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BCyrgalis

Appleby U.S. Open quote
« on: June 17, 2009, 02:10:33 PM »
So, I got this, exclusively, from Stewart Abbleby yesterday at the Open:

"I think the day of [the USGA] making stupid mistakes are just about over.”

He was talking about the course, and how it's set up, and how it is one of his favorite courses in the U.S.  Now, I'm a huge proponent of the way Mike Davis sets up a course over the way Tom Meeks did.  Davis makes it fairer and a better challenge to determine the best player in the field that week.  Meeks just made it hard as holy hell to play.  But that's just my preference, and I don't think the way Meeks worked was wrong.

I guess what I'm asking is: Was Appleby right?  Are the days of a U.S. Open course getting out of hand gone?  Or is there still an penchant to trick up the course just enough to make it the hardest test - fair or unfair - in golf? 

And if so, is there a little bit of you, as a golf fan, that will miss the days of guys coming off a U.S. Open course and just bitching and whining about how hard it is?  That, followed by imagining the USGA guys with those rye, deadpan little smiles in the back office, knowing they've accomplished what they set out to do.  The U.S. Open used to be torture, and will that never happen again?



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 02:45:04 PM »
Oakmont was damned close to torture, but that's just the nature of the place, I don't think it had much to do with set-up.

The PGA came closer to making a set-up mistake than the USGA has in a while, at Oakland Hills last year.  If it hadn't rained on the weekend the players would still be complaining about it, like Shinnecock in 2004.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 03:57:06 PM »
Oakmont was damned close to torture, but that's just the nature of the place, I don't think it had much to do with set-up.

The PGA came closer to making a set-up mistake than the USGA has in a while, at Oakland Hills last year.  If it hadn't rained on the weekend the players would still be complaining about it, like Shinnecock in 2004.

Mike Davis attributed the high scoring at Oakmont and Winged Foot to dry, breezy conditions, contending that under normal conditions the winning score would have been under par.  The players really didn't complain about Oakmont and what complaints I remember about Winged Foot mostly had to do with the greens being too slow.

I think he's more sensitive to avoiding the sort gratuitous idiocies of the Tom Meeks era - unreachable fairways at BB, the Redan at Shinny on the last day, the miniature golf hole location on the 18th at Olympic. 

tlavin

Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote New
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 03:58:51 PM »
People have to remember that the USGA has a Championship Committee that works hard to determine the philosophy behind their setup decisions in the U.S. Open.  The guys on the firing line, Meeks and now Davis, are the ones who make the day-to-day decisions, but the committee is the body that makes the overall mission statement if you will.

I say this from experience, because when the USGA came to Olympia Fields, the committee had made a decision to not get so concerned about preserving par.  One of the principal ways they did this was to decide, well before the event, to keep the rough at 3 1/2 inches, as opposed to the 6 inches plus seen at most similar venues (Winged Foot, for example).  This was rather disconcerting to us at Olympia, because we wanted to see our golf course play as tough as possible.  We wanted them hacking out of the bloody heather!  The committee, however, after much deliberation (and probably defensively after years of criticism about brutal setups), decided to tempt the player to go for the green out of the rough, rather than just get back to the fairway.  Their thought was that if they tried and failed to hold the green, they would wind up long.  Long rhymes with wrong, especially at Olympia.

Unfortunately, the course was wet the week before the Open and it got wetter after the rough was cut.  The greens, as a result, held all manner of shots out of the rough, no matter the length, and for the first two days, they just killed the course.  Olympia got pilloried for being too soft and the fact that the course came back on the weekend when the weather shifted got lost in translation and the course and the USGA were smarting a bit in response.  The quote that I made on the Golf Channel in prime time (unappreciated by the blue coats, but true) was basically: "The members are hurting because they're killing our course early.  We don't want to be a one-year experiment of a kinder and gentler USGA."  But that's what it felt like at the time, because the decision to cut the rough, although not a hasty one on their part (see above) was a gentle set up call that seemed to backfire.  The next year, they got too close to the line and Shinnecock was almost unplayable in certain areas.

The point here is that the championship committee has been trying, in fits and spurts, to get a less brutal setup philosophy going and they seem to have settled in now under Mike Davis.  That doesn't mean that Davis is a genius and Meeks was a rube.  They both influence, but follow, the will of the competition committee.  And each of them is subject to the biggest game-changer of all: the weather.  Davis can have the softest setup in his head, but if it rains all week, that golf course will play like it's 8400 yards and it will be brutal, even if they can go after some flagsticks with wet greens.  I got to know both Meeks and Davis and I think they are quality men.  Davis may be in a better position because Meeks took the heat with the back and forth on the hard/softer/hard again pendulum that was going on for a while, but it all stems from the committee.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:07:02 AM by Terry Lavin »

Matt_Ward

Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 04:07:01 PM »
After having been at BB today -- I have to say the set-up for this year's Open is quite good -- no doubt things will be influenced by the sorry weather that could stick around for the duration of the championship.

The graduated rough looks good and provides the appropriate - but not over-the-top penalty -- and the set-up with the 8th playing to a shorter hole position is also a fine idea.

I'm not a fan of the new fairway bunkers at #9 and #13 -- they seem out-of-place -- but the ascension of Mike Davis has thus far been a positive one. The sites he has influenced have been tough no doubt but player's can make low scores -- albeit they need to earn them.

Tiger said it best during his media interview -- the course will play long but the greens are receptive. If someone hits it straight with sufficient distance and can putt -- the low scores are there to be had. That is the way it should be and I salute Mike Davis for understanding that better than most.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 06:04:06 PM »
With all due respect Matt, Tiger's comments are made as a result of the rain recently...I don't believe Mike Davis has control of that...yet...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote New
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 07:15:52 PM »
I wish they hadn't "lost control" of the Redan on that last day at Shinnecock.  Meeks wasn't the problem; and Davis -- who seems like a top flight professional -- isn't the solution. If there is a problem, it's the ever-greater focus on course set-up that resulted from the 2004 Open. As long as the focus is on the set-up, it's not on the architecture. As long as we're talking the Next Great Idea (e.g. graduated rough) we're not talking Fundamenal Strategic Principles. Now, maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't... But have films gotten any better since people started talking about how movies are doing at the box office?

Peter
  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 07:25:46 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Matt_Ward

Re: Appleby U.S. Open quote
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 07:19:09 PM »
Jim:

You misunderstood what I said -- I saluted Mike Davis, Craig Currier (forgot to mention him) and the rest for the set-up of BB. The course will certainly influenced by the expected showers -- I don't see much of what Tiger said to be changed that much unless the wind picks up noticeably.

The weather situation is the unknown factor but from what I have seen thus far everyone deserves plaudits for where the course is now on the eve of the championship.

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