[K. Krahenbuhl]

For some reason the link to Ran's course profile of Eastward Ho under the "Courses By Country" tab doesn't work.  I hope that is just a temporary situation.

Ed

Here you go Ed...

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/eastward-ho-country-club-ma-usa

[Ed Oden]

Thanks Kyle.  Are you using a link other than the one in the Courses By Country section?  That one still doesn't work for me.

[Tom MacWood]

EH! has a very interesting history. Prior to 1916 several Bostonians were searching Massachusetts for the prefect site to build their ideal course a la NGLA and Pine Valley. They were led by Herbert Windeler and Herbert Jaques of The Country Club, both British citizens living and working in Boston. Windeler was largely responsible for redesigning Brookline; Jaques also dabbled in golf architecture.

They found the present site near Chatham in 1916, and brought in Willie Park-Jr to inspect the site and report on the possibilities. His report was very favorable. I'm not sure why the course was delayed until 1920 and why Fowler was ultimately chosen - perhaps WWI.

The gentleman who oversaw construction was Charles Hardy, a Boston stockbroker who built the Chatham Bars Inn. Before construction began, at Fowler's suggestion, Hardy travelled to Britain to study the best of modern architecture, including WHF's redesigned Westward Ho!

Windeler was the club's first president. He and Jaques were former presidents of the USGA.

I remember in the early years of this website (circa 1999) I suggested that Eastward Ho! was severely underrated and a couple of Golf Digest raters (who shall remain nameless) suggested the course was just OK.

Here is old picture of the 3rd - note the cross bunkers off the tee - and below that the plan for the course. The plan has the appearance of a plasticine model.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Thanks Kyle.  Are you using a link other than the one in the Courses By Country section?  That one still doesn't work for me.

From the architecture timeline.

[Tom MacWood]

Another interesting tidbit, legend has it that Fowler road the site of Walton Heath on horseback before designing the course. He did the same thing at EH!. They borrowed horses from Myopia Hunt Club.

[Mike Sweeney]

Another interesting tidbit, legend has it that Fowler road the site of Walton Heath on horseback before designing the course. He did the same thing at EH!. They borrowed horses from Myopia Hunt Club.

Tom,

They are waving the red flag on that one out at Nauset Beach. They brought horses down from the North Shore all the way out to Chatham because they were Myopia horses? Come on!

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
This from the EH! club history: "...since no suitable pony could be found in the local area he ended up perched on a polo pony sent from Myopia Hunt Club north of Boston..."

Hell if I know - I'm not up on the Cape Cod polo scene. Perhaps Fowler's girth posed a problem. He was 6'4" and I'd guess about 220.

[Paul_Turner]

My mate Noel Freeman wrote and excellent article on Eastward Ho! in Neil Crafter's Golf Architecture Volume 10.

[TEPaul]

“Prior to 1916 several Bostonians were searching Massachusetts for the prefect site to build their ideal course a la NGLA and Pine Valley. They were led by Herbert Windeler and Herbert Jaques of The Country Club, both British citizens living and working in Boston.”

“They found the present site near Chatham in 1916, and brought in Willie Park-Jr to inspect the site and report on the possibilities. His report was very favorable. I'm not sure why the course was delayed until 1920 and why Fowler was ultimately chosen - perhaps WWI.”

“He and Jaques were former presidents of the USGA.”




Tom:

Herbert Jacques was not a British citizen living and working in Boston. Jacques was born in Massachusetts. I believe Windeler was a generational American too even though he was reputed to be an English expert. Both Jacques (1909-10) and Windeler (1903-04) were early presidents of the USGA and Jacques’s son was the president of the USGA in 1933-34. In 1916 the first Jacques was dead!! I went to St Mark’s School in Massachusetts with Herbert Jacques. The first Jacques was his great grandfather, the second one his grandfather. The Jacques lived right across the street from my brother in the 1960s and 1970s in Pride’s Crossing, Mass.

Where do you come up with this stuff such as Windeler and Jacques were British citizens living and working in Boston? And where did you come up with your statement earlier on the “Willie Campbell and Myopia” thread that Willie Campbell was Herbert C. Leeds of Myopia's mentor?


As for Eastward Ho! and Herbert Fowler, both are my first picks of what I would like to see next and the architect I would like to know more about. I just got a call recently from a past longtime Green Chairman of Merion who I believe now lives in Chatham, Mass. The last thing he said was to come up and see and play Eastward Ho! Or at least I think he said that and the next time I speak to him I will be sure to tell him at least I think he said that and if he says he doesn't remember saying that I'll just tell him that doesn't matter because I'm coming anyway.  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You're right. I was thinking of Windeler's Brookline mate and former business partner John Wylde. He was also a British citizen. Neither man became American citizens. Windeler may be the only USGA president who was not an American citizen.

Regarding Campbell being Leeds mentor that came from an excellent article about Leeds written by Bob Labbance.

I love Chatham. Its a great place to take the family.

[TEPaul]

"Regarding Campbell being Leeds mentor that came from an excellent article about Leeds written by Bob Labbance."


Tom:

Do you remember if Bob Labbance said where he came up with an idea like that; where he read it or heard it? Well, don't worry about trying to explain that, I'm sure you probably don't remember. I'll call Kevin Melnik and ask him if he remembers where Bob came up with an idea like that. Matter of fact, Kevin actually spoke about Leeds at the Herbert C. Leeds member/guest tournament dinner last weekend at Myopia.

[Brad Tufts]

When I first started browsing GCA a few years ago, Eastward Ho! was the first course I really didn't recognize much whose profile I read.  It looks marvelous, although I'm left to wonder something.  Does the nature of the terrain in the fairways dictate that on some holes (par 4s mostly, I mean), a majority of tee shots roll to the same general area due to the big slopes?  If so, does the subsequent taking of many divots in a concentrated area--a la #10 at Shinnecock in the 2004 US Open--constitute a slight foible?  Or does EH just not get enough play for it to matter so much?

--Tim

Hi Tim.... Eastward Ho! is truly a treat.  The fairway undulations really need to be seen to be believed.  they are not humpy-bumpy like TOC or Ballyliffin-Old, but they are undulating on a much grander scale, because the the course seems to be built on a glacially-formed sandy base.  The undulations are a fun challenge, as you have to really control your ball flight in relation to your stance.  I don't remember balls all gathering in the same places, I think wear and tear is still spread out enough  The only place where the course is lacking for me is in length.  At only 6200 yards, the long-bomber can really hit the ball all over and still play ok.  Of course, 6200 with lots of undulation is perfectly fine for 90-95% of the golfing population!  Truly a great blue-blood early-American golf experience.

[David Druzisky]

Great to see Keith's work getting a little notice and discussion.  While working for him and shortly thereafter he did a fair amount of new design work and yes I think you could say none of the sites were great to start with.  The Quarry (San Antonio) got it going for him and then he did a fair amount of city courses in TX and CO actually.  I think most would say his Harvester is his best thus far.  I have not seen it myself.

His forte is definitely restoration/renovation and he has some great clients in the coming years in Travis's Garden City CC, Colt & Allisons Knollwood and Orchard Lake, Tilly's Philadelphia Cricket and Langford's Chickesaw.  I think I have seen mostly positive feedback on his past efforts at Colonial, Southern Hills, and Baltimore.

[Sean_A]

The more I see of Fowler's work the more impressed I am - the guy did it all.  I would dearly like to see Eastward Ho! someday as it looks to perhaps be the best of his work.  Great land to work with after having solid experience behind him.  Thanks for this thread.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, fwiw coming for me (a pictures-only guy), it's Fowler, Colt and Flynn, maybe in that order. "He could do it all" seems a very good description.  You know how there's that term 'whole hole unity' (I think I got that right) - well those three seemed to have "whole course unity" down pat; wonderful individual holes, yes, but more so sums that were more than the parts. And as I write that, I'm struck by the fact that maybe this is where the pictures-only bit is a real liability, i.e. I haven't experienced the playing of any of the individual holes (great or not), and so put more emphasis on the whole. But goodness, there is always something "organic" about his courses, and for a sport that's played outside in nature, organic goes a long way for me

Peter

[Sean_A]

Pietro

It would be an interesting study to see Dr Mac, Fowler and Colt compared/contrasted by someone who really knew his stuff.  What always strikes me about Fowler was his willingness to let the land dominate the course.  I never quite get that feeling on a Colt course.  He seems to to have wanted to add that architectural element (usually a very good strategic feature) which brought order to the course.  Fowler seemed to not mind having chaos and perhaps this is why his courses all look so different whereas many of Colt's have a signature style(s) to them.  In other words, I find very few examples of Colt's work where the design is debatable - it is good and obviously so.  Fowler on the other hand has elements which are debatable as good, awkward or perhaps left too much in nature's hands. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

I don't think Fowler let the land dictate his designs anymore than the other famous guys....there's plenty of construction on his courses (even Walton Heath Old).  I think the reason why his courses seem different is that he didn't build all that many and he probably used different contractors.  The other old dead guys were more prolific and had dedicated contractors for most of their careers.

[Sean_A]

I don't think Fowler let the land dictate his designs anymore than the other famous guys....there's plenty of construction on his courses (even Walton Heath Old).  I think the reason why his courses seem different is that he didn't build all that many and he probably used different contractors.  The other old dead guys were more prolific and had dedicated contractors for most of their careers.

Paul

Needless to say I disagree completely with you.  I think Colt was the most constructive of the archies in the UK - he was very modern in his approach.  Colt was more prescriptive than Fowler.  However, I think you are right in that Colt did many more courses and eventually there must be tell tale signs of his work especially if using the same construction companies.   That said, perhaps this illustrates a fundamentally different approach in itself.  For instance, Colt's green sites are often highlighted with corner mounding - I think to improve the visuals of the target.  Fowler often did bare bones construction that can look crude compared to Colt who would go whole hog. His bare bones look also included more balanced green sites whereas Colt had an extreme penchant for raised greens (part of his theory that approach shots shouldn't be blind).  A lot of the raised greens are fooled around with quite a bit.  I think the end result is Fowler's courses more than look different, they play differently from Colt courses and I think a big reason for this is Fowler still had a foot in the old ways design whereas Colt more modern and plenty willing to shift the land to his desire.  Hence the reason Colt courses are less hit and miss than Fowler courses. 

Ciao 

[Tom MacWood]

Fowler was modern for his times too. To my knowledge he was the first to use heavy machinery to build a golf course (at Walton Heath Old). I believe Fowler was also the first to use plasticine models for his greens (Simpson gave him the idea at Cruden Bay circa 1910), and many others later picked up on that idea.  From what I understand he used plasticine throughout his career, when many others gave up on it (including Simpson) because they believed it produced greens that looked like plasticine models, too artificial. That practice may have contributed to the 'crude' or old fashioned appearance of his courses.

Another possible reason for the differences between Fowler and Colt could be age. The majority of Fowler's work was done before WW1.

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I think you're over generalizing and in the main, I don't think Fowler did bare bones construction... so he didn't let the land dictate anymore than the other guys.

I know Eastward Ho! and it's so wild that any architect worth his salt would have let the land dictate.  He'd have no choice really.

Anyway, lets hope a modern designer doesn't get hold of some Fowler courses and make these all look the same.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

When you speak of Fowler's style what courses are you thinking of, specifically?  I have only seen four, I think, and they are all very different, but that's a very small sample size and I could not generalize too much about what his style really was.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

When you speak of Fowler's style what courses are you thinking of, specifically?  I have only seen four, I think, and they are all very different, but that's a very small sample size and I could not generalize too much about what his style really was.

Tom(s)

Comparative to Colt, I believe Fowler was certainly a man caught between two worlds.  

The courses I have in mind are Saunton, Westward Ho!, Beau Desert, Blackwell, Berkshire (the one which really stands out as an odd duck and very (Colt like), Bull Bay, Walton Heath (New especially) and from pix Yelverton.  There are probably a few others I am forgetting at the moment.  I can readly agree that Colt had a much larger sample size so his courses are bound to have a more similar similar feel.  However, that wasn't really my point.  I was trying to describe reasons why Fowler and Colt produced such different courses (I too can't really pinpoint a Fowler style, but I can for Colt) and considering how many courses Colt did at how high of a spec they are.  

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean:

When you speak of Fowler's style what courses are you thinking of, specifically?  I have only seen four, I think, and they are all very different, but that's a very small sample size and I could not generalize too much about what his style really was.

Tom(s)

Comparative to Colt, I believe Fowler was certainly a man caught between two worlds.  

The courses I have in mind are Saunton, Westward Ho!, Beau Desert, Blackwell, Berkshire (the one which really stands out as an odd duck and very (Colt like), Bull Bay, Walton Heath (New especially) and from pix Yelverton.  There are probably a few others I am forgetting at the moment.  I can readly agree that Colt had a much larger sample size so his courses are bound to have a more similar similar feel.  However, that wasn't really my point.  I was trying to describe reasons why Fowler and Colt produced such different courses (I too can't really pinpoint a Fowler style, but I can for Colt) and considering how many courses Colt did at how high of a spec they are.  

Ciao

Sean

We have to be careful here: Blackwell is definitely Tom Simpson's and Saunton is a mix with post war designers,  I remember I kind of worked which holes were Fowler's.  I think you've played Delamere too?

[Tom MacWood]

Sean:

When you speak of Fowler's style what courses are you thinking of, specifically?  I have only seen four, I think, and they are all very different, but that's a very small sample size and I could not generalize too much about what his style really was.

Tom(s)

Comparative to Colt, I believe Fowler was certainly a man caught between two worlds.  

The courses I have in mind are Saunton, Westward Ho!, Beau Desert, Blackwell, Berkshire (the one which really stands out as an odd duck and very (Colt like), Bull Bay, Walton Heath (New especially) and from pix Yelverton.  There are probably a few others I am forgetting at the moment.  I can readly agree that Colt had a much larger sample size so his courses are bound to have a more similar similar feel.  However, that wasn't really my point.  I was trying to describe reasons why Fowler and Colt produced such different courses (I too can't really pinpoint a Fowler style, but I can for Colt) and considering how many courses Colt did at how high of a spec they are.  

Ciao

Saunton was rebuilt after WWII, so its hard to say what is Fowler and what is not. Westward Ho, Beaudesert, Bull Bay, Yelverton and Walton Heath-New are all pre WW1. Blackwell is Simpson, and TS claimed to have been involved at Berkshire too, which may explain the look of the bunkers.

[Tom MacWood]

 I also think Paul is on to something when he suggested the differing construction outfits possibly having an effect. Here the US there seems to be wide difference in quality. Eastward Ho was likely built by the top people from Carters, the founder of the club, Windeler, was involved (a partner) with Carters American operation. But some of his other work, particularly in California - I'm thinking of Del Paso and Rancho - didn't look so hot. Dedham Polo was also really pissed with the quaility of the work too.

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