News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Carl Rogers

Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« on: August 05, 2009, 08:52:47 PM »
Scott Weersing & I had the great pleasure of playing Ballyhack outside of Roanoke Virginia.  Thank you Lester!

It had bent grass fairways and was pretty frim & fast.  The only other course I have ever played that firm and fast with bent fairways was Beechtree (RIP). 

Does bent lend itself to firm & fast more than bermuda or is it a function of soil condtions? ... that drain faster? ... water management?

Last question, it does seem that winter time dormant bermuda seems to play more firm and fast than the summertime green bermuda.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 08:55:42 PM »
The key to firm and fast with both grasses is thatch control, and completely related, water management.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 10:50:20 PM »
I don't know the answer to this, and I realize that you just played there, but are you sure that the fairways at Ballyhack are bent grass?  I think more of the courses in that part of VA would have bluegrass fairways and fescue rough, or something like that.  I'd think that trying to grow in bent grass in the Roanoke area would be tough, and maintaining it in the summers even tougher.  I was just in that part of the state three weeks ago, and have played several courses in the same general area, and I've never seen bent grass fairways.

I am willing to be wrong on this; just curious.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2009, 09:41:59 AM »
A.G.,
Bent grass fairways are gaining in popularity here in Virginia. Kinloch and Hermitage CC in Richmond both have bent fairways. The new Spring Creek Golf Club outside Charlottesville has bent, and there are a handful of other courses in the western part of the state (where it’s typically a little cooler) that have bent fairways.

In Richmond I’ve found that the bent fairways tend to play a lot softer than bermuda during the summer. The bent requires a lot of water to cope with the heat. In the spring and fall, the bent can play a little firmer, but I’d favor Bermuda over bent May thru September.

My club in Richmond has TifSport bermuda fairways, and they play very firm and fast June through October (much firmer than any bent fairways within 60 miles of us). The downside of course is that they start to go dormant in November and don’t come back until May usually.

Perhaps it’s different with other types of Bermuda, but I have never found that dormant Bermuda plays firmer or faster than green Bermuda. Unless we have an extended drought period through the winter months, the ground is usually very soft and wet because the grass isn’t soaking up any of the water. In the summer, we could get an inch of rain overnight during, and you wouldn’t even know it the next day. In the winter, it would be a swamp.

It’s good to hear that Ballyhack is playing firm. My biggest gripe with one of Lester’s other designs (Kinloch) is that they seem to focus too much on “lush and green” and the course seems to always play soft as a result of that. Ballyhack looks like a lot of fun, and I hope to get out that way to see it soon.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 10:10:18 AM »
It is my understanding that RTJ also has bent grass fairways, and each time I've played it the fairways have been perfect -- firm, fast, and tight.  I was told that when he built the course, RTJ heard from many people that bent grass fairways wouldn't work in that part of the world, but he insisted it could be done -- and, from what I've seen, he was quite correct. 

Kyle Harris

Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 03:21:01 PM »
It is my understanding that RTJ also has bent grass fairways, and each time I've played it the fairways have been perfect -- firm, fast, and tight.  I was told that when he built the course, RTJ heard from many people that bent grass fairways wouldn't work in that part of the world, but he insisted it could be done -- and, from what I've seen, he was quite correct. 

Budget?

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 06:05:30 PM »
Kyle:
Funny you ask -- I almost added that I have no idea what the budget was/is.  I suspect it's pretty healthy, and they also don't get a ton of rounds.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 10:53:06 PM »
A.G.,
Bent grass fairways are gaining in popularity here in Virginia. Kinloch and Hermitage CC in Richmond both have bent fairways. The new Spring Creek Golf Club outside Charlottesville has bent, and there are a handful of other courses in the western part of the state (where it’s typically a little cooler) that have bent fairways.

In Richmond I’ve found that the bent fairways tend to play a lot softer than bermuda during the summer. The bent requires a lot of water to cope with the heat. In the spring and fall, the bent can play a little firmer, but I’d favor Bermuda over bent May thru September.

My club in Richmond has TifSport bermuda fairways, and they play very firm and fast June through October (much firmer than any bent fairways within 60 miles of us). The downside of course is that they start to go dormant in November and don’t come back until May usually.

Perhaps it’s different with other types of Bermuda, but I have never found that dormant Bermuda plays firmer or faster than green Bermuda. Unless we have an extended drought period through the winter months, the ground is usually very soft and wet because the grass isn’t soaking up any of the water. In the summer, we could get an inch of rain overnight during, and you wouldn’t even know it the next day. In the winter, it would be a swamp.

It’s good to hear that Ballyhack is playing firm. My biggest gripe with one of Lester’s other designs (Kinloch) is that they seem to focus too much on “lush and green” and the course seems to always play soft as a result of that. Ballyhack looks like a lot of fun, and I hope to get out that way to see it soon.


Cabell,
Thanks for the reply; I learned something about my home state (though I haven't lived there in a long, long time.)

I agree with you about dormant bermuda; there is a brief period when it first goes dormant and isn't being watered anymore when there is still some absorbency it seems, and playing conditions are great.  But it gets thinner and sloppier by the day, and most of the winter nobody would confuse it with F&F.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bent Grass Fairways vs Bermuda Grass Fairways
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 07:23:59 AM »

For those who played at World Woods in Fl last year, how did they keep the bermuda there fast and firm?

I am beginning to think almost any course can play fast and firm if the golf course superintendent wants to and the weather cooperates. Can you have fast and firm year round. I doubt it.

For example, Rustic Canyon, which has neither bent nor bermuda, can play fast and firm but they have something in the soil that they have to leech out with over watering. So the areas around the greens where you would bounce the ball in can be soft at different times. They may have overcome this problem as I played Rustic Canyon in May and it was fast and firm.

I think it is combination of soil, grass maintenance, and weather that makes a course fast and firm. I don't think we can't point to just one thing.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back