Possible Renovations to Poppy Hills

[Nick Church]

Monterey Herald reports:
http://www.montereyherald.com/golf/ci_12551312

I don't know that what is described is much of a renovation (moving up tees, etc).

My question is this --- are the "bones" or fundamentals of Poppy Hills sufficient that a more extensive redesign would be possible?  Does the land lend itself to a minimalist designer who could reveal a course no one realized existed beneath the current course? 

Admittedly, it's a fantasy question.  To think that Hanse, Doak, Coore, etc. would even have the chance is unrealistic, but I thought it was fun enough to speculate anyway.

[Tom Huckaby]

Those changes have been contemplated for quite a long time... of course it's topical to revisit them, but the point is they were discussed before the AT&T/PGA Tour screwing of our golf association.

But I have chimed in on that issue already.  I will just say that I agree 100% with what Mr. Hexner was quoted as saying in that article.

And regarding the Poppy changes contemplated, I think they would make for a net positive both for us peons and the pros.  The course gets more "fair" for the pros and perhaps play is speeded up... and for the rest of us, well we still get to play 10 as a par five (just play normal back tee) and the problematic 12 gets fixed.

As for "bones" and a total renovation, I don't see it as being needed or advisable.. what's there now is pretty damn good, whining pros notwithstanding.

TH

[Nick Church]

Fair enough.  I know an educated opinion when I see one.

[David_Tepper]

Nick -

Poppy Hills and its possible changes/renovations have been discussed here several times over the past 6-12 months. Here is a link to the most recent thread, from just a week or so ago:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39991.0/

DT

 

[Tom_Doak]

Someone asked me 12-18 months ago if we'd be interested in working on a redesign of Poppy Hills.

At the time, we were way too busy with other things.  Plus, I can only guess at how many restrictions would be placed on the design which would hamper meaningful change.

[Mike Benham]

Not sure how these changes improve play for the amateur golfer or association member.  Seems like the NCGA is making the changes for the PGA Tour when they return after the MPCC members withdraw their course after next year .

The description of #12 will have to change from "a straight-away par 4" to a "short driveable par-4" if they plan to relocated the tee "near the landing area of current drives".

And as Tom notes, I expect that any changes would be primarily cosmetic, without changing the routing and green complexes as the course would need to remain open for play.  The NCGA keeps the course pretty busy with association tournaments from April through October each year.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I think they were open to closing the course to make more dramatic renovations ... but I have no idea what they've settled on.  Maybe they realized that big changes would require years of permitting.

[Mike Benham]

Tom -

Interesting (in my view) that they would be open to closing the course for a renovation.

The NCGA contract with Spyglass has been renegotiated so that they have less use (days) of Spyglass then in years past, moving these tournaments to Poppy Hills. 

Having the course closed during a tournament season would suggest that they have the ability to move most of the tournament dates to Bayonet or Black Horse, and possible some to their sister course Poppy Ridge.

But one must ask the question, would these changes be made with the intent of improving the course for the members of the Association or to lure back the PGA Tour? 

Mike

[Pat Burke]

Those changes have been contemplated for quite a long time... of course it's topical to revisit them, but the point is they were discussed before the AT&T/PGA Tour screwing of our golf association.

But I have chimed in on that issue already.  I will just say that I agree 100% with what Mr. Hexner was quoted as saying in that article.

And regarding the Poppy changes contemplated, I think they would make for a net positive both for us peons and the pros.  The course gets more "fair" for the pros and perhaps play is speeded up... and for the rest of us, well we still get to play 10 as a par five (just play normal back tee) and the problematic 12 gets fixed.

As for "bones" and a total renovation, I don't see it as being needed or advisable.. what's there now is pretty damn good, whining pros notwithstanding.

TH

Damn!  Now I'm not wthstood?       I had the fortune to play the Crosby at CPC AND after the move.
Wouldn't say I was one of the whiners, but I definitely disliked the course.  Certainly hurt that the course had to replace
CPC, but when I played (first few years) Poppy's conditions were miserable (even with decent weather).  And personally,
I just never liked, the "feel" of so many shots.  Is it the worst course ever, nahh, but if I were still playing, I'd be excited about going to
MPCC.
I AM NOT in favor of any damage that could be done to NCGA though.  With the supposed "charity" being job one, I would hope the move would still entail some NCGA assistance, but I have no idea

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

Of course you get a lot of leeway with me.
 

And hell, obviously those forced from Cypress Point to Poppy Hills had every right to complain - that's like expecting to eat a Tommy's burger and getting Macdonalds instead.  Same goes for the move to MPCC - heck yeah the pros should be happy, so long as they only selfishly consider that they are getting a way better golf course (which the Shore is). The hope would be that more consider the damage done to the NCGA (and likely to MPCC itself) as you just did.

Anyway, my point was not to pick on whining pros - that was just too good NOT to include.   The point is more that Poppy Hills remains a pretty damn good course.  Obviously it's the weakest of it's neighbors... but those are some damn fine neighbors.  Bottom line is I just don't see the worth of a total re-do. 

TH

[Pat Burke]

Pat:

Of course you get a lot of leeway with me.
 

And hell, obviously those forced from Cypress Point to Poppy Hills had every right to complain - that's like expecting to eat a Tommy's burger and getting Macdonalds instead.  Same goes for the move to MPCC - heck yeah the pros should be happy, so long as they only selfishly consider that they are getting a way better golf course (which the Shore is). The hope would be that more consider the damage done to the NCGA (and likely to MPCC itself) as you just did.

Anyway, my point was not to pick on whining pros - that was just too good NOT to include.   The point is more that Poppy Hills remains a pretty damn good course.  Obviously it's the weakest of it's neighbors... but those are some damn fine neighbors.  Bottom line is I just don't see the worth of a total re-do. 

TH

At the risk of keeping this civil, there ARE a good number of whiners out there
And as far as neighbors go, my neighbors would be considered in the same vein as CPC and Pebble.  Guess that makes me Poppy!?
BUT, I would like to know the ways this move negatively impacts NCGA.  Sure many players have no idea (many will not care ), but it should be out there

[Joel_Stewart]

Here is the 10th hole which is one of the holes they are not happy with.  #11 is a very bland par 3.



If you look at what Gil Hanse did at TPC Boston and how he fixed up a very bland Arnold Palmer golf course I can imagine that somebody could do some real nice work at Poppy Hills.  The article mentions Kyle Phillips who use to work for Jones so maybe he has a good handle on the situation?

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat, seems like we are two peas in a pod re our neighbor status.
 

As for exactly how this negatively impacts my beloved NCGA, well... I am shooting from the hip far too much.  I had heard it has defined negative financial ramifications, but of course I am not privy to the details there.  But one thing it certainly does is ruin a lot of the "cache" for Poppy Hills... because love it or hate it, many Joe Q. Publics would pony up to play it because they could walk in the footsteps of the greats like yourself.     Seriously, if this is a one-year thing, then fine, the course and the NCGA will survive.  But if it is indeed permanent, well... that's not good for the NCGA coffers as play likely would decrease (especially the top-dollar kind from non-NCGA members).  And that's just looking at it from a financial side.. the emotional slap in the face ain't exactly nice either.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

The pros will enjoy the Shore course at MPCC.  I hope the wind blows like crazy for them.  If I was a member, I would be mortified.  There is nothing wrong with having one round at the more proletariat Poppy Hills.   The new Bayonet course would probably work as well.  As to changing Poppy Hills, unless they want to blow it up and start all over, mostly work on playability, drainage, and conditioning.  It is a decent course as is.

[Mike Jansen]

The NCGA's reaction to this situation reminds me of a man/ woman getting dumped, taking it very hard, and then trying to improve to win them back.  It is highly doubtful that the PGA will return, and definitely not after the changes mentioned.  I cannot see the the Tour interested in a par 70 unless its the US Open.  However, the flattening of the right side of #1 would be a great idea for everday play.

I also don't think that the course will suffer too bad financially either.  Those that have played it (and love it) will continue to come back, NCGA rates are still a great deal for a course in its location and its condition, but will now bel a course the PGA "used" to play at.  I'm sure there are tons of courses that have that title that do just fine with it.

[Adam Clayman]

The NCGA is a top notch association. Without them, I'd never have graduated Golf Bum U.

As for the course losing the PGA... It's a pity the boys in Ponte Verde don't recognize the importance the association plays in their revenue stream. Otherwise, they would act sensibly, and not throw them under the bus. However, MPCC is a good neighbor and could likely use some of that revenue stream for a few years. If it all leads to intelligent changes to Poppy Hills, all golfers will be better off, whether the tour recognizes it, or not.  Me thinks there's enough examples of the intelligent stuff out there, where doing something with a reasonable budget, perhaps in-house?, could be conceived. Recalling some of the big time players in that area, unless they have spent some time soul searching, I doubt it.

GCA wise... The course plays in sequences. 3,4,5, likely my favorite stretch, complimented with 7 & 8, lending to somewhat  of a feeling of intimacy. Especially so, for a tree corridor ridden parkland moderne. But, all the sequences each have their own Mojo's.

Flattening the right side of #1 would be a shame. The entire hole would be emasculated.