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Will MacEwen

Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« on: July 04, 2009, 10:40:59 PM »
http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1908667,00.html

I'm not surprised Tiger the player hasn't played them, but should Tiger the architect be so forthcoming?
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JWinick

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Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 10:44:43 PM »
Tiger the designer is such a small part of Tiger Woods enterprises that it isn't a priority.   He will probably make 3 trips to any course he "designs."  When his career is over, maybe he'll get more into it.  
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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 12:29:32 AM »
I asked him at Oakmont what he saw there architecturally that he would use in building his courses, and he replied, "absolutely nothing."  When I asked why, he said, "it'd be so hard no one would want to play it."
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John Moore II

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 12:36:03 AM »
I mean, its easy to figure out why he hasn't played them. I mean, he plays on the tour 20ish weeks a year, plus travel. He rarely plays a tournament on South Florida (and used to live in Orlando, no short drive) and I am not sure if he has ever played a tournament near Philly. It may just be that with the way he practices and the events he plays, and his corporate committments, he simply doens't have time to go wandering off to play other courses.

Ask him if he's played Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Shadow Creek. I'd be he hasn't. He practices at home and goes to events.  I just wonder where he will join to practice in Jupiter, I'm sure Jupiter Hills would love to have him.
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Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 01:04:26 AM »
John,

Last I heard was Tiger shot 60 at Shadow Creek his only play.

Jordan
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John Moore II

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 01:53:46 AM »
Quote from: Jordan Wall on July 05, 2009, 01:04:26 AM
John,

Last I heard was Tiger shot 60 at Shadow Creek his only play.

Jordan

Perhaps he did, I do not know. I only mentioned Shadow Creek because its somewhat far away from any tour stop he regularly plays, so far as I can recall.
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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 02:27:36 AM »
Come on guys, are you saying Tiger Woods hasn't played enough great golf courses? Seriously?
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Mark_F

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 03:00:39 AM »
Quote from: Matt_Cohn on July 05, 2009, 02:27:36 AM
Come on guys, are you saying Tiger Woods hasn't played enough great golf courses? Seriously?

Surely it's somewhat irrelevant how many great courses he has played. 

I am sure Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson and Player have played many more than he has.
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Anthony Gray

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 08:17:28 AM »


  Didn't Jack play Pine Valley on his honeymoon while his wife waited uotside the gate?

  Anthony

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Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 08:53:44 AM »
Easily dismissing everything about Oakmont in one sentence isn't the right answer IMHO - there has to be a least ONE thing there to take-away...there's at least one thing from EVERYWHERE to take away -- either a DO or a DON'T. 

So I'll go out on a limb and make a really broad over-generalization: it's really, really hard to be The Best in any given field; it's damn near impossible to be The Best at two.  Therefore, being able to hit the little white pill straight doesn't mean you're a natural gca. 
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 09:05:42 AM »
Tiger did shoot 60 @ SC beating phil's 62. The amazing part. .. He bogied the first. This was pre recent changes.  As proven daily its not how many experiences but how you get through them.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 09:12:29 AM »
Quote from: Anthony Gray on July 05, 2009, 08:17:28 AM


  Didn't Jack play Pine Valley on his honeymoon while his wife waited uotside the gate?

  Anthony



Yes...I fear the current generation of athletes, not just golfers, is rather self absorbed.  History of their respective sport, and in this case great historical courses, is not necessarily of high interest.  What matters is money.  Maybe I'm showing my age, but I believe that previous eras in all sports had a better 'feel' for their sport and its  history.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 09:27:42 AM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on July 05, 2009, 09:05:42 AM
Tiger did shoot 60 @ SC beating phil's 62. The amazing part. .. He bogied the first. This was pre recent changes.  As proven daily its not how many experiences but how you get through them.

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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 09:59:03 AM »
Famous designer???? has anyone played one of his courses.....maybe famous golfer but not famous designer yet..... ;D ;D
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Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2009, 11:36:11 AM »
He has played the following:

Shinnecock
Augusta National
Pebble Beach
Oakmont
Olympic Club
San Francisco
St Andrews
Muirfield
Riviera
Royal County Down

To name a few...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 11:39:44 AM by Paul Jones »
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Paul Jones
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 11:54:12 AM »
Actually that was the only time Nicklaus ever visited Pine Valley ... fifty years ago this summer.

I am not surprised a bit that Tiger hasn't gotten "everywhere" yet, he's still young, and he keeps a pretty busy schedule.  I know for certain he hasn't been to Ballyneal or Sand Hills yet, but neither has Nicklaus or Palmer or Player.
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 12:14:17 PM »
These guys are businessmen, and their business is to play golf. Their office is the golf course, and I think it would be natural to want to get away from the office when they don't have to be there. They'd rather ski or go fishing.

Once in a while you get a Dana Quigley, who'd play every day if he could, or a Crenshaw, who is drawn to great courses and the game's history. I think they are rare exceptions.

I, too, wish Tiger and the other player-designers would visit Seminole and Pine Valley, but I think there are enough outstanding golf course architects who will make pilgrimages to those shrines that we don't need to worry much if Tiger doesn't.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 12:34:58 PM by Rick Shefchik »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2009, 01:28:00 PM »
The flip side is that Tiger has played Shinney (and a whole bunch of other special courses) under conditions no one on here ever will.

If you think playing one of these special courses in a recreational round or club tourney can compare, I respectfully submit you are kidding yourself.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2009, 02:28:33 PM »
George:

I can't believe that you, of all people, buy that b.s. line.  You must agree with Gary Player then, that only a championship player is really qualified to design courses.
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2009, 02:53:27 PM »
Tom, I think you are reading too much into my post. I am in now way saying it qualifies him as designer, I am simply saying that his experiences under the most extreme conditions possible are in no way comparable to the overwhelming majority of posters'.

Additionally, I will add that a high handicapper might well learn more from playing a not-as-highly regarded course than Tiger may learn from playing Shinney or TOC under the toughest conditions.

To sum up, it's not the courses that matter, it's the golfer.

There are a lot of people who are wonderful at identifying problems in the world. Few are capable of understanding the solutions.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2009, 03:54:22 PM »
Jon, It's a bitch getting old. Hitting it into the water is what I now remember being told.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2009, 10:03:12 PM »
Until he proposes a waterfall at the 13th green at Augusta or something, Tiger can do pretty much what he pleases in the golf world.  He's earned it.  I don't fault him for never seeing those course.  And I even understand why he's not sorry for not seeing them. Publicly we all need to say a big thank you to Tiger for how much he's grown the game in the past decade.

But I don't think he knows didly for design compared to the other 99% of designers out there.  And I certainly don't think he makes a good architect because of what he's played.  To hypothesize that he is "capable of understanding the solutions" because he is a great golfer is rubbish.  In fact, I think it makes him far less likely to identify solutions for the majority of those that will play his courses.
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Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 11:36:05 PM »
I find it hard to believe he hasn't played Seminole yet given the proximately to his new house.  With that said, I know he has played Waterville (po-poed by many on this board) and European Club in the late 90s.  He and Duval, Stewart, and O'Mera played the day before I did as they were heading into the British...

Wonder if he ever made over to NGLA when he was at Shinnecock?
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Richard Choi

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Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 01:43:39 AM »
Jack stated in 2003 that he has not played Pine Valley in 42 years, so that would make it 48 years since he has played it. He said he never played it again once he turned pro. I highly doubt that just playing Pine Valley once would have influenced his design philosophy much, so Tiger is not in some lonely position.

It is most likely that Pine Valley didn't extend invitiations to Tiger Woods to play the course when he was still young, and once he turned pro he saw no need to go to a place that didn't exactly roll out the welcome wagon.

With the schedule that he has, I wouldn't blame him...

Let me turn the question around. Are the most exclusive golf clubs worth going for someone like Tiger when they don't go out of their way to make sure that all top juniors get a chance to play there while they are still forming their golf brains?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 01:45:37 AM by Richard Choi »
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Sam Maryland

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2009, 02:32:08 AM »
There was recently a thread about "must play AP Design courses"...there wasn't a lot of conviction about many, if any.

While we don't have anything to go on at this point, wonder what the chances are that 20 years from now there's nothing much of note on the "Tiger Woods Must Play List"??

Hell, I wonder how long it will be until he completes a course.  Looks like almost everything he's involved with is off the tracks.
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