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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Alcohol and the creative process
« on: June 15, 2009, 09:25:12 PM »
Now that's a golf course architecture subjet ;D

A few weeks ago, I went to the Stanley Thompson Symposium and among the fascinating stories of Mr Thompson the use of alcohol generate a much heated debate.

It got me thinking, as I often thought, that most major golf architects of the golden Age have drinking stories, to say the least. It probably was a trendy thing to do... but to a certain extend, the use of alcohol and success in a creative environment can be related.

Having been in a design environment for the last 10 years, a couple of things came clear to me:

artistic design is about looking at something from a new, and at first often ridiculous, perspective.
therefore, you have to release the tension from your mind... let the flow going, throw away the details, the technical problem and start anew.

I'm not saying you have to be down on the ground drunk to do some design... but alcohol help you release the inhibition, some might use yoga, tai-chi or whatever else, alcohol is probably easier and faster.

the key is that you have to be able to remember, once you've freed up your spirits (by opening a bottle of one) creation and innovation is easier, but leave notes on paper because the next morning, if you can process all that information that came out the evening before... you are going to be productive with your ideas, you're going to make wild ideas work.

I do believe most golden age guys drank a bit (after all, you're stuck 4, 5 days on a train or a boat, what else are you going to do).. but odds are, the stories might have been blown out of proportions... If they were only drinking, they would have stayed in the bar, odds are they were drinking and thinking at the same time.

your thoughts, is there a golf architect who never drinks?

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 10:37:49 PM »
this is not about me trying to defend my passion for scotch ;D ;D ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 11:29:20 PM »
Philippe:  I know at least 3 or 4 golf course architects who never drink.  However, most of them used to drink quite a bit, which is why they don't anymore.

Personally, I don't remember coming up with any of my best ideas after having a couple of beers, but then again I can't remember for sure.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 11:54:10 PM »
For what it's worth, my old World Book Encyclopedia had this quote in the bit on marijuana:

"Marijuana is mistakenly believed to improve the playing ability of musicians. In fact, it on makes them THINK that they are playing better."

I never checked to see if there was any mention of golf course architecture in the bit on alcohol.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jim Nugent

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 12:04:59 AM »
Alcohol releases people's inhibitions.  Maybe that leads to creativity? 

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 12:08:28 AM »
Philippe,

Alcohol was one of the catalysts to me not getting to see CommonGround this weekend and being fortunate to catch another 18 at Ballyneal this past Sunday.  In that respect, it was certainly beneficial to my GCA learning process.


W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 12:14:16 AM »
Alchohol also ultimately destroyed Dick Wilson and Tillinghast.  Hemingway came to a sorry end and many others never got started.  read Under the Volcano, Malcolm Lowry,  to get some insight into the creative mind and its demise under the influence.  

I believe that true creativity exists prior to alchoholism.  The drinker finds himself in a position of having to quiet the active mind and then finds him or herself dealing with something that destroys the drinker.  

Go ahead try some heavy drinking for a few years and see if you become more or less creative.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:16:01 AM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 12:15:13 AM »
Philippe,

Having just read 'The Match', a great book by Mark Frost, I found it interesting that in early years during the Crosby over at Pebble, Spyglass, and Cypress, Bing Crosby personally handed out a fifth to each competitor on the first tee to drink during their round.

I think those may have gotten some juices flowing.

If you haven't gotten the chance, do read that book.  

Cheers,
Jordan

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 01:15:41 AM »
They were good architects and had the right connections despite the alcohol. If your premise is true there is some homeless derelict out there who has never seen a golf course just waiting to be discovered.
I must have missed my calling during young adulthood.


This is not posted by
R hic ?

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 01:44:46 AM »
TE Paul nailed this one a few years back

In that instance he was speaking about drinking and writing

He asserted you write when you drink, but edit sober...

I think this may also apply to certain elements of gca
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 08:39:25 AM »
An entire generation of Jazz saxaphonists were ruined because they thought that that drugs were the reason why Bird Parker played the way he did.

In fact, he played like that in spite of the drugs.

Same thing is true of other types of creative souls.

It also applies to the permission they often give themselves to act crazy.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 11:09:31 AM »
Hell yes it does. Taking Shivas' post one step further.

I would assume that if you get 4 fun-loving GCA.com types together at a roundtable, gave them a rough topo map, and a couple 30-packs of Busch Light those 4 guys may come up with some interesting ideas that they wouldn't of if totally sober and worried about bringing new ideas forward.
H.P.S.

tlavin

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 11:13:01 AM »
Alchohol also ultimately destroyed Dick Wilson and Tillinghast.  Hemingway came to a sorry end and many others never got started.  read Under the Volcano, Malcolm Lowry,  to get some insight into the creative mind and its demise under the influence.  

I believe that true creativity exists prior to alchoholism.  The drinker finds himself in a position of having to quiet the active mind and then finds him or herself dealing with something that destroys the drinker.  

Go ahead try some heavy drinking for a few years and see if you become more or less creative.

Don't you hate it when the facts get in the way of a nice, loose thread?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 11:19:30 AM »
I'm reminded of a Bill Cosby quote on this subject because the concept is the same even if the vice is a bit different:

"I said to a guy, "Tell me, what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful," and he said, "Because it intensifies your personality." I said, "Yes, but what if you're an asshole?" "   ;D


Peter Pallotta

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 11:44:50 AM »
KMoum got it exactly right, I think. And you don't have to take our word for it - apparently Parker himself, when he wasn't in a panic and could care about life, tried to tell his disciples exactly that: he didn't play the way he did because he was using, but in spite of it.

I tried to think a joking, light-hearted comment -- after all, most of the big-time, old-time architects are long gone. But I just couldn't bring myself to find the humour.

Peter


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 11:58:28 AM »
Peter,

I think this is an interesting thread and humor can have a place.

The reality is the full effects of alcohol and other drugs we have now made illegal weren't fully understood back in thier day.  It was common to drink at work, drink while driving around, and it wasn't anyone else's business to intervene and get them the help they needed. So on that level, I don't hold it against them as even the scientific community was igorant to the seriousness of addiction and life-ruining properties of drugs and booze.

We know better know and have made the adjustments both on a personal and societal level, but its just one more way to define thier life and timeframe that they worked in and enjoy thier magnicifent work.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 12:27:11 PM »
Kalen - sorry, it just struck me that you may have thought I was referring to your previous post when I mentioned humour. Not in the least - in fact, I got a very good laugh out of Cosby's line. Shivas hit it when he described the difference between a social medium and an escape mechanism -- I was thinking mostly of the darkness that lays behind much of the bonhomie when it's the latter case. Didn't mean to be a drag...

Peter

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 12:43:22 PM »
Kalen - sorry, it just struck me that you may have thought I was referring to your previous post when I mentioned humour. Not in the least - in fact, I got a very good laugh out of Cosby's line. Shivas hit it when he described the difference between a social medium and an escape mechanism -- I was thinking mostly of the darkness that lays behind much of the bonhomie when it's the latter case. Didn't mean to be a drag...

Peter

Peter,

I did wonder, but thanks for clearing that one that up.  ;)

No doubt there were some sad stories, but either way I'm guessing most of the ODGs were likely a hoot to hang out with and shoot the bull, whether the discussion was architecture related or not!  ;D

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 01:24:12 PM »
I believe Harry Vardon may well have been Shivas' patron saint.

At the zenith of his career he was asked by the leader of the English Ladies Temperence Society if he would endorse their palatform.

Drawing himself up to his full size he replied, "Madame, I have yet to be beaten by a tee-totaller, when that happens, I may give your request some consideration."


Bob

Phil_the_Author

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 11:32:24 PM »
W.H., you stated that, "Alcohol also ultimately destroyed... Tillinghast..." This is quite incorrect. Tilly's problems with alcohol were far different than has been reported in the past and very much misunderstood. In addition, he quit drinking alcohol more than 15 years before he died and had slowed his consumption of it before then.

You'll be able to read about this shortly in an In My Opinion piece on Tilly that Ran will shortly be putting up live...  

David, You stated that, "I envision Tillie and a few others getting out on the land, walking it, having a few drinks together as they walked..." In that same In My Opinion piece I mentioned above it will clear this mistaken belief that he would design a course sitting with a flask in hand while directing work... that NEVER happened and the source of the deliberate lie that was spread after his passing will be named...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:36:24 PM by Philip Young »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 12:02:06 AM »
Seriously, I think there are many different personalities designing golf courses and for most, stimulants would play absolutely no part.  For one, I find it hard to design hung over or with a headache, and really, just if plain tired. 

I figured Tilly was referring to Joe 6 pack when he mentioned "Duffer's Headaces."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 07:50:23 AM »
Personally I get relaxed inspiration from an adult beverage or two...especially when the equipment shuts down and the crowd goes home, and I can enjoy and roam the site in solitude.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 08:02:03 AM »
Paul,

Yes, I get inspired by roaming the site in solitude, either at dawn or dusk.  Not sure alcolhol required, atlhough for the dawn trips, coffee sure is!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 08:05:48 AM »
Jeff,

I wouldn't be surprised in there was some truth to that!

Anthony Gray

Re: Alcohol and the creative process
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 08:06:01 AM »
  Here is the reason why I quit drinking.

 


 

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