[Mike Hendren]

I am enjoying the currently Ballynead thread but did not want to hijack it.  My round there with Adam 18 months ago was truly  as enjoyable as any I've experienced. 

Let me ask:  Is the architect mimicking or competing with nature at the 8th green?



Mike

[PThomas]

mimicking

[Tom Huckaby]

Does it matter?

The view in this picture is only achievable if one stands high above the green looking back (obviously).  It has zero relevance in the play of the golf hole.  So yes, one could argue that the architect is either mimicking or competing with nature by creating (or using) those humps in the green which so closely match those in the fairway - and neither choice has very positive connotations.

HOWEVER.. as one PLAYS THE GOLF HOLE, none of this matters.  One sure has hell doesn't notice any competing or mimicking of nature in the play.  What one does experience is that one has an interesting tee shot, with strategic choice to be made and fine execution required, and then the same goes for the approach.. and any and all putts and chips... It is just a damn fine golf hole, very very very fun to play.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I agree with the direction that Huck is taking in his post. If you look at the hole from the way you play it, if anything it seems to have been built to align with the general shape and rise of the ridgeline behind it.

This picture was taken from about 100 yards out and zoomed in a little bit.  Either way its absolute fantastic hole from tee to green.

[Rob Rigg]

The fact that it works so well in play along with aesthetically and artistically from the top of the dunes says a great deal about the thought put into the design.

Pretty bloody brilliant stuff.

[Michael Dugger]

But fellas, I think it does matter.....

The ancillary effect of naturalism is integral to great golf course architecture.....

If not, why do we mention anything about Mackenzie bunkers disappearing when you look at the hole backwards?

Vantage points are a huge part of the golf course experience, and isn't it preferable that the landforms fit?

[Chris DeNigris]

How about complementing?

Much better connotation. Almost complimentary.

[Ben Sims]

Transition your eyes slowly from the visible humps in the green to the horizon.  I am pretty sure those humps mimic the choppy tops of the that part of CO pretty well.  I only noticed one area of the course that didn't look "tied in" the entire 63 holes I played.  And the 8th green wasn't it.  In fact, it tied for my personal favorite complex at the course with #7 and #11.

[Wyatt Halliday]

16 is a stunner given the Norelco job needed to create it.

Kyle, do you have the photo handy? I know you still have the battle scar associated with taking it.

[Doug Wright]

I only noticed one area of the course that didn't look "tied in" the entire 63 holes I played. 

OK Ben, where was it?

[John_Cullum]

Mike

Please check you messages

Thanks,
Sarge

[Ben Sims]

Doug,

I mentioned to Mr. Doak on the thread about his recent interview about how Matt Schulte offered up an opinion on the dune and bunker complex on the left portion of the 12th fairway.  Due to some of the vegetation and the way the fairway slopes down and then up into it, it seemed as if it had been "pushed" up in order to make the fairway and green behind it less accessible-and more blind--from the tee.  He assured me that I was indeed incorrect and the only dirt moving on that side of the fairway was to soften the dune, allow a better area for landing a tee shot below the dune, and open the view behind it a little

However, that hole demonstrates a trick that Renaissance has used in the past to hide fairway from the player.  On more than a dozen or so occasions on different courses of his this year, I have noticed Tom's love of confusion.  It seemed that for every 4 holes where tempting the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg or preferred line was rewarded; there was one hole where playing well away from the bunkers rewarded the player (a la 14).  And if you tempted those "one in five" holes by going after the bunkers as Doak trains you to do, then either bunkers or a poor angle await you.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I did want to share my opinion on that particular phenomenon I have noticed at Pac Dunes, Stone Eagle, and Ballyneal this year.  A shorter answer to your question would've been; on the left on the 12th fairway.

[Josh Smith]

Mimicking.

[Joe Hancock]

Mimicking.

Show-off.....

 

[Adam Clayman]

On another computer I have before and after pictures of the 8th from the rear orientation. I don't know if I can access them, but I will try.

I can tell you this, if memory serves, the 8th was one of the first holes Jim Urbina found on his very first site visit.

The major features of the whole were there before the shaping. The green does mimic the surrounds and is in keeping with the remainder of the greens that have varying humps and bumps throughout.

[Ed Oden]

Definitely mimicking...

[JC Jones]

The question for me (and I'm not sure the answer really matters) is whether they "created" the green or "found" the green.  It appears from the pictures that the land is bumpy and wild throughout the hole and they could have just placed the green where they did and not "created" the mounds in the middle of the green.

Either way it looks awesome.

[Ian_L]

I hope I don't get shot for this but to me they look a little unnatural. Nothing egregious, but something about those three humps looks oddly symmetrical to me.

Of course, someone who knows is likely going to tell me that those humps were already there...

[Sean_A]

I like four things about the green.  First, the humps have a general trend of moving to the edges and beyond of the green.  Second, there appears to be a lot of cool pin placements.  Third, it looks like short grass goes around to the left.  I like the idea of someone having a recovery from there to the far side of the green over that rear bunker.  Fourth and probably most important for me is the little tie in ramp just right of the rear bunker feeding down to a swale behind and right of the hole.  There are a few sandy spots at the base of the ramp which make where I am talking about easy to find.  That tie in makes all the other humps work alright.  



Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

I failed to mention how integral those humps are to intresting, creative and challenging golf. The interior larger contours are not as cool or integral as the 3 tiny noses that guared the entrance. With the valley of indiscretion being the penalty for slight misses. I can easily see where those who use words like fair, or are so enamoured with standardized golf would be put off by such realities. 

[Tom_Doak]

The 8th green was shaped by Brian Schneider.

When we started on it, I was unsure about whether to try and incorporate the upper-right area as part of the green, because there was so much fall from right to left; but I told him to go ahead and try and then we'd figure out whether to make it green or not.  But really I figured that 80-90% of the play would be to a flag on the bottom left of the green, and that the humps wouldn't be in play all that much.

The furthest-right hump is changed a bit to keep an approach shot to the right in that pocket ... it was actually a ridge extending out from the back, but if we left the whole ridge then any downhill putt would've had even more speed than it does, so we flattened it out along the back edge of the green.

The other two humps are Brian's creations.  I think some part of the front one was already there; the one which is wholly on the inside of the green was built to give some braking action to slow down a putt from the top right to bottom left.  I liked that one because the hole can be tucked behind it and you have to decide whether to play safely left or whether to try to sneak a shot in around the right side of it.

The front hump was the one I considered changing or abandoning; it's only real purpose is so you can start a putt off the top tier toward the front of the green and have it swing back in to the middle breaking left to right.  But, it looked to me like it fit in okay with all the other contours out there, so I left it alone.  So the PURPOSE was certainly not to mimic Nature, but that was part of the consideration once it was there.

P.S.  I generally look at our greens from a bunch of different angles to make sure nothing looks weird or unnatural.  I'm sure I looked from #9 tee as well but it was not the main focus.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

I other words the dramatic undulations were utilized to obfuscate the stair step down from the back right to front left of the green?  Your post underscores the dangers of judging a course on photographs or a single play:  it is too easy to miss the utility of the internal contours. 

BTW, I was thrilled to hit my approach within ten feet to a pin in the small bowl in the back-middle.  Easy two putt par.

Kingest regards,

Mike

[Ed Oden]

If you look closely at this picture, you can see my ball about 15 feet to the right and beyond the flag.



I hit what I thought was a very good putt 90 degrees to the top of the back hump in the hopes it would trickle down to the hole.  Even at Ballyneal's slower green speeds, there was no chance as the ball raced to the front of the green.  After finishing the hole, we all plopped down balls and tried this putt in every conceivable manner of attack.  As it turned out, the only way to get your ball to stop in the little area between the 3 humps (the best we could do was about 5 feet away from the cup) was to delicately tap it about a foot toward the hole, catching the slope of the back hump and sending the ball straight left away from the hole just enough to then catch the front right hump at the correct angle to bend it back to the right.  It was totally counterintuitive from what the eye sees and what you would ever think of doing without trial and error.  In my opinion, that's just one example of what makes this green so good.  You could play the hole a thousand times and never experience all the potential options available. 

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  Exactly.  There is four or five feet between the upper tier on the right and the lower tier, and we just hate those big, long, straight tiers.  Actually a lot of the contouring on our most severe greens is built to slow down a putt after a big tier.  It is amazing to me that most people never figure out how to use it, but I guess it's not that common.  

I picked up the idea from some of Dr. MacKenzie's wilder greens ... making the green a series of bowls rather than tiers.  It works particularly well in sand dunes where everything is either a dune or a bowl; that is why it fits in so well in the pictures.

P.S. to Ed:  Actually, when we were building that green, I looked pretty hard at the hole location in your photo and decided they should rarely if ever use it, precisely because of the putt you faced.  I don't think it's "unfair" to put it there ... because if you know the green you should just make sure you miss left of the flag, or be prepared to take your medicine.  But it's "inadvisable" to put the hole there because most people are never going to see any way to get the ball on that tier from where you were putting, and they will pronounce it unfair.

[Tom Huckaby]

OK gents this is all good stuff... and yes, it makes for one heck of a fun green when wild humps are used to slow down what otherwise might be a hellish slope (plain English translation of my friend Michael's uncharacterisc slip into legalese)... but has anyone yet answered the question Michael asked?

That is....

Is the architect mimicking or competing with nature at the 8th green?

I took that as an either/or.  I see Tom said in one post they were not attempting to mimic nature, so I guess that is the answer...  but is it?  And does the answer to that matter?

See I knew the green - and the hole - were each wildly great... what I still don't know is the point of Michael's question... help me out here guys.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()