice). Have not played Fenway, Quaker or the Baltusrols.

IMO, his most unique and interesting work is outside of NY, at BCC, San Francisco and depending on how much credit you give him at Newport, Newport CC. I think the Doak restoration at Shawnee has the potential to go on this list based on some of the wild holes that used to exist.

Lots will say WFW is better, but on a day to day basis, I prefer BCC.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 09:14:25 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2009, 12:15:16 PM »
Mike,

BCC's finishing holes were historically weak.

That fact, combined with the trend toward medal play, may have contributed to its being rated lower.

What surprises me about BCC is that it's so head and shoulders above anything locally or regionally.

Andy Troeger

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2009, 05:27:26 PM »
Patrick,
#18 at BCC isn't one of the stronger holes on the course, but the rest of the finishing stretch is pretty darn good (#14-17). Perhaps #17 was improved by some of the work done to clear things out--Jim or others could explain better what was done there.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2009, 08:21:17 PM »
Andy,

I believe that both # 17 and # 18 were worked on to make them better finishing holes.

My point to Mike Sweeney was that "historically" the course may have suffered in the ratings and in general appreciation due to that weak finish.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2009, 10:20:55 PM »

1. To say only one bunker was not restored is a gross mischaracterization. There were many bunkers that were not restored and/or completely altered by Rees. {No it isn't. FACT - EVERY BUNKER EXCEPT THE LARGE WASTE BUNKER ON #7 WAS COMPLETELY REBUILT!}


Phil
What about the bunker in front of the 3rd green?
What about the 2 fairway bunkers left the glacier bunker at #4?
What about the bunker short of the 4th green?
What about the bunker right of the 8th green?
What about the 7 bunkers Tilly built between the 10th and 11th holes (there are five now)?
What about the bunker behind the 10th green?
What about the bunker in front of the 11th tee?
What about the 5 right hand fairway bunkers Tilly built on the 11th (there are three now)?
What about the 3 bunkers at the corner of the 12th dogleg?
What about the 3 bunkers guarding the 14th green?
What about the bunker behind the 18th green?

Not to mention all the other bunkers that have been given Rees's stylistic stamp.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2009, 11:16:54 AM »
Tom & Phil,

To help clarify matters and establish a time line, WHEN was the Tillinghast Society created ?

Certainly, changes made prior to the formation of the Tillinghast Society can't be held against them.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2009, 04:26:38 PM »
Tom,

You once again show a complete lack of understanding opf what is written. I stated, as YOU even quoted me so well, "1. To say only one bunker was not restored is a gross mischaracterization. There were many bunkers that were not restored and/or completely altered by Rees. {No it isn't. FACT - EVERY BUNKER EXCEPT THE LARGE WASTE BUNKER ON #7 WAS COMPLETELY REBUILT!}

Tom EVERY BUNKER that was on the course prior to the 2002 Open was REBUILT! I NEVER STATED that every bunker that was on the course in the 1930's was RESTORED. I stated this in my books Golf for the People: Bethpage and the Black, Golf's Finest Hour:The Open at Bethpage Black and Tillinghast:Creator of Golf Courses. In fact in the first one there is a rather long interview transcribed verbatim in its entirety that goes into what Rees Did and what he DIDN'T do. It is here that his statement that he believes he finished Tilly's work that SO annoys you can first be found. In addition, I have also written this same thing in a number of magazine articles through the years.

Its time for you to actually begin paying attention to what you read.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2009, 04:30:26 PM »
I attempted and failed to stop the argument and apologize for doing so. I will therefor ONLY answer Tom's questions if he posts them on the Tillinghast Association thread which is where I have asked him to do so prior to this so that it doesn't impact on and take over this thread. This time it is my fault as I shouldn't have answered him and so i won't make that mistake again.

Pat, I am uncertain of the year but I believe it may have been in 1998. I didn't become a member until several years later. It was a few more years after that when I was asked to serve on the board.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
"If Joseph Burbeck deserves his due credit, Rees Jones should receive this and more praise as well for bringing the magic back to a course that went so many years without proper care. His 1997 work restored every bunker save one (the huge fairway bunker on the 7th hole), bringing them back to their former glory and ferocity and tucking them back into the greens as Tilly favored. Jones believes he had a mission and responsibility to finish the course for Tillinghast so that it would challenge the great players of today and continue to so far into the future."

Phil
Give us a break. This is the quote taken directly from your book. You claimed he restored every bunker save one.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2009, 07:38:38 PM »
Even though I just apologized for the ongoing argument with Tom and that I would not continue, his latest post demands a response simply because it is so preposterous in content and intent. I promise that with this response my part is done.

Tom.

I was referring to the bunkers that were there on the course at that time. Rees restored everyone of them except the large waste bunker in front of the 7th tee.

Give me a break that I used the word "restore" in a different sense than you demand. Insetad of TELLING me what I meant a simple question of "Did you mean..." would have cleared it up quickly. But no, evidently you would much rather be contentious. A number of times you have mentioned about things written many years ago that you wondered what the writer meant. Here you actually have the ability to address the writer and ask him a question as to exactly WHAT HE MEANT and you choose to not only TELL the writer WHAT HE MEANT but to then CORRECT HIM when he tells you that you are misunderstanding.

That you continue to argue and TELL ME WHAT I MEANT is ludicrous, laughable and insulting but most of all, simply stupid. You can say whatever drivel you'd like becvause I really am done with this...



« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:44:38 PM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2009, 07:52:30 PM »
Even though I just apologized for the ongoing argument with Tom and that I would not continue, his latest post demands a response simply because it is so preposterous in content and intent. I promise that with this response my part is done.

Tom.

I was referring to the bunkers that were there on the course at that time. Rees restored everyone of them except the large waste bunker in front of the 7th tee.

Give me a break that I used the word "restore" in a different sense than you demand. Insetad of TELLING me what I meant a simple question of "Did you mean..." would have cleared it up quickly. But no, evidently you would much rather be contentious. A number of times you have mentioned about things written many years ago that you wondered what the writer meant. Here you actually have the ability to address the writer and ask him a question as to exactly WHAT HE MEANT and you choose to not only TELL the writer WHAT HE MEANT but to then CORRECT HIM when he tells you that you are misunderstanding.

That you continue to argue and TELL ME WHAT I MEANT is ludicrous, laughable and insulting but most of all, simply stupid. You can say whatever drivel you'd like becvause I really am done with this...


Phil
Sure you did...everyone on this site (including you) knows the difference between restore and rebuild. You should be done.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2009, 10:15:26 PM »

Pat, I am uncertain of the year but I believe it may have been in 1998. I didn't become a member until several years later. It was a few more years after that when I was asked to serve on the board.


Phil,

There were numerous changes to Baltusrol lower prior to 1998.

I don't think that the TS should be held accountable for not objecting to those changes.

Tom MacWood,

In all fairness to Phil, the TS, and Baltusrol, without knowing who changed what features, it's hard to point any fingers.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the changes over the years were internal in genesis and construction.

My guess is that a good number of changes were done in the normal course of management, but, I'd agree with you, that the hosting of Major tournaments acted as a catalyst for changes and that those changes are more substantive than the changes in the normal course of management.

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