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THuckaby2

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2002, 09:07:39 AM »
Scott, do you REALLY want to get in the middle of this never-ending war?

Just to answer your questions:

a) private club golf sucks dollar-wise on both ends of the state.  Oh yes, our situation near Silicon Valley is brutal, but it's not like they have any deals down in Smogland.

b) cost of living is the same all over CA

c) our traffic exists, but it PALES compared to the hell on earth that SoCal is in that respect.

d) none of us live in SF - we go there to visit, as does everyone from SoCal.

I've lived 18 years in SoCal, 20 in NorCal.  I believe I have a unique perspective on this.

But keeping this to architecture, I will say this:  each end of the state has its gems, but we are indeed envious of both Barona and Rustic.  They are killing us on the new ones....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2002, 09:52:28 AM »
So many interesting comments, thanks to all who attended for taking the time to come see the course and for giving it so much thought. The positives are wonderful to read, particularly seeing the FUN word in caps, since that is the goal isn't it? But the criticism is important because we know there are elements in need of tweaking and the insights gleaned from Sunday and these posts is of great help.

Just a few comments/responses, and I'm sure Gil will chime in when he gets back in town:

Ran,
Glad you liked the second on #1, it's a favorite of mine and of course as you can testify from having seen the site prior to golf, everything there is natural except for the bump left of the green to provide a subtle penalty for bailing out. There were times I could swear that green site was an abandoned hole! We're going to do some subtle work to try and make the hazard borders a bit more noticeable (hopefully to add to the fun of playing the shot, and to reduce the number of people distracted by the lack of visibility.)

Dan,
Those are very kind comments about the routing, thanks, I'm sure Gil will agree, you are putting the course in some pretty amazing company! It's neat to hear you preferred the front nine routing, most won't because it's not as separated and we've always wondered about its contrast with the back, but I've felt the front nine holes would be more fun to play, and the tighter out and back setup would accentuate the beauty and scale of the back nine land. What's even more exciting is to see how the connected holes at 2 and 5 are working and not slowing down play. Actually, speed of play has been UNBELIEVABLY good. It must be the ten minute tee time spacing and course width?

David M. and Tom Paul,
Interesting discussion on 3 and 12, it was total coincidence that they fall at the same point on each of the nines. I have played both several times, and can't see the similarities on the drives, actually, I'd counter they are quite different because of what the green/hole locations are dictating. I'm with Ran that 12 might benefit from tenth at Riv bunkering, or really might not, the big open field nature of it is fun and a little deceptive, time will tell. I'm still not sure if the options we were going for on 3 work, and I'm still not sure how to play 12, because as Geoff, Mike and Brad can attest, I played 12 Sunday with them in a way I never imagined: drive at the green, lofted sand wedge second to the upper hole, but the wind was so strong that it forced that strategy and made for a fun decision making process on the second shot.

David Kelly and JohnV,
As you guessed, your different views on playing 7 are just what we had in mind. It's really a matter of preference, and then executing the shots. So whichever way you want, go for it. The theory with the back left hole location was that a lay-up was actually going to provide a better angle/view, but again, I could see where playing to the alternate right fairway offers a great chance to use the backstop to nestle a ball into that pin. And JohnV, 16 green is easy to hit, just land it short and let it roll up!

Geoff,
Interesting insights, I'm not surprised that you like 11, the green was Gil's attempt at a Raynor-like ridge, I think he pulled it off beautifully, glad you agree. A note on 6, I finally hit the shot that lands well short and rolls up through the swale and onto the green, it was pretty neat. It definitely can be done, just a matter of placing your tee shot and turning over a shot, which is hard to do with the hazard left. It's probably a better hole for right handers in this respect. :)

Mike C,
Thanks for all the kind comments and especially the things you'd like to see worked on. We talked about 10 during the round and I think that will take the focus of changes/restoration of lost waste area over #9, as we feel pretty comfortable with it for now, mostly because of the fairway contours. I would agree that the concept for the course would be a nicer example to follow not just for public golf, but also for a private course. As for the grassing, as much as I hate the rye, it is still providing a lot of roll, you saw it without a few days of cutting, which probably didn't help, but the soil drains so well that the ball still runs. The transition between rye fairway and bent approach will soften in appearance in time (hopefully). And no disagreement here on the cart paths. What a waste of several hundred thousand dollars, I still hardly ever see carts on them! Whenever they finally spray the concrete with iron, hopefully they'll become less of an annoyance on holes like 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 16.
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2002, 04:37:00 PM »
Baby Doy:

If you're old enough to drive a car I wouldn't bother waiting a month to make the trip from NorCal to SoCal to play Rustic Canyon!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave Wilber

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2002, 10:39:04 PM »
I heard the turf was pretty good there.... :)

Hats off to Jeff Hicks, Super at Rustic Canyon. He told me on the phone that things are looking good. They didn't go for my Full Monty traditional grassing spec...but did a nice job of working with the alternates.

I'm looking forward to getting down there. It is a curse to do what I do for construction and then not go back for a long time after.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2002, 06:08:17 AM »
Although the rye grass fairways were not super fast, they did provide the tight lies you need to play the low shots this course demands. If it were grassed with fluffy bermuda like every other So. Cal. course, these shots would be harder to pull off. The retention of the natural fairway contours makes playing off the slopes a joy, not near as hard as the drastic ones on encountered on a "shaped" course. I was particularly impressed with the thought that needs to be given to the second shots on the par 5 holes. This is a testament to the skill of these three gentlemen. Ditto the similarity to the greens of TOC. Many players indicated that they struck the ball well enough to score, but were thwarted by these vexing green complexes. Great job guys!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

THuckaby2

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2002, 07:29:53 AM »

Quote
Baby Doy:

If you're old enough to drive a car I wouldn't bother waiting a month to make the trip from NorCal to SoCal to play Rustic Canyon!

I do have my license (barely) Mr. Doyen.  I just also have a wife and two kids who will not look kindly on another day away.

I'll be there June 11.  Damn!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2002, 07:32:31 AM »
Tom I --

Re: "baby doy" Tom IV.

I think I prefer the sound of "boy doy."

 :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

GeoffreyC

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2002, 06:58:54 PM »
Here are a few photos

these are the back bunkers on #3.


This is the consequence of a poorly judged layup on #10.  However, the player hit a remarkable recovery for a realistic birdie opportunity.  He missed  :'(



This is an image from the left of the 13th green. Note that the layup on this par 5 really must be to the correct side of the fairway for a straightforward 3rd shot to the days pin location.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2002, 12:18:25 AM »
Damn...look at that setup on the guy in the second picture.

Back straight, hands low, steely look of determination on his face...

Geoffrey...If I recall correctly, I sailed that one long and right (which no doubt was attributable to where the hell I was aimed!!), but I'll accept your version nonetheless. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2002, 04:03:43 AM »
Dan Kelly:

I like "Boy Doy" too but he just became a Doy so let's give "Baby Doy" a little more time to mature before we call him "Boy Doy".

Pete L:

I really like much of what you wrote about the fairway contours of Rustic and how they used natural ground mostly, or at least subtle "work-ups" on natural contour instead of dramatically shaping it like some other courses. And also your reference to similarities to the greens of TOC. Those observations are bound to make the designers very happy.

But I like your observation about the quality of the second shots on Rustic's par 5s even more. I never really thought about it before but the quality of the "second shot" on par 5s might just be considered the meat or essence of par 5s generally speaking, don't you think? Really interesting choices and consequences on the second shot on par 5s could probably be looked at basically as the "linchpin" that the entire concept of the par 5 hangs on, in fact! Very good observation!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Favorite features at Rustic Canyon?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2002, 10:36:33 AM »
PeteL,
That's great you noticed the importance placed on the second shots on the par-5's, we tried for that and I wasn't sure how obvious it would be the first few times around to players, or if would work that way. 13 is the most "obvious" in terms of noticing the hole location, but 9 and 10 were meant to have their own kind of 2nd shot emphasis too. 9, to avoid the blind bunker (well, blind from the right/safe side of the fairway) and position yourself for the best angle to the hole location, which could be anywhere in a 100 yard area I think depending on the hole location. And 10, to position yourself as far right as possible for a better view into the green (again, a 100+yard area to lay up in, but as far right is so much better for all pins). The latter two holes are a bit more subtle than 13, and some may not feel the risks of placing in certain spots are worth the reward, but so far I've found huge rewards when taking a bigger chance on the second shots.

Either way, I think the second shot on most par-5's is pretty dull, which is why we put an emphasis on them. Gil has done it really well on all of his par-5's, particularly Capstone's three which are outstanding (I still think 17 at Inniscrone and 17 at Inniscrone would be better appreciated if they were short par-5's, but Gil's probably tired of hearing me say that!).

I believe that by making the par-5 second shot the "linchpin," that puts added pressure on the tee shot. And if the second isn't pulled off, then the third should become a real challenge. I think this is where I find #11 at Riviera so incredibly tough/fun and underrated or maybe misunderstood. The tee shot gets tougher because the key to the hole is hitting a solid second shot, not so much the third shot. If you don't get over the barranca in two and in a good position to approach the green, birdie and par are out of reach. It takes time to really appreciate this even though it's so obvious, and over time, puts a lot of pressure on the tee shot.
G
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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