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Phil_the_Author

Charles tried to write a balanced non-judgmental article. I can tell you that he is in the Tilly designed it camp...

tlavin

Thank God it isn't in Philly or we'd have Oliver Stone working on a fricking documentary narrated by Jimmy Roberts, complete with ominous oboe orchestrations...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Philip Young,

GD concluded that Tillie was just a consultant.  Where do you stand?

SORRY.  SHOULD HAVE READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:35:58 AM by Lou_Duran »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
great, another Merion thread ..... ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_Cirba

Can I request some metes and bounds??

I say no way would Joe Burbeck design giant, flamboyant bunkers like those!

He was much more of a Rees circular pot bunker type of guy I understand.  ;)

Phil_the_Author

Lou,

I'll post a long narrative another time. GD calls him a "Consultant" because that is what he was titled in the contract that was signed. What is never explained by them, and quite conveniently of course, is that New York State DIDN'T OWN THE LAND when it was signed.

There isn't a person alive who thinks that Joe Burbeck designed the clubhouse, yet Clifford Wendehack was signed to a CONSULTANT CONTRACT for the VERY SAME REASON!

They also get hung up on the idea that Burbeck was in charge of the project. Actually, he was the site representative for the project and did NOT have final say-so. The proof of this can be found in Tilly's article "Mankillers" in which he compares Pine Valley and Bethpage Black. He tells how it was Burbeck's IDEA (important word) to have a course that might challenge it. If Burbeck was the man in charge and did the design, it would not have been his IDEA but would have been his DECISION!

This same article Tilly actually discusses how fearful He was in designing and laying out the 4th hole! He claimed the design as his own in this article written in March 1934. The course was just being finished designed and laid out at that time.

There are a number of "smoking gun" proofs that Tilly designed all of the courses, not just the Black, and absolutely NONE that even intimates that Burbeck did. One last which I have mentioned more than once out here... the 5th hole on the original Blue course. It is the ONLY hole given a name and was called the "Famous REEF Hole." Tilly created the concept of a Reef Holoe and wrote about it in Golf Illustrated in 1926.

Ron Whitten's response to em when i wrote this to him? "Maybe Burbeck saw a Reef Hole and liked the design and so included it." ABSURD and insulting answer! Can anyone name a single architect who ever designed a hole and said "This is based on Tillinghast's Reef hole design?" I defy anyone to show one...

Unfortunately I must go & enjoy an evening of fun with Mike Sweeney and others!   

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Klein was interviewed on Peter Kessler's XM/Sirius show this morning  and he is clearly in the Tillinghast camp.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
There isn't a person alive who thinks that Joe Burbeck designed the clubhouse, yet Clifford Wendehack was signed to a CONSULTANT CONTRACT for the VERY SAME REASON!

Philip, to me this is the strongest evidence AGAINST Ron Whitten's argument. Did Witten respond back to you on this point?

Phil_the_Author

Ron is very inconvenient when it comes to responding, especially when valid points that can't be disagreed with are made.

He has begun publicly stating that Tilly fans (and I am the foremost in this in his mind) speak "from the heart and their emotions." HORSE CRAP and BALDERDASH!

I have no problem at all crediting Joe Burbeck with the design of all the courses at Bethpage... IF HE DID IT! The problem is that he didn't. Ron & GD made a decision to write something controversial that they believed and felt they had the "smoking gun proof" for. The problem is that in their rush to sell magazines and make money they really did a piss-poor job of research.

By the way, ask Ron how, if I am solely interested in crediting "my hero" Tilly with everything that I can, that I removed a golf club that RON WHITTEN credits Tilly with having designed from the Tillinghast Association website because it was designed by someone else? I don't mention the name of the club because he deserves to do some research and figure it out for himself...  ;D

Tilly doesn't need design credit for the Black, Red, Blue and Green courses at Bethpage to bolster his career. His greatness as an architect was firmly fixed as among the few who could lay claim to being the greatest of them all with out Bethpage. No, Bethpage simply was the product of his mind and no one else's...

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times Article - "Did Tillinghast Really Design Bethpage Black?"
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 08:33:05 AM »
Hi Phil

Did the eagle land?

Can I Broaden this thread related to a what may be a pattern of revisionism without any facts related to Tillinghast's design record.

Back in 1993, Ron Whitten authored a preview article for Golf Digest on the U.S. Open at Baltusrol.  The article was titled something like, "The Longest Yawn"

In the article several statements were made with no basis in fact.

The statement that I still recall vividly said that, Tillinghast was not very proud of Baltusrol because he had to share design credit with Baltusrol's pro George Low, and if you read through all of Tilly's chest thumping writings there is scarcely a mention of Baltusrol.

Now, compared to actual published facts, I know of no documentation anywhere that states that George Low was a co-architect of Baltusrol's Lower and Upper.  And to the best of my knowledge, GD and RW never produced any to support the article's assertion.

And if anyone takes the time to read through all of Tilly's writings there are many references to Baltusrol, and in fact, Tillinghast lists the design in his 1926 qualifications and he called himself the "Creator of Baltusrol" in his published advertisements.

SO, IS THERE A PATTERN HERE?





Is there a pattern with GD and RW?

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times Article - "Did Tillinghast Really Design Bethpage Black?"
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 08:48:45 AM »
One other thing that bothers me...and I would be interested if it bothers practicing golf architects and others on this board...

Does the revising of design credit with very little basis to go on, do a great disservice to the the profession of golf architecture?

There are many professionals, engineers, architects, constructors, contractors, draftsman and skilled tradesman and labor that go into a golf course project.  The design process takes input from the owners and other professionals involved.  And, isn it not generally accepted that each project has a design architect of record who is credited with design services?   

And, is it not generally accepted that the architect gets professional credit for construction, engineering and other professional services?  Conversely does the constructor get credit for the work of the design architect?

Tillinghast did alot to elevate golf architecture to a recognized profession, as did many of the other golden age architects.  It seems to me that this article published by GD has fired rifled shot through the profession of golf architecture.

Bottom line for me is that there are three practicing golf course architects which Bethpage State Park recognizes as its "official golf course architects of record" -- A.W. Tillinghast, Arthur Tull and Rees Jones.

 


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times Article - "Did Tillinghast Really Design Bethpage Black?"
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 09:25:17 AM »
Rick,

I wish attributing credit was that easy.  Generally, yes, the principal of the firm with a design contract gets the credit.  Of course, in many cases a consulting Tour Pro with no design contract gets the credit and later in life, when associates go out and form their own firms, we find that they often shamelesslly list courses of their former boss as theirs on their websites and in publicity, which always rankles some feathers.  Even if I have one set of attribution standards for my courses, those former associates don't necessarily adhere to them!  And owners who pay Tour Pros big bucks certainly don't!

To put it in a different perspective, I believe most modern gca's love Ron because he was actually one of the first to really delve into "who did the work" and writing about and crediting associates who might have been involved.  As a modern example, if we used your "one gets the credit" mode, Chambers Bay would be an RTJ II course, but thanks to the move to know what really happened, which started, IMHO, with Ron, we get pictures of Jones, Bruce Charlton and Jay Blasi in magazines describing its creation.

As you say, many, many people are involved in creating a golf course.  Ideas come from a lot of places, including a project manager saying, "oh don't go in that area, it may be tennis coursts someday" or in the case of the Merion threads, a developer with an interest in the golf club being flexible in the land use.

In both the BP and Merion threads, the tendency on this board has been to protect the history as it was once recorded, but I see no harm in historians digging deeper to gain a clearer picture.  That's just what happens whether its a President or a Golf Course.  Intersested parties keep digging and finding out more.  And I know Ron well enough to know that he isn't doing it to tweak Tillie or anyone.  He has always been a pretty good fact checker, digging up old documents for his book long before the internet made it easy.

That said, I suspect that like Merion, there would really need to be more documents to make an informed decision and that there will always be a lot of interpretation.  But, it surprising to me how emotional defenders of Tillie and Wilson can get!  I know Ron takes that emotion as a sign of "the other side" not having that many facts.  I have heard Ron say (former lawyer that he is) "When the facts are on your side, pound the facts, when the law is on your side, pound the law, and when neither is on your side, pound the table!"  He thinks many of you are pounding the table right now.

If this goes on like the Merion threads, I will personally discount any of the posts that start with or include "I believe" or "this must have happened" or "this is the most likely explanation I can see....."

As far as I know, (from memory) Ron DID cite the sources and facts that he relied on - the consulting contract, the early termination, Tillie crediting Burbeck with the "idea", and recollections of Burbeck's son.  Someone could list them more completely than I, I am sure.  You and Phillip can list your sources and we can compare and decide for ourseleves in something less than 1400 posts and five threads!

I doubt I will join in another thread, preferring instead to go out and perhaps make some gca history of my own!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times Article - "Did Tillinghast Really Design Bethpage Black?"
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 09:46:08 AM »
Jeff Brauer,

I am curious, how much of the work on a given project must an associate be responsible for to be given some credit for it?  And in building a resume or a list of projects worked on, do you and the Society have standards that clearly define what is proper?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times Article - "Did Tillinghast Really Design Bethpage Black?"
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 10:10:57 AM »
Lou,

ASGCA has some standards for membership, kind of.  When any applicant has his/her courses reviewed, there is a place for the reviewer and owner to mark 0-25%, 25-50%, 50-75% or 75+% repsonsible for any particular phase (routing, permitting, feature design, etc.) To get in, the people reviewing the course don't have any specific guidelines, since each office works differently, and we know that no one would be 100% responsible for everything, save the one man office.

As to outside credit for associates, we have traditionally left that up to the principles.  Some are quite generous in crediting associates, others prefer that they get all the credit.  Some of the bigger firms tell me that they actually have employment contracts whereby when they hire someone, they anticipate his departure and put some kind of limits on what they can say, how long, etc.  Most of us just consider that our former associates will do the right thing and tell the basic truth, such as "I was project architect on the Tiddly Links Project while working under the direction of Jeffrey D. Brauer" rather than "I designed Tiddly Links." 

But, I have heard some principles complain about former associates or their new clients using terms like "XXX was the DRIVING FORCE behind the XXX project" to imply that their guy did the design of a course that he didn't really do.

Its also considered bad form to blast your former boss, saying "I did all the work while he was drunk" but it seems as if it might have been a pretty true statement, at least back in the old days!

I can understand where Phil and company are coming from on this whole deal, but have also seen both the detail of who did what get debated a lot (and never really settled, see below) and the written record be dramatically off.  For that matter, I tend to believe that in the old days, they had an easier time of putting out what they wanted to put out than they do these days, since the press was less questioning in general, or more polite in most cases.


As to credit for any individual features, we sat down in the office one day a few years ago to figure out who really did each green on a project, just for historical purposes.  On one green in particular, I recalled that I wanted to generally reverse the pattern of XXX green, but there was some office discussion and the green got smaller due to budget and site, the draftsman recalled changing 3 bunkers into one big one, and the field guy recalled changing it a few times in the field, softening some slopes, adding a fw chipping area, etc. 

A year after the project, we found that we couldn't really attribute the design to any one person easily.  If you are looking for detail 60-80 years later, I can see how it would be impossible to determine.  Memories like Burbeck Jr, Francis at Merion, etc. all get clouded really quickly.  Burbeck could have been right about seeing plans on his Dad's desk, etc. but not sure exactly what they meant, even if he was doodling on them and making changes.  As per above, he could have decided (this being the depression and all) that he loved Tillie's 4th green but had to make it 10% smaller and draw right over it, giving the impression that he designed the green.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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