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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« on: June 15, 2009, 03:10:05 PM »
How history remembers Tom Doak will be interesting. Given the pace he is on of building world class courses, he may will be remembered as one of the top five architects of all time. Whether or not that happens depends on what kind of sites he gets going forward, as the quality of the work will no doubt be there. Of even greater certainty perhaps is that he will be remembered among golf course architecture's handful of greatest writers/critics, along with such men as George Thomas, Max Behr and Alister MacKenzie. In fact, given the amount of written word that Tom is leaving behind (here, through his books and magazine articles), he might will finish at the top of the heap. That would probably irk him to no end if he is remembered more for writing than designing but what a fantastic problem to have!

Tom Paul and I remarked last weekend that we have never seen him make a single typo in his thousand plus posts in this Discussion Group. His writing style is invariably to the point. Indeed, his bluntness may have cost him a project or two along the way, even as it was cultivating an enormous fan base. Ask him a question and you get a direct answer as is witnessed in this Feature Interview.

We posted GolfClubAtlas.com's first Feature Interview ten years ago to this month and it was with Tom Doak. Doing that first Feature Interview with him helped us along immeasurably as it set the tone for GolfClubAtlas.com to be more than 'just' a Discussion Group or blog. As for him, what a ride it has been during these past ten years as he has left an indelible mark around the world, from the Colorado prairie to the Oregon coastline to New Zealand and Australia and up over to Scotland. While we all wait for another great one to open in Old Macdonald, he is off to Asia to make his mark.

Hope you find his answers to these wide ranging questions (from the current state of his profession to bunker styles to the only modern course that has been built since TCG that he would give a 'nine') as interesting as I do. In the meanwhile, through both his in-the-dirt work and his writing, he is having a profound two prong influence on his chosen profession -  and we are all the better for it.

Cheers,

PThomas

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 03:36:31 PM »
VERY interesting stuff...thanks Tom and Ran
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

tlavin

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 04:37:54 PM »
A great read.  Tom Doak is surely one of the most inspiring architects on the scene today.  He's thoughtful, creative, ambitious and, as you will see from this interview, quite practical in his view of the current state of golf course architecture.  His work is surely maturing, but here's hoping that he never loses his puckish personality, which seems to insinuate itself into his work.

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 05:17:58 PM »
Well done!

I actually went back and read the first Tom Doak interview from 10 years ago before reading the new piece.


I do have another question if Tom Doak happens to read this thread and isn't traveling; Do you think that projects like Common Ground are going to become more popular in the short term future with many courses and developments going BK and the eventual thawing of the credit markets allowing for other investors to purchase the underperforming properties?

Also, I found your comment on taking a differed compensation interesting. Do you see "back-end" compensation becoming more popular with yourself and other GCA's as a way to help projects get off the ground?
H.P.S.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 05:24:26 PM »
Interesting interview, thanks.

Sorry to hear about Aetna Springs (the Napa Valley course on hold).

I wonder what course this is:

Quote
In negotiation: .... one high-profile renovation in California.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Bill_McBride

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 05:27:32 PM »
Thanks for the excellent interview, Ran.  You are right, Tom never does duck a question (unless he has to!).  He has handled a lot of questions about the relationship with Jack Nicklaus at Sebonac with wit and tact.

i really admire the way he gives a lot of both freedom and credit to his associates.  I think that is the mark of a solid businessman and person as well as golf architect.

Rob Rigg

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 05:43:09 PM »
Great interview!

I also hope that Wicked Pony near Bend, OR gets financing one of these days so Tom and team can finish up the final nine holes. From what I have seen and heard about the course it really will be another golden feather in the hat of Renaissance Design - and a great walking course to boot despite the initial "real estate" aspect that probably impacted the routing.

Steve Kupfer

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 06:13:57 PM »
Thanks Ran/Tom for providing some great perspective.

Greg Clark

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 07:26:22 PM »
Very much enjoyed reading the interview.  Well done.

Tom,

Yes the course you mentioned in North Dallas (Prosper to be specific) has been put on hold indefintiely by LandPlan.  The course was to be called BearsBrook Golf Club.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 07:31:35 PM »
Pat:  

[I'm not traveling until tomorrow!]

I would love to see more projects like Common Ground happen throughout our industry.  I doubt that's very realistic, though.  Common Ground is a quasi-municipal project [the Colorado Golf Association inherited the old golf course from Lowry AFB for nothing], and sadly municipal-type projects are not likely given the state of government budgets.  What you are more likely to see is some local governments thinking about buying up failed golf courses at 35 cents on the dollar ... and that would be a lot better than course closings.

Rob R:

I don't know if Wicked Pony will ever get back on track or not; they are still trying.  But I CAN tell you that the routing for the course was not influenced by the development much at all.  There were 2 road crossings, neither of them major; the client really wanted a walkable golf course.

Thomas Patterson

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 07:41:46 PM »
Absolutely wonderful interview.  Always nice to hear Tom's thoughts and insights.  Great job on the piece Ran. 

Just one question for you Tom...I was at Black Mesa last weekend, but did not have an opportunity to ask about the second course you are planning there.  What stage is the planning at right now, and where (in relation to the existing course) is the land for your course?

Thank you so much!

Cheers!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 07:46:38 PM »
Thomas:

I don't know what the status of the second course is.  We are hoping to do a lot of shaping work this fall when we have an open window, but I am sure the summer's play will have a say in determining how fast we move forward.

The course will start from a remote starters' shack out to the right of #13 tee on the first course, and work its way further out from there.  (It's an out-and-back 18 with a couple of crossovers, but the tenth green is the furthest from the clubhouse.)  The property is generally not as dramatic as the original course (more wide open, with bigger and broader washes in play), but the most dramatic parts are at the very far end.  I guess the view from the 16th tee will be pretty dramatic, too.

Thomas Patterson

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 08:23:38 PM »
Tom - Thank you for your time and explanation.  I will be interested to hear how this Fall goes for you (I hope very well).

I haven't spent a lot of time in New Mexico, and particularly, the Santa Fe area, until recently.  I fell in love with the landscape and region on our last trip.  The area that Black Mesa occupies is a pretty interesting track of land.  I did notice the openness you are referring to around that part of the course, and I think captured part of the area just right of the 13th tee in one of my pics (below).  I also felt that the existing course was built on a lot of elevation and that it almost "came out of nowhere", for lack of a better term; i.e. meaning that driving from Santa Fe to the course, the surrounding lands were relatively open, a lot flatter, and had arroyos/washes throughout.  Arriving at the course, it seems like it is built on a small mountain range...very contrasting landscapes. 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, and I can't wait to see what you create out there!

Cheers



Anthony Gray

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 08:27:59 PM »


  Tom,

  Is there a question you are dying to be asked?

  Anthony


Bill_McBride

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 08:39:03 PM »
Thomas:

I don't know what the status of the second course is.  We are hoping to do a lot of shaping work this fall when we have an open window, but I am sure the summer's play will have a say in determining how fast we move forward.

The course will start from a remote starters' shack out to the right of #13 tee on the first course, and work its way further out from there.  (It's an out-and-back 18 with a couple of crossovers, but the tenth green is the furthest from the clubhouse.)  The property is generally not as dramatic as the original course (more wide open, with bigger and broader washes in play), but the most dramatic parts are at the very far end.  I guess the view from the 16th tee will be pretty dramatic, too.

Tom, due to the elevation and some pretty severe climbs, I've never walked Baxter's Black Mesa course.  Do you think your course will be more walkable?

Anthony Gray

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2009, 08:54:19 PM »


  I would love to hear his thoughts on GCA.com.

  Anthony


Forrest Richardson

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 09:22:02 PM »
Enjoyed the read and, as usual, appreciate the time Ran invests in making sure we get to 'know' the modern day designers. Tom has been an amazing success, and proof that great work can lead to better and better work.

The interview reminds me of the tremendous resource that Tom holds — I have (softly) pushed for a few years that he consider becoming an ASGCA member for the very reason that he has so much to offer other architects. I really do believe that part of our art in this game is designers sharing our beliefs with each other about the game, courses and priorities. Courses are not all we leave behind, as Ran points out. In addition to writing, which is relatively easy to define and lay your hands on, there are many other bits and pieces being left behind by many of the greats in golf architecture. Tom obviously has a lot to offer.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 09:53:05 PM »
Tom Doak,

While skim reading this thread I thought this photo, taken by Tom Patterson, was of  the 13th hole at Black Mesa, not a view over the possible site of a second course. 



I spent a minute or two trying to find a fairway and a flag, couldn't, and decided to go to their website to see if there were some other photos. I did, and found that they have a good number of them, this one is the 13th.



Figuring that I was missing something I went back and read  the interview, and that leads me to ask this question: I love the 'color' that's shown in Tom Patterson's photo of the untouched area much more than the 'electric' green shown in the web shots. Is it possible for a course to blend in that well, or does it have to be so much more colorful?   
     

edit: I just saw Tom Patterson's thread about Black Mesa, and quite a few more photos of the place. It looks like the electric green of the website photos is an enhancement, but it's still pretty green.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:01:38 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 09:59:06 PM »
Jim, you are looking out into the undeveloped desert to the right of the 13th fairway in that first photo.  The dirt cart path makes a hard left past the ball washer.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2009, 10:07:38 PM »
Bill,
Thanks, I realized that when I went back and read, not just skimmed, the thread.

I still like the color better over there.  ;D   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2009, 10:19:49 PM »
This is a bit OT, but I was interested in Tom's answer to what Pacific meant to his career: "It meant we would get more chances to work on great ground.  But I think we had to “validate” its success with our projects in Australia and New Zealand before developers put us in the upper echelon of architects."  I was struck by how Tom seemed to expect (and accept) this validation process, how he seemed to take for granted, without much rancour, that it was a necessary (or at least, unavoidable) step in the career/ladder -- and this even though he had a lot of good courses under his belt by the time Pacific came around. And I can't help comparing that attitude of his to one I've seen (deeply held, if not expressed openly) many times over the years, to people I know (one very well) in other creative businesses.  The writer with his first published short-story collection, the film-maker with his first low-budget movie, the musician with his first independent release, the actor with his first paying gig  -- what they felt (if not expressed) was that, now, no further validation was necessary; what they hoped was that, now, everything would take care of itself; what they expected was that, now, clients would come knocking at their door; what they eventually got angry about was the idea/realization that this one piece of work, even if it was pretty good, didn't validate them at all.  Was it ego or idocy that held us (err...I mean, them) in its power? Whatever it was, it seems Tom has avoided its pratfalls. Man oh man, how many good things and good qualities have to come together it order for a career to flourish. Talent is just one of them....

Peter     

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2009, 11:26:26 PM »
Peter:

I was no different about expectations than anybody else while I was working on High Pointe; but by the time Pacific Dunes came around, I was a bit more grounded.

Bill M:

I actually DID walk and carry my bag when I played Black Mesa three years ago.  There are a couple of long transitions, but I didn't think the walk was too bad, other than climbing up to #16 tee.  But, I think we pay more attention to the transitions than a lot of architects do, so I hope the walk on the new course will be tighter.  The only long walk I can think of is the transition from 14 green to 16 tee, which has got to be almost 800 yards with a long golf hole somewhere in there.  And I am pretty sure there is not as much elevation change on our site as on the original course.

Ben Sims

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2009, 11:34:20 PM »
Tom,

Obviously I didn't make it to CG this weekend due to some VERY charasmatic members ;D

Great interview.  It was nice to read after 63 holes at Ballyneal this weekend.  I did have a question about #12.  Mat and I had a hypothesis that the later half of the big mound obscuring the view of the green on the left of the fairway was pushed up from the fairway and man made.  It's really the only piece of earthmoving that I thought was man made.  Either way, it was cool.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2009, 11:37:44 PM »
Ben:

There was very little earthwork on #12 at Ballyneal.  Eric Iverson did just a bit of work on the narrow shelf of the fairway just going by the two left-hand bunkers to help ensure that a few more drives would stay up top.  But we didn't push anything up or try to make anything blinder than it already was, everything we did there was going in the opposite direction.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Feature Interview with Tom Doak is now posted
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2009, 12:06:24 AM »
Tom, Not sure if there's any there there, but... The last two weeks have been unusual for rain fall around these parts. Just over a week ago 5 inches fell in just 90 minutes. (That's almost half the annual) But so far we are over 14 inches for two weeks. The course appears to have held up nicely and is still playing F&F considering. However, you may want to get a first hand account from Dave H. and make sure there aren't any drainage lessons to be learned. Even on 200 feet of sand there must be something interesting because I did notice a few drains that I had never seen before.

Congrats on the interview, well done!

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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