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Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hidden Valley
« on: May 06, 2002, 06:40:04 PM »
Have you ever wondered, after playing a golf course for the first time, whether it would have been better had the course not been constructed?

Over the past several days this thought has occurred to me on a number of occasions, after being an invited guest at Hidden Valley over a week ago.

The course, situated on the periphery of Central Victoria, about an hour’s drive north of Melbourne, is surrounded by some stunning scenery.

Hidden Valley Resort was developed by the late Robert Holmes a Court, a billionaire entrepreneur, as an equestrian centre, and that sport still plays a large part in Hidden Valley’s sporting activities.

Indeed, in retrospect, the place and surrounds are an ideal spot for the equine Olympic sport.

It is not an easy place to find either. My host gave me misleading instructions, and I ended up taking the wrong off ramp from the Hume Highway. The side road gradually turned to stone, then to dirt, before I spied a steeple in the middle distance believing it to be the clubhouse. It turned out to be a Tibetan Buddhist temple, and the smiling monk who answered the door couldn’t help me with directions to Hidden Valley.

A little while later, I came across two teenage girls riding their horses at the side of the dirt road, and I asked them if the could point me towards the Hidden Valley. The older of the two said, “Piss off creep, or I’ll call my father”, producing a mobile phone from her saddle bag as she was speaking.

This was indeed a strange part of Victoria thought I, so I headed back to the highway, and obtained directions from the service station.

The resort is located at the end of a dusty dirt road with obvious signs of a huge housing development taking place on the borders and within the golf course itself.

The area is pure clay soil - good, solid, caked clay. However, the Santa Anna fairways have thrived in such a questionable environment and were one of the few redeeming features of the golf course.

The site is undulating, and disappointingly, the mode of traverse preferred by he members appears to be the motorised cart. The course is not difficult to walk, save for a few long journeys between green the succeeding tee, and I was saddened to see so many fit young men riding with an air of nonchalance in the carts. I was later informed that the manager of the club is a former policewoman, who doesn’t play golf, and wants to turn the resort into an all-cart venue.

I know little of the company that designed the golf course, Pacific Coast Design, except to say that I was aware that they were redeveloping the Patterson River Country Club, and any alteration to that goat track of all goat tracks, could only be an improvement.

However, if they were to use Hidden Valley as a marketing tool for future developments, I don’t think they would be writing much business.

The design is unimaginative, and the only memorable hole is the last, which features an island green and is a very poor relation to the famous island green at TPC Sawgrass.

There are hidden water hazards everywhere, on the sides of fairways, over hillocks, behinds greens, tucked around dog-legs and memorably, on one of the back nine holes, right in the middle of fairway, located at the bottom of a hill and obscured from the tee.

From memory, 13 of the 18 holes feature water hazards, and hazards is most certainly the operative term for them.

On one of the par fives, the 16th, the landing area between the water hazards on either side of the fairway, is only about 10 metres. Drive too long on this hole and your ball disappears in the water, drive right and you finish in the water, drive left and say goodbye to your ball in the water. The only option is to drive over the left-hand hazard with a carry of around 235 metres, or tee off with a four iron. Great strategy eh?

I can’t be bothered going into detailed description of all the holes, as few of them are deserving of any laudable comments at all.

The last, the 180-metre island green is an interesting conclusion to a course that could be politely described as bland, or baldly, as bloody awful.

I can’t even go into detail about the last, as we played it in the dark, at around 6 pm.The four of us used five irons and upon arriving on the green we found only one ball on the putting surface.

All in all, this place is not worth the $10,000 joining fee (share) or the $2200 annual subscription. It is best used for equestrian events, as it was originally intended for, it is not golf country and never will be golf country.

The event of the day was Ambrose – a scratch event with no handicaps. We finished 12 up and won on countback. Each of us received a $100 gift voucher to be spent in the pro shop. Mine will never be spent, as I have little intention of putting in a return appearance at a golf course that most probably should not have been constructed on that particular plot of land in the first place.

Driving back out on the dirt road I found the valley  enshrouded in a thick fog, and the eyes of two Eastern Grey Kangaroos stared back at me in the middle of the track, mesmerised by the glare of my car’s headlight.

Yes, this valley certainly has its attractions, but golf is surely not one of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2002, 05:21:57 AM »
Funnily enough, I had a round last Saturday with a guy who had just played there, and he said that it was fantastic to go to a course where every hole is interesting.  He did not however give any impression of being a student of the game, but probably was fairly representative of your typical golfer.  This guy also said the place was going so well that construction had started on a second, Greg Norman course, but I admit I just dismissed as marketing hype.  I don't suppose you saw this supposed second course being built anywhere Mike?  I actually walked over a few holes when only the front nine was open for play a couple of years ago, and was surprised to see a bunker to the right of what I think was the second green that was dead level with the ground surface.  Maybe their celebrity architect Craig Parry has since been in to fix it up  :D.  The reality seems to be these days that most new courses are being built to sell blocks of land, and the punters just love their golf course and water frontage and do not actually realise that the courses are by and large total crap.  In its favor, it is actually quite easy to get to, being just up the hill on the main road through Wallan, about 20 minutes from the northern suburbs, so you must have received some very bad directions.  Funny that you mention the fog as well, it's not called Hidden Valley for nothing.

My exposure to Pacific Coast Design has been the construction of new dams at Medway, in the process destroying the practice fairway and creating some of the strangest mounding you will ever see amongst a stand of trees between the 11th and 12th fairways.  They almost automatically ensure that the ball will roll down the mound against the base of a tree.  The club possibly wear some of the blame for this, but it is disgustingly bad work for which there was an easy solution, dump the dirt in a large open area next to the gates they drove their trucks in.  Based on this work, I wouldn't bet on them improving Patterson River.  Irritatingly, I'm now a member of two clubs which have stuffed up their practice fairways.

I also think there are a few visitors to this site who could think of another course that should never have been built, eh Brian and Simon H.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2002, 06:21:57 AM »
Nice to see you post, Mr. Duffy.  It's been too long since we've spoken.

I like the part about the girls on horseback.  the course sounds like a nightmare.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2002, 01:26:25 PM »
Wait a minute, teenage girls on horseback with attitude and mesmerized Kangaroos, the hell with the golf. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2002, 05:13:34 PM »
Justin,

Norman was lined up to design a second 18, but I believe the deal has now been scrapped as his fee was considered too high.

You are right, Craig Parry has now come on board and is going to "fix up" the design flaws on some of the holes, according to my host at Hidden Valley.

I hope Parry knows a thing or two about design, as his job will not be easy.

The golf course is obviously a selling tool for a very large real estate development. The locals seem to love it, but there again, there is not one golf course in Central Victoria that could lay claim to being memorable.

This place is not my idea of a good golf course and from what I could determine, it was also badly managed.

The tee times were running 45 minute late and the Ambrose round took just on five hours, without once seeing a member of the professional's shop come out in a cart and hurry proceedings along.

The ex-policewoman running the place should tell you a lot about what is taking place there.

The second 18 may be designed by Parry, but nothing is definite as yet. or so I'm told. I think they will be watching what he does with the nightmare 18 that is already there before giving him the green light to proceed with a new 18.

The other name being mentioned is the ubiquitious TWP. It will be interesting to say the least to watch a hideous piece of non-golf country being turned into a silk purse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2002, 05:16:04 PM »
Justin,

Norman was lined up to design a second 18, but I believe the deal has now been scrapped as his fee was considered too high.

You are right, Craig Parry has now come on board and is going to "fix up" the design flaws on some of the holes, according to my host at Hidden Valley.

I hope Parry knows a thing or two about design, as his job will not be easy.

The golf course is obviously a selling tool for a very large real estate development. The locals seem to love it, but there again, there is not one golf course in Central Victoria that could lay claim to being memorable.

This place is not my idea of a good golf course and from what I could determine, it was also badly managed.

The tee times were running 45 minute late and the Ambrose round took just on five hours, without once seeing a member of the professional's shop come out in a cart and hurry proceedings along.

The ex-policewoman running the place should tell you a lot about what is taking place there.

The second 18 may be designed by Parry, but nothing is definite as yet. or so I'm told. I think they will be watching what he does with the nightmare 18 that is already there before giving him the green light to proceed with a new 18.

The other name being mentioned is the ubiquitious TWP. It will be interesting to say the least to watch a hideous piece of non-golf country being turned into a silk purse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny Goss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2002, 06:18:33 PM »
My sources tell me they will need to sell a lot more real estate before any further holes are built. Apparently they have only had enough money to put a watering system to the greens and tees.......the fairways have been put on hold until finances improve.

That was a great summary of your visit Mike. I'll know to steer clear of that part of Victoria!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doc Kildare

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2002, 06:45:54 PM »
Geez, cutting reports fella's.

Did Pacific Design do some work at Eagle Ridge down on the peninsula ?

Have these guys designed any other new 18 hole layouts ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2002, 06:53:45 PM »
You can just imagine the marketing pitch to prospective members going along the lines of "We've got Greg Norman to do a second course, which is going to start construction soon, so you had better get in quick or before you know it it'll be $20,000 a membership".  As if they didn't know what Greg Norman's fee was from the start.  You also know he would never discount his fee to do the project either, it's not like it would bring him a lot of kudos.  If it ever happens, I can't really imagine the latest Craig Parry design pulling in the masses, or the existing members being sold this pup being terribly happy, particularly when they try and exit their "investment".  I learnt a valuable lesson at Sanctuary Lakes to stay away from transferable golf course memberships being sold by real estate developers, but I won't elaborate too much because they have threatened to sue me for defamation in the past.

Danny
If you have to go up that way and just have to play golf, go to Heathcote.  It's a good, honest country track that has always been in great nick whenever I've visited.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2002, 12:04:00 AM »
The marketing for Hidden Valley has always seemed to emphasise the real estate, rather than the golf course.  They make it sound like housing with a golf course on the side, rather than the other way around.

This is in contrast to Sanctuary Lakes, where there was a big push on club memberships at the beginning, then they started with the real estate.

Can Justin give us a list of golf clubs in Victoria that he HASN'T been a member of at some stage? :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2002, 12:38:19 AM »
Chris
From what I've seen of the marketing, it has been nearly entirely based around the novelty factor of the island green on the par three 18th.  From what Mike had to say, it sounds like this has been a smart move.  

BTW Chris, there are 351 golf clubs affiliated with the VGA that I have not been a member of (out of 360)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2002, 12:48:14 AM »
Justin,

You have 351 to go then!

Don't understand the attraction of an island green like that - all it does it add to the cost of your round (for me the formula would be green fee + a sleeve of balls lost in the water).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2002, 04:30:55 AM »
Justin: Nothing worse than a developer singing that famous song - "Peggy Sue, I'll sue you" - and being off key. Please tell me about it over coffee tomorrow. :o

Mike: Thanks for the incisive review. After winning the comp of the day are you tempted to join this course? ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2002, 05:00:41 AM »
I don't know if people know this (or want to know this), but if you log onto the hidden valley website and fill in a few details, they will send you out a voucher for free golf for two people.  Just don't do what my friend did and give them all your phone numbers and tell them you are interested in a $70,000 corporate membership.

By the way, on the information they sent out, there was a plan of the housing estate and how it fitted in with the 36 hole golf course.  So no matter who "designs" the second 18, I suspect it has already been designed if you know what I mean.

So anyway, I have had my free golf voucher for a month  but havent used it yet. (Just waiting for winter when the rain and mist sets in to the valley for 4 months.)   If anyone is interested in going up for a game and a laugh, let me know.


By the way Mike, the par 3 9th hole looked interesting from the photo.  Is this the case or not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2002, 05:56:58 AM »
David
I tried to log into their website today and couldn't get connected.  I seem to remember the ninth hole being right next to the 18th, playing the same direction and being incredibly boring.  Although it was only a short hole, it was certainly a long walk by the time you walked around the water, along the road over the bridge and finally made it to the green. I'm sure it is fresher in Mike's mind though.  Who knows, maybe Craig Parry has fixed it up since then  :D.  

After reading Mike's review, I would hate to pay to play it, but if you've got free tickets I'd certainly be interested in heading up for a game.  It would just be a good idea to do it before it gets too wet, I grew up playing golf at Kilmore and know very well the exact type of clay Mike referred to.  Maybe Mike should send us his voucher and we'll redeem it for $100 worth of whatever golf balls he uses.  I'm sure we'll run into him somewhere.

Paul
Don't worry, I was ready to set some lawyers back on them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2002, 07:16:52 AM »
What I find more than confusing, on more than one occasion is the number of courses named Hidden Valley.

Theres the famous one (famous because of it's rep on this site). Then There's the one I've played in Roanoake VA. And now this one downunder and finally I have a local course with the same name.

It is this local course which has me scratching my head. By all first glances this place is a bowser, BUT... It is 18 holes built on 96 acres. It has shot values and undulations which aren't seen much in this country. It has whiskey runs that return to the clubhouse frequently and it is the only GC with a liquor license in the county. :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2002, 04:23:58 PM »
In fairness, I must say that hole nine, a short par three, was quite interesting. It is situated over the road from the island 18th.

It requires a 9 iron or thereabouts over quite a picuresque lake that has attracted ducks, swans and other species of water fowl.

The green is long running left to right. The day we played it, the pin placement was four metres from the front edge. We were told that many balls had found the H2O as they span off the green.

That being said, I felt it was one of the more interesting holes on the course.

However, for such a short hole, it is an almighty long walk from the tee to the green,necessitating going backwards, then around to the left, then well past the green, then back towards it.

Maybe they should have put in a pontoon bridge as they did with the 18th. It would certainly save time, which is a commodity clearly needed after taking five hours for a round of ambrose.

My host has generously agreed to take my voucher back, and he will redeem it for himself from the pro shop, agreeing to send me a cheque for the same amount.

He tells me he has read my report, and like Queen Victoria, he is not amused!!

However I did tell him as the round concluded that the design was terrible and that I  was of the opinion that he had made a bad investment, so my report should not have surprised.

If anyone is interested, my host has two attractive blocks for sale overlooking one of the back nine's fairways (around $150,000 each).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2002, 02:15:18 AM »
Just thought I should add that the info I have here for Hidden Valley is 7 Day membership $10,000 share and $1,100 a year or $50,000 for 100 years.  6 Day -$6,000 and $770 a year.   I also read somewhere that the area gets more rain and less sunshine than almost anywhere else in Victoria.  What a great place to put a golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2002, 02:48:09 AM »
Pacific Coast Design designed the esteemed Hidden Valley - but who are the individuals who direct this brilliant course architecture outfit?

By the way, on Monday I'm playing at Chirnside Park for the final of the Victorian Schools' Championship - from what I've been told the design varies from terrible to atrocious!  What should I believe?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

David_Elvins (Guest)

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2002, 06:06:40 AM »
Chris,

Vic schoolboys at Chirnside Park?  I remember when they used to be at RM.  What the hell happenned there?  Anyway, good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2002, 03:32:39 PM »
David,

I imagine that the VSSSA (Victorian Secondary School Sports Association) has no clout whatsoever.  Why would any decent club give their course to a group of hacks from all over the place on a Monday when they could be earning revenue from trade days?  I assume that the VSSSA don't have to pay!

It was going to be at Kew - which would have been relatively fantastic - but I got the phone call Tuesday to tell me it had changed.  Shame, because I usually play well at Kew.

RM?  If only......!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2002, 04:12:47 PM »
Chris,

Best of luck at Chirnside Park. It is very long, undulating, unimaginative and downright boring.

It was the subject of a Supreme Court case in the early 1970s, when the development company that built the houses on the surrounding estate didn't keep its promise to build a golf course.

The residents took the company to the Supreme Court, and an order was brought down against the company to build one, or face a hefty fine and loss of building licence.

So it proceeded with the court order in the cheapest possible way.

What you will see there Chris is the result of that court case and the parsimonious attitude of the construction company.

Best of luck, but I think you will be hard pressed to enjoy the layout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2002, 11:02:27 PM »
Mike,

This is beginning to sound like an example of a course that would have been better off not being built!, like you said about Hidden Valley.

I'm not going to pre-judge (although thats difficult to do when everyone has told me it's horrible!).  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NicP

Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2002, 01:10:53 AM »
Chris,

       I have a "black book" of goat tracks that I will never go back to ever ever, again. Chirnside is rated No.1!!! It's a day of school, that's it!! Play well.

Nic
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny Goss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2002, 04:13:41 AM »
Nic,

Well said. It's been a long time since I've been there and you are correct.......it's a goat track.  You may be better doing some study Chris   ;D

The way you were swinging at Ranfurlie you may have a chance! Good Luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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