[DMoriarty]

This from the Philadelphia Inquirer 7/3/1898.

[TEPaul]

"2. I also explained the absurdity of your claim that I needed Merion's or documents for my paper.  You guys didnt have the minutes until after my essay came out.   You didn't even have the November 1910 records until I sent them to Wayne.  So quit pretending that you did."



Finally you said something that is half true and half accurate, David Moriarty!

You are right, Wayne and I did not actually consider any MCC 1910 records until you sent them to Wayne. It's certainly not that he did not have them because he is one of Merion GC's primary historians who has helped update and prefect their archives.

We've told you numerous times what we began researching with Merion was William Flynn's connection and participation there. We've told you that numerous times but you obviously continue to ignore it because it doesn't suit your petty little vendetta.

Wayne has access to all Merion's archive material and most all of it is on my computer too because we have always worked together on this.

What you found was the so-called "Sayer's Scrapbook" at the Pennsylvania Historical Society. Do you deny that is what you found about Merion in 1910?" Merion and Wayne and me have had the "Sayer's scrapbook for many years, not the least reason being Sayers' significance to Merion and the fact his scrapbook has been in its archives for decades. In other words you found nothing more than we already had on Sayers and actually less (The Pennsylvania Historical Society has less on Sayer's than Merion and we know that because we poured through the Pennsylvania Historical Society in person years before you did it ONLINE!   

It is pretty comical the way some of you, particularly you and MacWood, think you find things that Merion has never been aware of. MacWood did that with his 2003 thread entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion?" Obviously he thought he found something they never knew and something that would perhaps change their history. What he did not know, though, is that had had the same article for nearly 100 years that he found recently. But there is no way he could've know that because, like you, he knows nothing about Merion or its archives and the rate you two are going neither one of you probably ever will.

BUT, the question is and the question always will be, HOW can you ever KNOW what Merion (or MCC) has unless you go to those clubs and look at their archives?. THAT is the central question, Moriarty, and I will always know you will continue to ignore it and avoid it for such obvious reasons----eg it will make you look as bad as you really are on this subject of Merion's history and your ridiculous essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion."


The fact is Wayne and its other historians did go to MCC and they found wonderful information that was not at Merion GC which completely trumped your ridiculous essay apparently because when you wrote it you had no idea it was there or existed at all.

That's not what I call a competent researcher/analyst/historian/writer----eg someone who purports to know something about a subject without ever going to the subject itself first. And not just that but someone who even tries to take credit for knowing something about material that was found by someone else you were never theretofore aware of.

And this is why it is important to stay after you to continue to expose you as the intellectual fraud you are and apparently always have been on this website.

Come on Moriarty, even a little argumentative, deflective, deceptive weasel like you should know you just can't deny THAT.

[TEPaul]

Yep, that red X is a pretty appropriate example of what you have found yourself about Merion's history.


And don't forget, you of course avoided my question of you to prove where Tolhurst said that MCCGA was a committee rather than an organization. So where did Tolhurst say that Moriarty? And if you can't cite where he said it then why did you make that statement on here? Was it just another lie you thought you could get away with if you weren't challenged?

I guess you forget, again, who you are dealing with here.

[Tom MacWood]

The MCCGA dates back until at least 7/3/1898. See reply 172.

[Tom MacWood]

"In 1909, the golfers of the Merion Cricket club formed the Merion Cricket GC Association to examine the problem presented by the Haskell ball, namely that it had made theri course obsolete."

Can we agree the portion underlined is incorrect? The Association dates back to at least 1898, and if your definition of formed is incorporated, that year is off as well.

[TEPaul]

"Can we agree the portion underlined is incorrect? The Association dates back to at least 1898, and if your definition of formed is incorporated, that year is off as well."



Tom MacWood;

We could certainly agree the portion underlined is incorrect if we aren't particularly interested in the details of the history of the MCCGA. But I am interested in the details and the history of the MCCGA so I think I will dig deeper into it. And I believe I know where to look which is probably the same place Tolhurst was looking when he said in his book that in 1909 Merion Cricket Club FORMED an ORGANIZATION called the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association. Maybe Merion and others had referred to golfers who played golf at Merion Cricket Club from 1896 on after Williams and Griscom and Thayer formed the Merion Golf Committee on November 20. 1895 to administer golf at Merion Cricket club but that may not have been the same thing as MCC formed as an organization in 1909 for other or perhaps additional purposes that became formally known at the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association. And of course we do know that in Dec. 1910 it became legally registered and incorporated as a second class Pennsylvania corporation known as the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association corporation. We know it became that at that point because it was about to finance the purchase of a major asset and hold it and lease it for the foreseeable future.

[mike_malone]

   How often does a written history get changed without conflict ? Unfortunately, I think the conflict is inevitable. Also, the parties involved usually despise each other . Those of us on the sidelines can only hope that the end result of a revised history is worth all the blood. I do think the early history of one of America's first great courses is worth some blood . I'm just glad it isn't mine.

[Mike Cirba]

Are we up to 1911 yet?

Tom MacWood...David still evidently believes that the finalized routing was completed by Nov 1910 by Macdonald, even without a shred of evidence that he did:  do you believe that as well, or do you have your own creation myth?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul

Wayne Morrison did not have the November documents or many other of the key documents.  And he didn't understand much of the information he did have.  I know this because I had to send them to him so that he could have them, and explain others to him.

Wayne Morrison did not have the minutes.    

Laughably, you thought all this information had been lost in a flood.

At the time my Essay came out you guys had nothing that would have helped or hurt my essay.  My information and understanding on the origins of East course was well beyond your information and understanding.    

So you need to drop the charade about how I needed you guys.

____________________________________________________________________

  How often does a written history get changed without conflict? Unfortunately, I think the conflict is inevitable. Also, the parties involved usually despise each other . Those of us on the sidelines can only hope that the end result of a revised history is worth all the blood. I do think the early history of one of America's first great courses is worth some blood . I'm just glad it isn't mine.

Not so on any account Mike.

There is generally an accepted and civil process within which such discourse takes place.  There is no place in that process for people that hide source material, people that constantly alter and manipulate their version of what cherry-picked portions the hidden source material actually says, people who mount public vendettas to smear others and their work without ever bothering to offer up any verifiable proof of their smears.

In other words it is a place where people like TEPaul have no place.    But then those there aren't necessarily interested in playing Pine Valley, so they don't mind sending jokers like him back to the playpen where he belongs.

___________________________________________________________________________

Mike Cirba,

You'll have to talk to Jim about when we get to 1911.  I've suggested we move on repeatedly.  He apprently isn't done talking about the MCCGA yet.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Then since we're still stuck in 1910, can you summarize for us all of the evidence that you believe points to CBM creating a final routing for the golf course between his one day site visit at Griscom's behest in June 1910 and a final routing by Nov 15th of that year.

We already know what the one day visit was about...we have his letter describing a sporty generic 6000 yard course and some agronomic concerns, but what other evidence is out there that leads you to believe he did anything else for Merion after then up to November?

Just the factual evidence please...thanks.

[DMoriarty]

Its all in the essay and the threads Mike.  Why don't you go back and read them.  They are pretty entertaining.  Especially your posts.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul
Wayne Morrison did not have the November documents or many other of the key documents.  And he didn't understand much of the information he did have.  I know this because I had to send them to him so that he could have them, and explain others to him.
Wayne Morrison did not have the minutes.    
Laughably, you thought all this information had been lost in a flood.
At the time my Essay came out you guys had nothing that would have helped or hurt my essay.  My information and understanding on the origins of East course was well beyond your information and understanding.    
So you need to drop the charade about how I needed you guys."




David Moriarty;

You can say Wayne Morrison did not have those November documents or other 1910 MCC documents that you had to write your essay, but what MCC documents are you referring to specifically that you had and that you think Wayne Morrison or Merion did not have or did not have easy access to at Merion GC's archives or MCC's archives? I submit you had what has always been referred to as the "Sayers Scrapbook." And I submit that you have already said on this website that you found it in digitized form at the Pennsylvania Historical Society in Philadelphia. You did not find it at MCC or Merion Golf Club because the fact is you have never seen there archives and consequently could have no knowledge of what is in them or not in them!

Even if you did not say that and/or Wayne did is that a true stateement-----eg that you found the so-called "Sayer's Scrapbook" ONLINE from the PA Historical Society or that you got them to mail you a copy of it, and that you did not actually go to the PA Historical Society to look at it and that you've never seen the MCC or Merion GC archives and could consequently not know what is in them or not in them?

And next we would be glad to tell you how long Merion and MCC have had those records in their archives. Edward Sayers was the long time secretary of MCC in those early years. He is the one who both wrote and kept those minutes. He would follow long-term president Allen Evans as the president of MCC. So of course those clubs had all that information in their archives from the day it was all compiled and Wayne had relatively easy access to all of it.

And we have also told you many times that before this subject came up on here it was not what we were concentrating on and researching about Merion. We were researching information on William Flynn's involvement with Merion which would come after 1910. We have told you that many times but of course you never acknowledge it because it makes our point about what we were doing and not yours about what we should have been doing. I believe the last person who carefully considered all that old material in the archives of both clubs was Desmond Tolhurst.

So are trying to make it look like you had something or found something that Merion or MCC never had or that you had it BEFORE they had it is then that is a complete fallacy on your part, if that is in fact what you are saying or implying on your post above.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I asked because I didn't see ANY factual evidence between July-Nov 1910 that could possibly lead you to the conclusion that CBM routed the course during that time; honestly, not a single fact that would drive to that as a reasonable conclusion.

If I missed any factual evidence to support his involvement, much less actually designing the course during that time period, please point me to specific facts that are in your essay because I really don't see any more evidence of CBM doing it than Tom Bendelow or Alex Findlay or HH Barker or even space aliens, so please show me some facts.

Thanks.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

You've told so many lies about Merion's records that you can't keep your story straight.

Ask Wayne whether he went to PA archives to photo and digitize the relevant portions of the Sayres scrapbook such as the Nov. 15 records, including the Board's "circular,"  the Lesley report to the board, the Connell letter, and the Barker letter discussing his early routing of Merion East.     You will find that it happened AFTER MY ESSAY.

I know this because Wayne had me send him all this information because even after my essay came out, he couldn't be bothered with immediately going and looking at the originals.

Or was that a lie on Wayne's part?  Which is it?   Did you guys have this stuff all along and you were just hiding the Barker letter, and the information on CBM's early involvement?  Like you are hiding the minutes now?

You cannot have it both ways.

Either you had that stuff and have been playing us for fools and hiding it for years.  Or you hadn't ever bothered to get it.  Which is it?  Are you guys dishonest or incompetent?   Or is it a bit of both?

[Mike Cirba]

By the way guys...can we end the stupid bickering over who had what evidence or records when??

I mean...who the f cares?   

Are we trying to figure out what happened or simply engaging in some ridiclously nerdy game of golf course research one-upsmanship??

And what's the prize if you win?  Who really cares??

Can we stick to the facts and drop the fighting about who located the evidence?

[DMoriarty]

By the way guys...can we end the stupid bickering over who had what evidence or records when??

I mean...who the f cares?  

Unfortunately Mike, TEPaul cares and cares very much.   He is not content to fraudulently manipulate Merion's history, he now seems intent on fraudulently manipulating my role in discovering the real history.

Even you must know that this is complete bullshit.

Which is it?   Did they have all those documents but were hiding them to mask Merion's real history?  Or did they not ever bother to actually get them even though they were right under their noses? Were they dishonest or incompetent?   

[TEPaul]

"Ask Wayne whether he went to PA archives to photo and digitize the relevant portions of the Sayres scrapbook such as the Nov. 15 records, including the Board's "circular,"  the Lesley report to the board, the Connell letter, and the Barker letter discussing his early routing of Merion East.     You will find that it happened AFTER MY ESSAY."


David Moriarty:

I will be sure to ask him that. Thanks for mentioning it. However, are you aware what material from those days of MCC were in MCC's archives that the Merion historians went to see and found after your essay came out? Did you find Macdonald's actual letter to the MCC "Search Committe" or was that the Merion historians who found it? You didn't realize it was even in there all these years did you? And it's too bad as well because if you'd actually seen what it actually says rather than just assuming what it might say you very well may not have even written that essay as you did.

[TEPaul]

Unfortunately Mike, TEPaul cares and cares very much.   He is not content to fraudulently manipulate Merion's history, he now seems intent on fraudulently manipulating my role in discovering the real history.

Even you must know that this is complete bullshit.





David Moriarty:

How exactly have I manipulated Merion's history. Is this that same claim you and MacWood made that I was 'altering original Merion documents?  

And it would be best if you answered Cirba's good question of this morning rather than trying to avoid them again by deflecting the discussion to me manipulating Merion's documents and history. But you can't do that can you?   

[DMoriarty]

More bullshit.

I was aware of what was in the MCC archives before my Essay came out.  Had you bothered to read Heilman you would have known what they had as well.  I tried but was not allowed to see the minutes, but in the course of my conversations with them I was told what they had.   You guys, on the other hand, could have gone over and had them pull it whenever you wanted, but you didn't bother.  Why would you when you thought you knew it all already?  

Again TEPaul,  at the time of my essay I had much better information and a much better understanding of that information than you guys.    Going to Merion wouldn't have changed a thing about my essay.    All it would have done is got you started on your witch hunt even before my essay came out.

You need quit saying otherwise, or I will have no choice but to continue to point out just how incompetent you guys really were.  

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Is this what this is really all about??

Nobody here was looking at the history of Merion before Flynn's involvement...why would they?

And I can tell you that if you had been given access to the MCC Minutes you would not have written the essay you did...are you saying if you saw the CBM letter from jul 1910, or the account of the work of the committee and CBM's help during spring 1911 that it wouldn't have materially changed your essay?

I'm sorry, but now I have to call BS...

[JESII]

David,

My intention on this thread is to discuss Tolhursts account with you and/or Tom. My motivation was initially based on his comment that your essay made Tolhursts look like a pathetic piece of fiction...I think that language is inflamatory and, not supportable with facts. I addressed my question (on the TEPaul's Purpose thread) to Tom and you jumped in with answers...and I think hashing out the individual points so far has illustrated that there's a wide scope of interpretation here.




To move on to the next section...I'll obviously concede the date of Wilson's trip.

What else in here is meaningfully inaccurate?

- In 1910, the Committee decided to send Hugh Wilson to Scotland and England to study their best courses and develop ideas for thr new course.

- Before he left, he visited the site of the NGLA, America's first modern golf course, then under constrcution in Southampton, NY.

- While there he discussed his itinerary with Charles B. Macdonald

- Macdonald had made a similar journey for the same purpose some eight years earlier.

- Wilson spent about seven months abroad, playing and studying course and sketching the features that struck him most favorably.

- When he returned, he carried a pile of notes as well as sheaves of sketches and surveyor's maps of outstanding holes and features.

- All of these avidly studied by the Committee.

- Sunningdale never had wickers!

[DMoriarty]

David,

Is this what this is really all about??

Nobody here was looking at the history of Merion before Flynn's involvement...why would they?

And I can tell you that if you had been given access to the MCC Minutes you would not have written the essay you did...are you saying if you saw the CBM letter from jul 1910, or the account of the work of the committee and CBM's help during spring 1911 that it wouldn't have materially changed your essay?

I'm sorry, but now I have to call BS...

Mike,

I hope you are calling Bullshit on yourself, and not me.

1.  TEPaul claims he had that material.  He is either delusional or lying.  
2.  TEPaul and Wayne held have held themselves out as experts on Merion for at least dozen years.
3.  They have claimed that they have scoured the earth searching for documents relating to the origins of Merion east, and that if any documents existed the would have brought them forward.

I am glad to see you agree with me though, that these jokers had none of this stuff.

My point is that these jokers couldn't have given me access to the Minutes, because they had never bothered to get them.

From what has leaked out about the minutes, there is a very good chance that my essay would have left all speculation out of whether CBM was the primary driving force behind the initial design of Merion East.  Because from what I can glean, those minutes leave little doubt that he was.

As for the CBM letter, it would have changed one section of my essay slightly, and that is about it.  If you really understood my essay, you'd understand why that is.  

[DMoriarty]

David,

My intention on this thread is to discuss Tolhursts account with you and/or Tom. My motivation was initially based on his comment that your essay made Tolhursts look like a pathetic piece of fiction...I think that language is inflamatory and, not supportable with facts. I addressed my question (on the TEPaul's Purpose thread) to Tom and you jumped in with answers...and I think hashing out the individual points so far has illustrated that there's a wide scope of interpretation here.

I did jump in, but if you'd like me to stay out if it, I'd be glad to.  That is your call.  

I don't think there is a wide scope of interpretation?  So far as I can tell you aren't really interpreting anything, just speculating about what else might be out there.   For example, you reject the board's stated reason for the move, but do so without anything indicating anything to the contrary.  

Why not just ask TEPaul if the minutes mention any other reasons?  I think you know that if there were any, he'd have already mentioned them.

Just what is it that you think is open to a wide interpretation?

To move on to the next section...I'll obviously concede the date of Wilson's trip.

What else in here is meaningfully inaccurate?

I'll have to deal with that later.   I am out of time today.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I'm not interested in the least about who had what when.

That may be a priority to you but to me that just smacks of this whole idea of tryong to embarrass Tom and Wayne in their own backyards, which I find unsavory and which I previously apologized to you for accusing you of...I'd prefer to think I was wrong but you're not making my apology look very justified if you insist on continuing down that line.

I'd rather we get back to facts about the golf course.

Are you going to answer my question about verifiable facts pointing to CBMs involvement at any level in the second half of 1910 or not?

[TEPaul]

"I tried but was not allowed to see the minutes, but in the course of my conversations with them I was told what they had."



David Moriarty:


Is that right? You were not allowed to see the minutes? Would you mind explaining that to us? Were you denied access to Merion's archives or was it just a matter of the fact you were not willing to follow the process and protocol they asked you to follow; the very same one we all have to follow? You probably just asked them to send things to you as MacWood did. That is not their policy for anyone and there's no reason to make some exception with you two.

And now, why don't you begin dealing with Cirba's and Sullivan's good questions to you and stop trying to divert attention from them by continuously criticizing me or me and Wayne or the both of us and Merion on post after post?  

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