[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I have no time this week to get into a black-and-green debate with you on this topic, but I think you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my point of view on the subject, because my logic could not be "flawed".

I guess we disagree about what sort of feature would cause someone to quit the game (or threaten to).  You seem to think it would be offense over an "unfair" feature such as a bad bounce, if I understood you right.  I think the killer feature is too much water or long grass that results in lost balls and slow play ... and though Crane did not accept water as a proportional hazard, he did seem to champion the cause of "graduated" rough as at recent U.S. Opens, even though the average player could only hit a wedge back to the fairway out of the second or third cut of rough.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Question for you guys... What do you think about the Tillinghast concept of "punishing the shot that is nearly perfect"?

It is kind of the opposite of the graduated rough where a shot that just misses the green from 200 yards out puts you in a deep bunker, where as if you slice short right, you might have an easier pitch on. I play/have played more of his courses than any other arch, and while it seems like just about every hole he ever designed has bunkers left and right on every green, I feel like they offer great playability and great excitement for all levels of golfers, which is reflected in the fact that his courses are constantly mentioned with the best in the world.

[Adam Clayman]

Bump, just in case Tom Paul lives.

I do have an example of where balls hit within a yard of each other resulted in huge differences.

It was on my first visit to Ballyneal. Touring the 8th hole. Rupert had two golf balls and one club. We stopped about 70 yards from the green. He hit one that caught the right half of the left pimple.



It was rejected into the valley of moral digression. I immediately noted how the left side was higher and the approach to that back middle pin position (same as pictured) needed to be left. So, I punched the 7 iron and our balls flew identically, save for mine caught the left half of the left pimple. Literally less than a yard from where Rupert's ball had hit. Mine? Rolled up to 18 inches from the cup.

I'd say anyone who would cryt doon that type of divergence in results, from nearly the exact same shot,  accentuated by the firmness and short grass, is no sportsman.   

[TEPaul]

"I'd say anyone who would cryt doon that type of divergence in results, from nearly the exact same shot,  accentuated by the firmness and short grass, is no sportsman."


Adam:

Thank you for that example, description, photo etc. If the way you feel about those results is reflected in your quoted remark above I have no more issue at all with the way you look at these things. I agree with you completely!   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

I have been questioned by golfers on similar features.  The fact remains, whey you put in some kind of hazard, its intended to distinguish results.  Most understand bunkers, but fewer understand contours as hazard.  Fewer still understand them when in or adjacent to a green, believing all greens  ought to hold a decently played shot.

Of course, Ballyneal is intended as a stout test of golf to be played repeatedly.  The local muni is not.  I would gather than TD's other recent CO effort has far less of that near the greens, since its aimed at average players, even without the goal of dumbing it down.  However, for them, a good shot means getting it anywhere near the green.  For the scratch, a good shot should be able to get on some part of the green.

In short, if we are using proportionality, figuring out who we are primarily designing for affects the proportions.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Common Ground indeed has far less of those sorts of contours around greens ... but only because it doesn't have any of that sort of contour anywhere on the property, period.

Had we had the ground from Ballyneal on the Denver / Aurora line, I would have been happy to build a course just like Ballyneal there for public golfers.

P.S.  Ballyneal was not really intended as "a stout test of golf" although we do hope it's played repeatedly.  It was intended to be fun and challenging, but not to be over the head of players of any ability.  And I think it succeeds really well in that regard.

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