[Dave Falkner]

Played 36 at yale on thurs  all I can say is WOW! 

I thought 18 was a fantastic hole, so I am playing this morning and a guy in the foursome did his residency there, his idea was "they should bulldoze that hill on the left and then it would be a good  hole

I thought it was one of the best 3 shotters I ever played 

what are some other great ones and where do folks  think it ranks?

[Chuck Brown]

Played 36 at yale on thurs  all I can say is WOW! 

I thought 18 was a fantastic hole, so I am playing this morning and a guy in the foursome did his residency there, his idea was "they should bulldoze that hill on the left and then it would be a good  hole

I thought it was one of the best 3 shotters I ever played 

what are some other great ones and where do folks  think it ranks?

My two absolute and overwhleming opinions after I played Yale, some 20 years ago:
1.  It was an amazing course; it was my first real-life introduction to Macdonald and Raynor.  I loved it.
2.  The 18th was inexplicable; I had the distinct impression that Macdonald and Raynor simply stopped work and took the train back to Manahattan after they finished 17.  What were they thinking?  What is anybody supposed to do on that hole?

I just bought George Bahto's remarkable landmark book.  I expect I'll find the answer in there.

[Tom Dunne]

Yeah, and I suppose the fourth at Lahinch would be improved if they just bulldozed away the Klondyke dune. Some people...

In my mind there's no doubt the 18th at Yale is a great hole. After everything you've experienced in the round to that point, the course rears back and throws one last haymaker in the form of the most obstreperous feature on the property. The more you play the course, the more crazy outcomes you see from golfers trying to deal with that mountain.

In my experience, people deal with the hole very differently depending on whether or not they hit a good drive. From the regular tees, a lot of decent shots wind up in the throat of the fairway on an upslope, and from there people will try to bust a long iron or hybrid over the mountain. This is very doable, but unless that second shot is pounded you wind up not making it all the way to the flat and you have a pitching wedge from a downhill-sidehill lie. The "low road" off to the right is actually kind of underrated in the sense that you get an even stance and a decent angle in exchange for a longer third shot. But those who hit good drives don't usually play out that way--the optics are unsettling as you're playing over a corner of the mountain and toward the trouble on the right.

There's no question the 18th at Yale means to kick your teeth in. But if you're a flexible thinker you can come up with strategies on the fly to play it well.

[Mike_Cirba]

The 18th at Yale is one of the most inexplicable, indecipherable, and indescribable holes in golf.

It is also among the Top 10 finsihing holes I've ever played.

[Tim Gavrich]

I hope to get to play it for the first time in a long time this August 25th in the CT State Fourball.  I've not played Yale since they removed all the trees around 18 and really restored the two-fairway option on the second shot.  I have heard nothing but rave reviews about what Superintendent/Greenskeeper/Agronomist/Wizard Scott Ramsay has done with the place.  He's also a really nice guy.

People: savor every second at Yale!!!

[Steve Salmen]

Perhaps someone can confirm what I heard about Yale.  Apparently the course budget in the mid 1920s was in the range of $400,000.  They apparently ran out of money before they could make the 18th how they wanted.  Is there any truth in this?  It makes sense to me.  Personally,  I did not care for the tee shot.  I did not really know where to aim or what club to hit.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Steve

People dredge that one up all the time.  The answer is no.  There was, however, a funding scandal of sorts and they stopped after spending something like $475,000.  No one knows the exact amount but that's the neighborhood.  The reason the falsehood arises is because this set-to effectively killed the chances of building the second planned 18.

The 18th is as designed by Raynor and CBM.  When Weiskopf was invited to make suggestions and possibly earn a commission, reputedly he said the first thing he would do is blow up 18.  Thankfully, his services were not retained.

Mark

[Mike Sweeney]

The answer is no.  There was, however, a funding scandal of sorts and they stopped after spending something like $475,000.  No one knows the exact amount but that's the neighborhood.  The reason the falsehood arises is because this set-to effectively killed the chances of building the second planned 18.

The 18th is as designed by Raynor and CBM. 

Just as a follow-up, according to the "Golf at Yale" book by Godley and Kelly, Raynor died before the course opened and Banks finished things up. Banks wrote an extensive Hole by Hole description of the course in 1925 and it seems clear to me that the 18th is laid out as planned.

[Jim Nugent]

A question not just about the 18th, but the whole course.  I'm pretty sure the Yale Golf Committee, that was in charge of building the course, says Raynor was designer and builder, and that Macdonald was a consultant.  But some other sources say CBM designed Yale. 

Exactly what did CBM do at Yale?  How involved did he get?  Is Yale a farily equal corroboration, or did mostly one of the two men design it? 

[mike_malone]

 How can you not like the chance that your ball will either be on the high ground or have tumbled down ? How can you not appeciate the uncommon approach to a green well below you?

[John Foley]

There is alot of great writing about Yale from back in the early days of GCA. Much of it from the maintenance perspective, but still tons of great architecture discussion.

[Will Smith]

The eighteenth has been greatly improved by the recent tree removal and the running of the fairway up the hill in the first landing area. I have rarely come across a hole that causes as much thought, debate on the tee, and ultimately confusion. I used to hate it, but now I love it.

There are now options on both the tee ball and second shots. Hard to ask anything more from a par-five or a finishing hole.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pictures?

[Kalen Braley]

  Pictures?

While I haven't played it...I think this is the hole based on the descriptions I've read.  The aerial would seem to do zero justice to how the contouring makes its a trippy hole.

[Mike Sweeney]

The fairway on the right 2nd shot landing area is getting wider and wider day by day.

[Mark Bourgeois]

A question not just about the 18th, but the whole course.  I'm pretty sure the Yale Golf Committee, that was in charge of building the course, says Raynor was designer and builder, and that Macdonald was a consultant.  But some other sources say CBM designed Yale. 

Exactly what did CBM do at Yale?  How involved did he get?  Is Yale a farily equal corroboration, or did mostly one of the two men design it? 

Jim, as I understand it, Macdonald got the commission and Raynor handled the design, although I am not sure anyone really knows who did exactly what and how much.  Macdonald was retired, the Committee called on him, he came out for a look at the property.  He was going to turn them down but in an interview by Kelly and Godley Macdonald's niece (or some relation like that) said he found a "seam of sand" on the property.  This seam led him to change his mind and he said yes.  So the big decisions were his.

I think he stipulated that the design would be by Raynor.  So perhaps the nod should go to Raynor.

But it seems to be the two should share credit, not just because Macdonald won the commission but because the intellectual capital, i.e., those "ideal" holes, belonged to him and because Raynor undoubtedly ran everything by Mac for approval.

Mark

[Dan_Callahan]

Like many others, I hated the 18th when I first played it, but that was long before the improvements of the last few years. I used to play Yale frequently, and I had no idea that an alternate fairway to the lower right even existed. It was so overgrown and obstructed that it was almost indistinguishable from the rough. I only discovered it after hitting a high flare for a second shot, expected my ball to be lost in the woods, and found it sitting in the middle of a mysterious fairway. When I played it last year, I was blown away with what the tree clearing has done. The lower fairway is now a viable option and offers a much more level lie for the third; it also gives greater margin for error on the second shot.

The clearing of the mound that fronts the tee should not be understated as well. In the past, you stood on that tee with absolutely no idea what was going on -- more so than any other course I've ever played. As trees have come off the mound, it has opened up the possibility of a straight tee shot rather than a 200-yard shot out to the left, which then leaves a very awkward angle for the second.

I am now a big fan of the 18th. It isn't my favorite hole on the course, but it is certainly unique and memorable in a positive way (finally!).

[Tim Bert]

  Pictures?

Fairway



Looking back from the green

[Jim Nugent]

A question not just about the 18th, but the whole course.  I'm pretty sure the Yale Golf Committee, that was in charge of building the course, says Raynor was designer and builder, and that Macdonald was a consultant.  But some other sources say CBM designed Yale. 

Exactly what did CBM do at Yale?  How involved did he get?  Is Yale a farily equal corroboration, or did mostly one of the two men design it? 

Jim, as I understand it, Macdonald got the commission and Raynor handled the design, although I am not sure anyone really knows who did exactly what and how much.  Macdonald was retired, the Committee called on him, he came out for a look at the property.  He was going to turn them down but in an interview by Kelly and Godley Macdonald's niece (or some relation like that) said he found a "seam of sand" on the property.  This seam led him to change his mind and he said yes.  So the big decisions were his.

I think he stipulated that the design would be by Raynor.  So perhaps the nod should go to Raynor.

But it seems to be the two should share credit, not just because Macdonald won the commission but because the intellectual capital, i.e., those "ideal" holes, belonged to him and because Raynor undoubtedly ran everything by Mac for approval.

Mark

Everything you said makes sense.  I also recall what Ran says in his Yale profile:

"However, to be clear, it is Raynor and not Macdonald that deserves the credit for the design at Yale. As proof,George Bahto, the world’s leading Macdonald/Raynor historian,frequently points to an article from Charles ‘Steam Shovel’ Banks, who worked on the Yale construction team. The article appeared in an Alumnae Bulletin in 1929 where Banks wrote that Raynor deserved credit for ‘what is today considered by many to be the outstanding inland golf course of America.’ Banks went on, ‘Mr. Macdonald, who served on the advisory committee, was familiar with the plans from the outset, but Mr. Raynor was the real genius of this masterpiece, who made the layout, designed the greens, and gave the work of construction his supervision from start to finish.’"

[Mike Sweeney]

Jim,

Yes but there is no way that Raynor, a Princeton engineer, gets the job at Yale without CB. Yale and Princeton were dominating college golf during this era. If CB had said no, I am guessing they would have gone to others with Yale legacy.

Year, Team Champion, Individual Champion and School

1897   Yale   Louis Bayard Jr.   Princeton
1898 (s)   Harvard   John Reid Jr.   Yale
1898 (f)   Yale   James Curtis   Harvard
1899   Harvard   Percy Pyne   Princeton
1901   Harvard   Halstead Lindsley   Harvard
1902 (s)   Yale   Charles Hitchcock Jr.   Yale
1902 (f)   Harvard   Chandler Egan   Harvard
1903   Harvard   F.O. Reinhart   Princeton
1904   Harvard   A.L. White   Harvard
1905   Yale   Robert Abbott   Yale
1906   Yale   W.E. Clow Jr.   Yale
1907   Yale   Ellis Knowles   Yale
1908   Yale   H.H. Wilder   Harvard
1909   Yale   Albert Seckel   Princeton
1910   Yale   Robert Hunter   Yale
1911   Yale   George Stanley   Yale
1912   Yale   F.C. Davison   Harvard
1913   Yale   Nathaniel Wheeler   Yale
1914   Princeton   Edward Allis   Harvard
1915   Yale   Francis Blossom   Yale
1916   Princeton   J.W. Hubbell   Harvard
1919   Princeton   A.L. Walker Jr.   Columbia
1920   Princeton   Jess Sweetster   Yale
1921   Dartmouth   Simpson Dean   Princeton
1922   Princeton   Pollack Boyd   Dartmouth
1923   Princeton   Dexter Cummings   Yale
1924   Yale   Dexter Cummings   Yale
1925   Yale   Fred Lamprecht   Tulane
1926   Yale   Fred Lamprecht   Tulane
1927   Princeton   Watts Gunn   Georgia Tech
1928   Princeton   Maurice McCarthy   Georgetown
1929   Princeton   Tom Aycock   Yale
1930   Princeton   G.T. Dunlap   Princeton
1931   Yale   G.T. Dunlap   Princeton
1932   Yale   J.W. Fischer   Michigan
1933   Yale   Walter Emery   Oklahoma

[Mark Bourgeois]

A Gordian knot.  Maybe credit it Hollywood style: "By Seth Raynor, with CB Macdonald and C Banks."

Mike, Yale shares the NCAA record for most-consecutive national titles (with Iowa's wrestling team). And you're probably right, the university wouldn't have gone with Raynor.  Macdonald probably was lucky to get the job himself; the university is notorious for hiring only graduates for these sorts of things.

Mark

[Mike Sweeney]

  Macdonald probably was lucky to get the job himself;

Based on published reports about CB, I am guessing that CB saw it differently than Yale!  Perhaps he was so exhausted from all his trips to Ardmore, PA that he just wanted young Seth to take the lead.

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