Old White at Greenbrier to Host PGA Tour Event

[Jerry Kluger]

I read that the PGA Tour will have an event on the Old White Course at the Greenbrier starting next year.  The restoration has been well received and it is great that an old classic will host an event.  The question is how it will hold up against today's players and technology, especially if it rains and the greens are soft. 

[Carl Nichols]

My question is whether they can fill the galleries -- the Greenbrier isn't exactly close to a major metropolitan area.

[Greg Tallman]

This is a sign of the times.

I doubt the Tour would have considered this event prior to the economic collapse.

Too many issues:

1. The Course - Not exactly tour quality and one that will likely yeild record scoring. The only defense would be outrageous rough, rock hard greens and speeds of 14 on some pretty cool greens

2. Lodging - Apart from the Greenbrier itself where can the support staff stay? Players... sure Justice will make this part of the deal, rooms et al included for players and family.

3. Attendance - Most events get what 15-25000 per day? There are not that many people living within 30 miles of the place.

4. Air Service - Where do the players fly into? I guarantee you Justice has agreed to charter planes from the previous week's tour stop directly into the private strip. Otherwise players are looking at multiple connections just to get within a 2 hour drive of the resort.


What will be the result?

An event that is as much about the "production" as it is about the golf. Justice will pull out all of the stops in making sure the players and families are pampered and entertained throughout the week. Look for concerts and celebs out the wazoo Monday through Friday.

Record scoring 27-32 under to win

GAMBLING... somehow he will fast track the gaming side of things that is needed to save the resort and launch it in conjunction with  or just before this event... Think Monte Carlo rather than Vegas.

Wives imploring the husabnds to make sure this event is on the schedule for next year.

Justice will make Jim Hardy's hospitality at Nemacolin Woodlands look like a poorly planned dinner party.
 

[Jim_Kennedy]

There are 135k folks living in the counties that abut Greenbrier county (it has 35k people).

Interstate 64 is close.

There is an airport 15 minutes away. major within one hour.

There are only 712 rooms at the Greenbrier and several hundred more in the surounding area. You will be staying an hour away if your going for more than a day.

One third of the total population in the U.S. lives within 5 hours.

They signed a 6 year deal w/6million purses. 

[Jim Franklin]

I would think The Sporting Club would have been a great choice for the event. I LOVE the Old White Course, but it is not a PGA tour event course. Greg is right, record scoring. I hope it does well. I love that place and go there nearly every year.

Won't it be part of the Fed Ex Cup and have a limited field too? That should help.

[Jerry Kluger]

The players will need to recognize that owners like Mr. Justice are the future of events right now as many companies will have a tough time justifying sponsorships to their shareholders.  It is a tough life having to go to a beautiful mountain resort for a week just to get a paycheck.

[Greg Tallman]

There are 135k folks living in the counties that abut Greenbrier county (it has 35k people).
How many of those people play or understand golf? How many would spend much money to buy tickets? Attendance could be tour low.

Interstate 64 is close.
Great, put everyone on one of the most dangerous roads in the US!!!

There is an airport 15 minutes away. major within one hour.
Private airport helps Tiger and a couple others though they might well fly them in. What are you calling a major airport? Surely not Yeager?

There are only 712 rooms at the Greenbrier and several hundred more in the surounding area. You will be staying an hour away if your going for more than a day.
They will make a million or so back on room rates alone while showacasing the new and improved Greenbrier

One third of the total population in the U.S. lives within 5 hours.
I would have to challenge that number Jim, I lived in the state and it took longer than 3 hours to get there. Of course 64 was still a dead ender back then

They signed a 6 year deal w/6million purses.
Great marketing concept for the owner 

[Tim Gavrich]

Keep in mind that -32 would be four consecutive 62s.  No one is going to shoot that at the Old White.

Scores will be no lower than they ever were at Warwick Hills, I'd guess.  The Old White is 6,826 yards, par 70.  TPC River Highlands, where the Travelers Championship is held, is 6,841 yards, par 70.    The green complexes at Old White are interesting and challenging enough to keep scores reasonable.

From what I remember, if Mr. Justice so desires, a few new tees could be constructed to make a few holes a club longer or so.  The 3rd hole, the Biarritz, is 205 from the tips but could have a new tee built behind the 2nd green that would make the hole 220 or so.  The 8th hole, the Redan, measures 217 from the tips but could potentially be made into a 235 yard hole (the slopes would keep it a good challenge at that yardage).  They could probably squeeze a few more yards out of the 12th or 13th holes but at 568 and 450 respectively, I would say there's no real need.  Also, as I said in the other thread, I would love to see the 17th hole converted into a long par 4 rendering the tournament Old White course a par 69.  That hole is only 514 from the tips with little defense; it would be a relatively defenseless hole in the tournament.  Not that that's a bad thing, but TV viewers might prefer a long par 4 to a dinky par 5.

I'm really excited for this tournament.  Great course, beautiful place.  People will come watch the event.

[Lester George]

Gentlemen,

I have just returned from five days at The Greenbrier a would not/could not describe for you the details associated with the Greenbrier Classic because of a number of reasons but primarily the amount of time it would take.  I just don't have it.

I will say that many of your comments and speculations are so far from what has, and is being discussed it would only cause more speculation and confusion for me to address them.  These things do validate for me that some people are very perceptive about design and some just don't have a clue. 

I will promise this.  As information that is FACTUAL becomes available, I will endeavor to keep you informed if you so desire.  I will not be able to help with inuedo, heresay or rumors because as you might expect, things are moving quickly for us now and I just won't have the time to.

I can say that we at George Golf Design are delighted that they (PGA Tour, Greenbrier) chose the Old White and the reasons they chose it which were variety of holes, design complexity, uiqueness, strategy, logistics and others.  After they saw it the first time they were convinced.  Hope this helps, I'll check in later.

Lester

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Exciting stuff Lester.  Its almost as if the PGA Tour is going back to the good ole days... with the additions of Old White, Congressional, and Sedgefield in the rotation.  Would love to see the trend continue in other markets... especially ones that currently play on the 'bomb and gauge' designs.  It will be interesting to see if the new groove regulations make some of the better short, traditional courses relevant again.  Bring back Westchester...

[Greg Tallman]

Gentlemen,

I have just returned from five days at The Greenbrier a would not/could not describe for you the details associated with the Greenbrier Classic because of a number of reasons but primarily the amount of time it would take.  I just don't have it.

I will say that many of your comments and speculations are so far from what has, and is being discussed it would only cause more speculation and confusion for me to address them.  These things do validate for me that some people are very perceptive about design and some just don't have a clue. 

I will promise this.  As information that is FACTUAL becomes available, I will endeavor to keep you informed if you so desire.  I will not be able to help with inuedo, heresay or rumors because as you might expect, things are moving quickly for us now and I just won't have the time to.

I can say that we at George Golf Design are delighted that they (PGA Tour, Greenbrier) chose the Old White and the reasons they chose it which were variety of holes, design complexity, uiqueness, strategy, logistics and others.  After they saw it the first time they were convinced.  Hope this helps, I'll check in later.

Lester

Lester,

With all due respect I have played the course under tournament conditions and I stand by the assertion that it might well yield record scoring unless severe conditions are imposed. Please do not take that as a criticism of the design... it is what it is and has as much to do with the talent of the players as the course. 

The rest is not even heresay... just speculation.

[Carl Nichols]

The rest is not even heresay... just speculation.

Except for the location/population issue, unless they've figured out a way to move the course.

[Tim Gavrich]

Gentlemen,

I have just returned from five days at The Greenbrier a would not/could not describe for you the details associated with the Greenbrier Classic because of a number of reasons but primarily the amount of time it would take.  I just don't have it.

I will say that many of your comments and speculations are so far from what has, and is being discussed it would only cause more speculation and confusion for me to address them.  These things do validate for me that some people are very perceptive about design and some just don't have a clue. 

I will promise this.  As information that is FACTUAL becomes available, I will endeavor to keep you informed if you so desire.  I will not be able to help with inuedo, heresay or rumors because as you might expect, things are moving quickly for us now and I just won't have the time to.

I can say that we at George Golf Design are delighted that they (PGA Tour, Greenbrier) chose the Old White and the reasons they chose it which were variety of holes, design complexity, uiqueness, strategy, logistics and others.  After they saw it the first time they were convinced.  Hope this helps, I'll check in later.

Lester

Lester,

With all due respect I have played the course under tournament conditions and I stand by the assertion that it might well yield record scoring unless severe conditions are imposed. Please do not take that as a criticism of the design... it is what it is and has as much to do with the talent of the players as the course. 

The rest is not even heresay... just speculation.

Greg--

Could you be more specific about your round(s) at the Old White?  I don't mean to be adversarial or anything; I'm just curious as to your specifics that back up your assertions.  Also, have you played some other PGA Tour venues under "tournament conditions"?  I'd be especially interested to hear your thoughts on TPC River Highlands in CT if you've played it, seeing as it is the most similar type of course to Old White.

I have played TPC River Highlands three or four times and the course is almost always kept in "tournament conditions," minus a little firmness on the greens and some length in the rough.  I'm no PGA Tour player, but I have shot 74 or 75 there two of those times, I believe.  I shot 74 at Old White the one time I've played it, so based on that (admittedly very unscientific) comparison, I am thinking that Old White might hold up a little better than record scoring.

Interested to hear back.

Cheers.

--Tim

[Chip Gaskins]

Lester-

Can you talk a little about the process you used to restore this great Macdonald/Raynor course?  Old photos, surveys, etc.....

Chip

[Greg Tallman]

Gentlemen,

I have just returned from five days at The Greenbrier a would not/could not describe for you the details associated with the Greenbrier Classic because of a number of reasons but primarily the amount of time it would take.  I just don't have it.

I will say that many of your comments and speculations are so far from what has, and is being discussed it would only cause more speculation and confusion for me to address them.  These things do validate for me that some people are very perceptive about design and some just don't have a clue. 

I will promise this.  As information that is FACTUAL becomes available, I will endeavor to keep you informed if you so desire.  I will not be able to help with inuedo, heresay or rumors because as you might expect, things are moving quickly for us now and I just won't have the time to.

I can say that we at George Golf Design are delighted that they (PGA Tour, Greenbrier) chose the Old White and the reasons they chose it which were variety of holes, design complexity, uiqueness, strategy, logistics and others.  After they saw it the first time they were convinced.  Hope this helps, I'll check in later.

Lester

Lester,

With all due respect I have played the course under tournament conditions and I stand by the assertion that it might well yield record scoring unless severe conditions are imposed. Please do not take that as a criticism of the design... it is what it is and has as much to do with the talent of the players as the course. 

The rest is not even heresay... just speculation.

Greg--

Could you be more specific about your round(s) at the Old White?  I don't mean to be adversarial or anything; I'm just curious as to your specifics that back up your assertions.  Also, have you played some other PGA Tour venues under "tournament conditions"?  I'd be especially interested to hear your thoughts on TPC River Highlands in CT if you've played it, seeing as it is the most similar type of course to Old White.

I have played TPC River Highlands three or four times and the course is almost always kept in "tournament conditions," minus a little firmness on the greens and some length in the rough.  I'm no PGA Tour player, but I have shot 74 or 75 there two of those times, I believe.  I shot 74 at Old White the one time I've played it, so based on that (admittedly very unscientific) comparison, I am thinking that Old White might hold up a little better than record scoring.

Interested to hear back.

Cheers.

--Tim

Tim,

Back in the day I played it various times in state amateur competition. There is just not much intimdation factor on the course. Heck, over 4 days I would be willing to bet that of the top 10 half will be 6 under on the 17th hole alone unless some major tweaks are introduced or unless Lester drastically cheged the green surface. 514 yard par 5 without a single defense.

Have never played River HIghlands though a couple of college teammates have taken turns running the show there in the past. Off the top of my head I would suggest that TPC RH offers more in the way of trouble than does Old White.

I have played several tour facilities and as an example Muirfield Village, which has in the past yiedled scores as low as what, -18? That course is no less than 6 shots more difficult than Old White. Closer to Greenbrier the Nationwide Tour visits Pete Dye Golf Club each year. Again a course infinitely more difficult in my mind but it too gives up super low scoring on a regular basis and these are the guys that can't make the big show in a given year.

I am not criticizing the course only saying that the tournament announcement is a sign of the economic times given the Tour's willingness to go to a rural location and play a course that is far from the typical tour venue. Don't get me wrong, it will be great to watch them play such a course and its good for the tour to visit resort/public facilities where the masses )maybe not at this resort) can watch the big boys play a course that they have.

I also think comparing how a course compares to your game, which is obviously pretty solid, is apples and oranges.

Whatever the case I am excited that the Tour is visiting my home state and hope the pubblicity helps the new owner of the resort resore it bcak to its former glory.

[Lester George]

Last Tuesday the WV Ametuer round at the Old White yielded not on single score under par.  I'm not sure about Thursday because I left but maybe they did better.  I think I heard the the champion shot 67 (3 under) on the final day. 

In any event, it is a much stronger course than in 2002 when we started.  I don't care to speculate what the PGA Tour players will shoot but I do know it will do just fine.  After having lunch with Tom Watson on Wednesday and listening to his analysis of his past few rounds, I know he respects it. 

Lester

[Wayne_Kozun]

Exciting stuff Lester.  Its almost as if the PGA Tour is going back to the good ole days... with the additions of Old White, Congressional, and Sedgefield in the rotation.  Would love to see the trend continue in other markets... especially ones that currently play on the 'bomb and gauge' designs.  It will be interesting to see if the new groove regulations make some of the better short, traditional courses relevant again.  Bring back Westchester...

If the PGA Tour was going back to the good ole days it would have given an event with some history - like the Canadian Open - this date and moved it away from its horrible date of one week after the Open Championship.  That is the date that this event should have received.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Baby steps, Wayne... at least they're giving these courses a shot.

[Wayne_Kozun]

And next year's Canadian Open is at St Georges, a classic Stanley Thompson design which is one of the top courses in Canada.

There are a limited number of good dates in the summer that don't conflict with the majors so I think it is very disingenous of the tour to take a good date and give it to a new tournament with no history.  This is now twice - first was Tiger's new AT&T tourney in Washington (now Philly I believe) and now it is the Buick tournament dying and the replacement going to a new tournament at Greenbrier.

[Tim Gavrich]

Goodness, there are going to be a bunch of classic courses hosting PGA Tour events for next year.  Old White, Aronimink, Pebble Beach, there are more I'm sure.

[Jason McNamara]

...the one immediately above your post, for one.  And Riviera, of course.

[Lester George]

Greg,

When was the last time you played the Old White in "tournament conditions"?

Wayne,

Obviously the PGA Tour did not agree with your assessment on dates.  Maybe tha dates change in the future to accomodate the Canadian.  Don't forget, the Greenbrier was a regular professional stop from 1948 to 1961 so it deserves consideration.  Personally, I don't agree with you, but your point is valid and has been discussed.

Lester

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

When was the last time you played the Old White in "tournament conditions"?

Wayne,

Obviously the PGA Tour did not agree with your assessment on dates.  Maybe tha dates change in the future to accomodate the Canadian.  Don't forget, the Greenbrier was a regular professional stop from 1948 to 1961 so it deserves consideration.  Personally, I don't agree with you, but your point is valid and has been discussed.

Lester

Lester, Looooooong before 2002! You mention it is much stronger now than in the past. Can you elaborate on the changes as I was basing my assumption on having read a fair bit about your restoration/renovation works. Not sure your intent in using quotes around the words tournament conditions, are you implying something here? Obviously the Tour setup will be more difficult but does not change the fact that my experience at the course is was in tournament play. Yes Tim Fisher did shoot 67 the final day: -4 on the front +1 on the back. Tim is solid player(who worked for friends back home) but far from entertaining a playing career, his words not mine. 

[Tim Gavrich]

Greg,

When was the last time you played the Old White in "tournament conditions"?

Wayne,

Obviously the PGA Tour did not agree with your assessment on dates.  Maybe tha dates change in the future to accomodate the Canadian.  Don't forget, the Greenbrier was a regular professional stop from 1948 to 1961 so it deserves consideration.  Personally, I don't agree with you, but your point is valid and has been discussed.

Lester

Lester, Looooooong before 2002! You mention it is much stronger now than in the past. Can you elaborate on the changes as I was basing my assumption on having read a fair bit about your restoration/renovation works. Not sure your intent in using quotes around the words tournament conditions, are you implying something here? Obviously the Tour setup will be more difficult but does not change the fact that my experience at the course is was in tournament play. Yes Tim Fisher did shoot 67 the final day: -4 on the front +1 on the back. Tim is solid player(who worked for friends back home) but far from entertaining a playing career, his words not mine. 

Greg--

Here's the link to the picture-filled thread I posted on Old White last fall:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37136.0/

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

When was the last time you played the Old White in "tournament conditions"?

Wayne,

Obviously the PGA Tour did not agree with your assessment on dates.  Maybe tha dates change in the future to accomodate the Canadian.  Don't forget, the Greenbrier was a regular professional stop from 1948 to 1961 so it deserves consideration.  Personally, I don't agree with you, but your point is valid and has been discussed.

Lester

Lester, Looooooong before 2002! You mention it is much stronger now than in the past. Can you elaborate on the changes as I was basing my assumption on having read a fair bit about your restoration/renovation works. Not sure your intent in using quotes around the words tournament conditions, are you implying something here? Obviously the Tour setup will be more difficult but does not change the fact that my experience at the course is was in tournament play. Yes Tim Fisher did shoot 67 the final day: -4 on the front +1 on the back. Tim is solid player(who worked for friends back home) but far from entertaining a playing career, his words not mine. 

Greg--

Here's the link to the picture-filled thread I posted on Old White last fall:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37136.0/

Tim, Thank you. I will check it out at home where I am able to see more than a bunch of red X's... looks like my last socrecard! greg