[Rob Rigg]

Final hijack to discuss Tetherow -

Garland,

I asked the head pro what he thought the walking distance was and he said 7 to 7.5 miles.

I asked him if he had used one of the Nike (or other brand) distance measurement devices and he said they had not. I will be returning to the area in August (yes, the boss prefers Bend to Walla Walla for some reason) - and I will walk the course to get precise distance.

I will, ahem, of course be doing the same thing at WV (see, this post is totally on topic).

Garland - Juniper has better terrain than Tetherow? Please elaborate in a non-thread hi-jacking way. I enjoyed Juniper but I thought Harbottle made the most of the land available. Kidd has 700 acres of terrain with a lot of elevation change, Harbottle had a good piece of land and routed a course fairly tightly through it as was required.

Now, time to start the write ups.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I asked the head pro what he thought the walking distance was and he said 7 to 7.5 miles.
...

They told me 9 miles. My estimate from walking 6 to 6.5 miles. CB right around 5 miles.

 Juniper has better terrain than Tetherow? Please elaborate in a non-thread hi-jacking way....

There are hills in the middle of a hole, At the beginning of a hole. At the end of a hole. Through the length of a hole. Tetherow has most of this except for the use of hills in the middle of a hole as I recall. Examples, first par 5 on front nine. The rock hill on the par 4 preceeding it. Driving through the shute between hills on a par 4 on the back.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Jordan,

We've now added Juniper to the discussion.
 

[Rob Rigg]

Garland,

I do not think Juniper has better terrain - I think Harbottle did what most architects are not ballsy enough to do and that is let the land speak for itself. Juniper reminded me of a few courses in Ireland that I played. There is no bulldozing mounds for the sake of doing so - just route the hole over the land and see what happens.

Based on all the terrain changes and mounding at Tetherow I do not doubt that Kidd could have done the same if he had wanted. Not that there is a lack of movement in the land at Tetherow, it is just not as natural.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I do not think Juniper has better terrain - I think Harbottle did what most architects are not ballsy enough to do and that is let the land speak for itself. Juniper reminded me of a few courses in Ireland that I played. There is no bulldozing mounds for the sake of doing so - just route the hole over the land and see what happens.

Based on all the terrain changes and mounding at Tetherow I do not doubt that Kidd could have done the same if he had wanted. Not that there is a lack of movement in the land at Tetherow, it is just not as natural.

Better terrain, use the terrain better. Pretty much the same difference. I'm glad you agree Harbottle did a better job at Juniper than Kidd did at Tetherow.

[Rob Rigg]

Garland,

I think an architect should be given credit for maximizing the use of the terrain he is given. Harbottle, IMO, did that at Juniper and I think Hixson may have done the same at WV (strictly based on photos).

Kidd created some very very dramatic holes at Tetherow, some of which have been toned down. I think he made very good use of the land, but he had 700 acres to choose from while Harbottle had about 100 and something at Juniper.

I think Tetherow and Juniper are two very different types of courses. Juniper is a great walk on a smaller piece of property while Tetherow is 4 or 5 different sections of holes set across a wide area with big corridors and tons of movement.

Tetherow is a really tough course that I would probably steer anyone north of an 18 (arbitrary number) away from while Juniper can be enjoyed by everyone (including my wife which is great).

Apples and Oranges.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Tetherow is a really tough course that I would probably steer anyone north of an 18 (arbitrary number) away from while Juniper can be enjoyed by everyone (including my wife which is great).
...

Just the opposite Rob. Tetherow is wider and thereby easier for the less than accurate. I suppose short and accurate may get around Juniper easier. So I guess the wives play Juniper and the dudes play Tetherow. Which brings up the question, where do the cougars hang out?

[Rob Rigg]

Your ball rolls at Juniper, but not like it does on the fescue at Tetherow. The width of the fairways is deceiving because you always need to try and place it on the "right" side of the fairway and if you draw or fade your ball too much you will be in a ton of trouble. Much easier to find drives just off the fairway at Juniper than at Tetherow.

I think the cougars are hanging out at Pronghorn - or maybe those are the well funded leopards - that's right, the cougars hang out at Sunriver . . . ALL summer.

[Garland Bayley]

...Much easier to find drives just off the fairway at Juniper than at Tetherow.
...

Just off the fairway at Juniper they hit lava rock and are just gone.

Seriously. I was able to score much better at Tetherow than at Juniper. I had more effective width to manuever in.

[Pete_Pittock]

Time for Jonathan to retitle this thread

[Rob Rigg]

Umm, okay, to each his own I guess. You can find your ball in the lava rock, if you are in the long grass or hedges, bushes, etc. at Tetherow you need magical powers to track down your errant golf ball.

Per the slope rating, I thought Juniper was a much easier course - both off the tee and on the greens. Guess who drove 12 - oh snap! Oh, everybody, darn it.

[Garland Bayley]

Time for Jonathan to retitle this thread

Either that, or finally come clean about why he thinks Wine Valley is better than Chambers Bay. And, we don't want any because a Youngscap associate thought so garbage either.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt

WV - 8.5
Chambers - 8
Theterow - 7

Chambers plusses are the views, lay of land, fun ground game.  Negatives are: fruity land plan requiring bussing to first tee, difficult walk, conditioning and some stuck-in-the-corner routing issues (holes 8 and 9).

Theterow's plusses include good conditioning, texture, high interest and good shot values.  Negatives include: too busy (they have softened the course once and are planning more softening changes), surprisingly few run-up alleys and a weak finishing hole.

WV plusses are lay of the land, fun, good walking course, tremendously varied green complexes abd out-of-this-world bunkering.  Negative includes routing of course to include irragation(?) ponds on holes 3 and 9.

That's my take.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

8.5 my ass.  There is no such thing on the Doak scale. 

Either you give the course a 9 -- and risk the catcalls that you've put it even with Prairie Dunes and Oakmont -- or you give it an 8 and then it's pretty much even with Chambers Bay by your own admission.

[Richard Choi]

Seriously? Bussing to the 1st tee is a negative? Seriously?

What the hell do you rate Pacific Dunes then?

I am afraid that many people are too hung up on conditioning (which is rapidly improving) to give Chambers Bay a fair evaluation.

[Lou_Duran]

JC,

You should have known that in this forum, the Doak scale is the gold standard.

For my edification, how do you view Aldarra and Sahalee relative to the three you noted below (GW scale is fine with me, sorry Tom).  Any opinion on the Home Course?

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Jonathan, can't comment on CB and WV -- but Tetherow's finishing hole is more than what you say. It provides an opportunity to get back a few shots from what you have lost. Keep in mind this -- the green contours at Tetherow are quite demanding and you need to have a solid approach dimension to your game time after time, shot after shot.

Jonathan, you wax on about bunkers at WV -- is it more about their overall form because you're very soft on the details tied to their strategic positioning.

Also, why are ponds held out as some sort of evil inclusion -- might it be that their involvement is nothing more than water retention and the like and don't need to be held against a layout that provides so much solid opportunities.

[Sean Leary]

Seriously? Bussing to the 1st tee is a negative? Seriously?

What the hell do you rate Pacific Dunes then?

I am afraid that many people are too hung up on conditioning (which is rapidly improving) to give Chambers Bay a fair evaluation.

Conditioning is relative to peoples expectations. Talk to  almost any serious golfer who is not a GCAer and they will say the conditions at CB are horrible, even now as they have improved. Locally, the course is getting a bad reputation as a rip off due to the conditions, justified or not.

[Garland Bayley]

Seriously? Bussing to the 1st tee is a negative? Seriously?

What the hell do you rate Pacific Dunes then?

I am afraid that many people are too hung up on conditioning (which is rapidly improving) to give Chambers Bay a fair evaluation.

Conditioning is relative to peoples expectations. Talk to  almost any serious golfer who is not a GCAer and they will say the conditions at CB are horrible, even now as they have improved. Locally, the course is getting a bad reputation as a rip off due to the conditions, justified or not.

I see. It seems they needed to put in some gratuitous ponds so people can think it is pretty like they did at Tetherow. The interesting this is that Chambers Bay is located near a geography that has lots of small lakes, but yet has no ponds while Tetherow is located in a geography that has no lakes or ponds, but yet Tetherow has them.

[Mike Wagner]

JC,

Your negatives dont' make much sense to me.  I think - and feel free to comment - you might have (I'll admit to having this at different points in my life) - "new coursegasm"....(did I just coin that as  I wrote?)

Your negatives in comparing WV to CB are:

1.  Fruity land plan requiring bus ride to 1st tee (see Richard's comment) - my guess is your mind will change over time.
2.  Difficult walk.  There's some hills, but c'mon.....I can see it being difficult for some, but it's part of what makes it great - some very cool elevation changes that actually ADD to the course.
3.  Conditioning.....people....can we please see past conditioning when looking at the architectural values of a newer golf course??  It's important, but not when comparing new courses.  I find the fairways to be outstanding - firm/fast...the greens aren't perfect....but please....if you're worrying about the green speeds with all the challenges/options out there - I think you're missing a wonderful experience.
4.  "Stuck in a corner" routing - IT HAS TO END SOMEWHERE, doesn't it?  I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense.  The 8th hole has grown on me  - I think it's a great hole.  Think about it.....miss it right....deadsville!  Ton of room up the left, but you might get stuck.  All the while, lots of fairway, and a very receptive green.  Makes you think for a straight hole.
#9 - play it from at least 200 yds. and it's a great hole.  I don't see why this par 3 takes so much heat on here - where's the downside?

I haven't played WV yet, but based on what you say, I can't wait to get there...

[Sean Leary]

JC,

Your negatives dont' make much sense to me.  I think - and feel free to comment - you might have (I'll admit to having this at different points in my life) - "new coursegasm"....(did I just coin that as  I wrote?)

Your negatives in comparing WV to CB are:

1.  Fruity land plan requiring bus ride to 1st tee (see Richard's comment) - my guess is your mind will change over time.
2.  Difficult walk.  There's some hills, but c'mon.....I can see it being difficult for some, but it's part of what makes it great - some very cool elevation changes that actually ADD to the course.
3.  Conditioning.....people....can we please see past conditioning when looking at the architectural values of a newer golf course??  It's important, but not when comparing new courses.  I find the fairways to be outstanding - firm/fast...the greens aren't perfect....but please....if you're worrying about the green speeds with all the challenges/options out there - I think you're missing a wonderful experience.
4.  "Stuck in a corner" routing - IT HAS TO END SOMEWHERE, doesn't it?  I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense.  The 8th hole has grown on me  - I think it's a great hole.  Think about it.....miss it right....deadsville!  Ton of room up the left, but you might get stuck.  All the while, lots of fairway, and a very receptive green.  Makes you think for a straight hole.
#9 - play it from at least 200 yds. and it's a great hole.  I don't see why this par 3 takes so much heat on here - where's the downside?

I haven't played WV yet, but based on what you say, I can't wait to get there...

Mike,

Just curious, what do your buddies from Inglewood think about the conditions at CB?

I agree with you on 8, disagree on 9. I just don't think they had to go up there for eitherwith all the land they had. I have felt that that was done to create a view to sell, but that is just my opinion.

[Richard Choi]

I have to agree with Sean.

#8 has definitely gotten better and better with every round that I have played. It is such a benign hole when you first play it because it has no bunkers and the fairway width is pretty constant through out. But it is one of the most punishing holes at Chambers Bay. the ridge that run the entire length of the fairway will push indifferent shots to the right where you may or may not have a good lie/stance. If you miss left, you may end up with a terrible lie while going deep right is dead.  The left mound guarding the green is devilish as it repels many long approach shots unless you properly plan the angle.  I really like the hole.

#9 on the otherhand, has never gotten better. It is still out of place in character with the rest of the course and it is a mediocre hole at best.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I agree with you on 8, disagree on 9. I just don't think they had to go up there for eitherwith all the land they had. I have felt that that was done to create a view to sell, but that is just my opinion.

So 8 is good, but 9 is bad, because 8 lead to it?

Views on golf courses are good, except when they were done on purpose?

There are lots of unusual opinions about #9 at Chambers Bay.

A person who is happy to hit an approach shot to a blind green doesn't like #9 because he can't tell how far the wind will move the ball off target.

A person who is happy to play with wind making it hard to judge the distance doesn't like #9 because it's hard to judge the distance when the ball has that far to drop.

Face it folks, #9 is so good it scares you how good it is.

[Anthony Gray]

...
I agree with you on 8, disagree on 9. I just don't think they had to go up there for eitherwith all the land they had. I have felt that that was done to create a view to sell, but that is just my opinion.

So 8 is good, but 9 is bad, because 8 lead to it?

Views on golf courses are good, except when they were done on purpose?

There are lots of unusual opinions about #9 at Chambers Bay.

A person who is happy to hit an approach shot to a blind green doesn't like #9 because he can't tell how far the wind will move the ball off target.

A person who is happy to play with wind making it hard to judge the distance doesn't like #9 because it's hard to judge the distance when the ball has that far to drop.

Face it folks, #9 is so good it scares you how good it is.

  Garland,

  If CB is so great then play it.

  Anthony

[Sean Leary]

...
I agree with you on 8, disagree on 9. I just don't think they had to go up there for eitherwith all the land they had. I have felt that that was done to create a view to sell, but that is just my opinion.

So 8 is good, but 9 is bad, because 8 lead to it?

Views on golf courses are good, except when they were done on purpose?

There are lots of unusual opinions about #9 at Chambers Bay.

A person who is happy to hit an approach shot to a blind green doesn't like #9 because he can't tell how far the wind will move the ball off target.

A person who is happy to play with wind making it hard to judge the distance doesn't like #9 because it's hard to judge the distance when the ball has that far to drop.

Face it folks, #9 is so good it scares you how good it is.

Hey Garland,

I just meant that as a hole, 8 has grown on me, that is all. I just wish they never went up there at all. Obviously, all the holes lead to one another not going up there would have lead to changes, but they created every hole anyway.

9 sucks.

As I have stated before, my biggest complaint with the course is that there are too many sideboards and backboards for my liking, and 9 is included in that. That being said, it is the best course in the state. Obviously I need to get out to Wine Valley.

Doak's Tumble Creek held up pretty well in the US Open qualifier this week as a test for good players. Out there, it is all dependent on wind. I have played a number of Doak's best courses, and number 4 is my favorite par 5 of his, and 11 is my favorite par 3. Hopefully more people will get out to see it. Talk about perfect conditions, wow.

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