[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

I asked this before -- you seemed to either not see it or skipped it -- but you need to flush out your statements on WHY WV is better than CB and Tetherow. I liked Tetherow a good bit -- although I think it's patently inane that someone on this thread must really enjoy the kool-aid they are sipping if they remotely believe Links of ND is better than it.

Look forward to the details you can provide.

Give me also a Doak # for WV and what other public courses you have played that WV is equivalent to ?

Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Matt,

Did you golf Tetherow, or did you cart golf it?

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I played Tetherow in late August of last year -- walked much of the course and rode a few of the holes.

Happy to hear from Rob that certain dimensions were "toned down" and would like to know more about that when he posts again.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

Care to constrast the walking of Tetherow (stated as a 9 mile walk by the pro shop) to the walking of the Links of ND?

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I walked both courses with ease ... try focusing a bit more attention on the actual nature of the design elements, e.g., the land, routing, various shots required -- such as shaping drives, approaches and the dexterity needed around the putting surfaces.

Not even close ...

p.s. I like Links of ND but I'll share with you this -- if you want to see a better overall layout near to the Ray, ND course -- head to Medora and play Bully Pulpit .. or go to Rapid City, SD and play GC at Red Rock.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Going by the plan on their website for real estate I would plat this place soon as it is going to end up in a right mess.

http://winevalleygolfclub.com/wine-valley-golf-club_master-plan

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

I walked both courses with ease ... try focusing a bit more attention on the actual nature of the design elements, e.g., the land, routing, various shots required -- such as shaping drives, approaches and the dexterity needed around the putting surfaces.

Not even close ...

p.s. I like Links of ND but I'll share with you this -- if you want to see a better overall layout near to the Ray, ND course -- head to Medora and play Bully Pulpit .. or go to Rapid City, SD and play GC at Red Rock.

I agree! Not even close. The Links of ND has much better land and routing than Tetherow. As for shaping shots, that is beyond my skill and I won't evaluate. The putting surfaces at Tetherow have been criticized for being too tricked up, although I will say I had no problem with them. And let's not forget the ill-advised, out-of-place ponds at Tetherow.

You can try to send me to where ever to compare to the Links of ND, but your suggestions don't hold much merit. Your earlier suggestion of Eastmoreland was laughable and inaccurate. You heavily promoted the Hideout in Monticello, UT, only to have it come up well short. You can search up the comparison thread if you are interested, but I doubt you are.

[Michael Dugger]

Going by the plan on their website for real estate I would plat this place soon as it is going to end up in a right mess.

http://winevalleygolfclub.com/wine-valley-golf-club_master-plan

Why would you think this? 
Somehow Pronghorn still gets rave reviews and there are houses on that golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

You're joking -- better land and routing. Please help me from rolling over with sustained laughter. Links of ND is a fine layout -- but gets too much mileage from the "remote" buzz. The layouts really only starts with the par-5 7th. The first six holes are simply pedestrian stuff. Since you don't care to look beyond your preferences -- you will miss out on what Bully Pulpit and Red Rock clearly provide.

You're right -- if you want a course that can cater to the 25+ handicap set -- the by all means knock yourself out with Links of ND. Tetherow is for people with game in their tank. Plenty of strategic options and for those who understand their own limitations on the course you can play from tee boxes that challenge you without overwhelming you. Of course -- since you don't seem to value shapiing of shots I guess one must falls back upon the touchy feely approach to course assessment.

The putting surfaces at Tetherow are no more demanding than what you see at Oakmont, WF/W, OH/S, and other courses of this type. You mention the "ill-advised, out-of-place ponds at Tetherow." I love the throw-away line without anything but surface level bellyaching. Try to keep this in mind RCD has a pond on its 17th hole and doesn't suffer at all in terms of its standing -- in fact, the ponds at Tetherow have more connection to the shotmaking dimensions than what you see with the famed North Ireland layout.

Of course my suggestions "don't hold much merit" -- they only apply to people who can play the game to a modicum of golf skill. Please refresh my memory on Eastmoreland because others have long mentioned its uniqueness among long time muni's. In regards to The Hideout -- check out it's position on the Digest ratings for top public courses. I guess they must be wrong too. Unfortunately, The Hideout suffers because too many people on this site chase and cherry pick courses with "name" designers. Forrest Richardson did a stellar job on a very limited budget. Garland, my late father hasd a wonderful expression ... "You can work with ignorance -- you just can't help stupidity."

Garland, please feel free to lob more of your predictable shoot from the hip retorts. They are indeed rich with comedy.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Garland Bayley

I suppose playing in the middle of a housing estate just doesn't do it for me.  It just looks like a very nice peice of land that I don't think a few hundred villas would improve.  

Just down to personal preference.

[Michael Dugger]

yer an ass, Ward.

Garland never said he does not value the "shaping of shots."  He said it's something outside of his game and thus not a topic he can comment on.

I'm curious why you mentioned earlier on this thread that you are excited to hear about the "changes" or "softening" at Tetherow, yet a few months back you talked a bunch of *&%# towards those of us who thought the eyebrows were a little over the top?

Which is it? 

I really and truly could do without reading anymore of your golf takes.  Even if there is a little bit of substance to them from time to time, you come across as such a jackass it's hard to really care. 

You see, all you've done here is insult lesser players, which seems to indicate you have a clear bias.  Golf is for good players, and golf courses should be designed to cater to those types.

Eastmoreland unique?  HAHAHAHAHHAAHHHhhhhaaaaaa.  Shush up.

[Garland Bayley]

... In regards to The Hideout -- check out it's position on the Digest ratings for top public courses. I guess they must be wrong too. Unfortunately, The Hideout suffers because too many people on this site chase and cherry pick courses with "name" designers. Forrest Richardson did a stellar job on a very limited budget. Garland, my late father hasd a wonderful expression ... "You can work with ignorance -- you just can't help stupidity."

Garland, please feel free to lob more of your predictable shoot from the hip retorts. They are indeed rich with comedy.

Perhaps you can point me to the "Digest ratings for top public courses." I'm pretty sure they will have the Links of ND above Hideout. Here is what I found on the Golf Digest web site. By state The Links of ND is #2 in ND, The Hideout doesn't appear in the top 10 for Utah. The Links of ND appeared on the best new public in 1996, but The Hideout never appeared in any best new public list from Golf Digest.

Since you profess knowledge of Golf Digest rankings, I guess that rules out ignorance in your case.

1. Hawktree G.C., Bismarck, 888-465-4295, hawktree.com*
2. The Links of North Dakota Ray, 866-733-6453, thelinksofnorthdakota.com*
3. Bully Pulpit G. Cse., Medora*
4. Oxbow G. & C.C. Hickson
5. Minot C.C., 701-839-6169, minotcountryclub.com*

1. Glenwild G.C., Park City
2. Tuhaye G.C., Kamas
3. Promontory, The Ranch Club (Dye Canyon) Park City, 435-333-4010, promontoryclub.com*
4. Entrada at Snow Canyon G.C., St. George, 435-674-7500, golfentrada.com*
5. The G.C. at Thanksgiving Point , Lehi, 801-768-7401, thanksgivingpoint.com*
6. Willow Creek C.C., Sandy
7. Coral Canyon G. Cse., Washington 435-688-1700, coralcanyongolf.com*
8. The Country Club, Salt Lake City
9. Hidden Valley C.C. (Lakes/Valley), Sandy
10. Soldier Hollow G. Cse. (Gold), Midway*

1996 (appeared in the Dec., 1996 issue)
    Best New Affordable Public Courses
    1. PGA G.C. at The Reserve (South Cse.), Port St. Lucie, Fla., Tom Fazio. (Now Wanamaker Cse.)
    2. The Links at North Dakota at Red Mike Resort, Ray, N.D., Stephen Kay.

EDIT. Also, please note that Golf Digest rates The Links of ND above Bully Pulpit which you have been claiming is the better of the two.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

My mistake ... people do make them -- so I stand corrected on the exact publication.

I meant to say Golfweek -- you will note The Hideout is rated #5 in a state that dwarfs the total amt of regulation public courses ND has. Ditto from the standpoint of overall state ratings since the Utah area has more on that front as well.

I also stand by Bully Pulpit and GC of Red Rock for what they both offer. If you have not played either of them -- then your criticism of my recommendations is quite premature. Do yourself a favor and read the reviews Ron Whitten provided on all of the courses in question? Again, you need to explain to me how my assessment of The Hideout is so out of balance. I'd be curious to know if you have played the layout personally. Forrest Richardson did a stellar job with a very limited budget in an area of the country where the effective growing season and playing time is rather limited.

What's quite laughable is that Digest does have Links of ND BEHIND the likes of Black Mesa in their overall top 100 public. That's quite amusing to say the least. I like the Ray, ND course for what it does provide -- especially when you reach the par-5 7th. But the first third of the layout is quite pedestrian and when held against the likes of what Kidd has done at Tetherow is quite apparent to me. If you feel otherwise, so be it.

Michael:

Nothing like street talk huh ?

Garland said the following, "As for shaping shots, that is beyond my skill and I won't evaluate." Well geeze, what is one to do when talking about golf courses -- shots and the wherewithal to envision what it takes to play a golf course -- is something of critical importance. Oh, I get it -- let's just talk about ponds on the course. Now I get it.

I'm curious to hear about the changes made at Tetherow because I have no clue on what was done there. I don't see the eyebrows on the bunkers being excessive -- it seems Michael that some people will accept such an inclusion for certain courses across the pond but when it's done in the States it becomes over-the-top. Kidd did very well there -- the course is tough no doubt but if people play the appropriate tee box for their level of play it's more than fair. Try to stay with the program on what people actually said as opposed to what you erroneously bark about.

If you don't like what I write -- simple thing -- don't respond to it. I responded in great detail to what Garland and others have posted. I would appreciate people doing likewise instead of throwing forward the verbal and empty retorts that my comments are all wet and the like. In regards to Eastmoreland -- there have been others on this site who have saluted what it provides from a muni standpoint. I'm not rating it to the equivalence of Bethpage Black but it's far from a dogtrack.

Last item Michael -- I've always valued the elasticity dimension of golf courses and have said so -- many times. Instead of you bitching and moaning try to read abit more closely on what I do write. I am not a fan of courses that don't provide alternate avenues of attack but in reviewing such courses it does take an awareness level of the types of shots a course demands and how such shot shaping is accentuated by the design elements that are included.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

FYI ...

One additional item -- Golfweek also has The Hideout as the 23rd best muni course in the USA.

Not bad given the competition that finished ahead of it. I will also say this -- the fees charged at the Monticello, UT layout have got to be the most affordable when weighed against the competition that finished ahead of it.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

My mistake ... people do make them -- so I stand corrected on the exact publication.

I meant to say Golfweek -- you will note The Hideout is rated #5 in a state that dwarfs the total amt of regulation public courses ND has. Ditto from the standpoint of overall state ratings since the Utah area has more on that front as well.

From Golfweek top 100 modern.
90.       Links of North Dakota 6.79
(79; d) Ray, N.D.
1995, Stephen Kay
Please note that Hideout does not even make the list.
You have now claimed knowledge of two lists, but have been wrong in both cases. Remember what your father said.

I also stand by Bully Pulpit and GC of Red Rock for what they both offer. If you have not played either of them -- then your criticism of my recommendations is quite premature.

As you should well know, I have played Bully Pulpit as we have discussed it here before.

Do yourself a favor and read the reviews Ron Whitten provided on all of the courses in question? Again, you need to explain to me how my assessment of The Hideout is so out of balance. I'd be curious to know if you have played the layout personally. Forrest Richardson did a stellar job with a very limited budget in an area of the country where the effective growing season and playing time is rather limited.

I did a hole by hole assessment on this website comparing The Links of ND to The Hideout that you have seen, and that I referenced in my earlier post.

What's quite laughable is that Digest does have Links of ND BEHIND the likes of Black Mesa in their overall top 100 public. That's quite amusing to say the least. I like the Ray, ND course for what it does provide -- especially when you reach the par-5 7th. But the first third of the layout is quite pedestrian and when held against the likes of what Kidd has done at Tetherow is quite apparent to me. If you feel otherwise, so be it.

Your comment about Links of ND being BEHIND Black Mesa is a bit puzzling since you are Black Mesa's number one cheerleader. I think you must be having an off day (like every other day) as you must have meant ahead of since that's where it really stands.

BTW, I can grow tall grass in my yard too. But that does not make it a golf course of note.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

FYI ...

One additional item -- Golfweek also has The Hideout as the 23rd best muni course in the USA.

Not bad given the competition that finished ahead of it. I will also say this -- the fees charged at the Monticello, UT layout have got to be the most affordable when weighed against the competition that finished ahead of it.

That's MUNI Matt. The Links of ND is not a MUNI. Check my post above for the true relative ranking of both.

[Craig Sweet]

Garland...regarding your inability to "shape shots"....I say nonsense!  When I played with you last spring you were shaping shots left and right.   

[Garland Bayley]

Garland...regarding your inability to "shape shots"....I say nonsense!  When I played with you last spring you were shaping shots left and right.   

Yes, I'm a slooker. When I address the ball, I don't know whether I am going to slice or hook.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

The issue is the overall standing of The Hideout. Rated 5th in UT public golf by Golfweek.

Keep this in mind -- UT is a much more competitive state to get a rating than ND. That's based on the sheer number of total courses and the level of competition that exists in the Beehive State versus that of ND. ND has far less on both fronts -- both public and private regulation courses.

Try to refresh my memory -- have you played Red Rock in Rapid City, SD ? Or The Hideout itself ?

I stated the muni ratings to demonstrate that The Hideout is not some sort of after thought in terms of quality architecture. And to be rated #23 and to offer the fees it does say plenty to me about the dual dimensions of course quality and easy access to the masses

Links of ND is a fine layout -- remoteness helps considerably -- for it to be ahead of Black Mesa is truly amazing by Digest and its esteemed raters.

Let me point out LND architect Stephen Kay did an ever better job for a layout in Lagrangeville, NY called The Links at Unionvale. Gets little mention because it's swallowed up in the metro NYC area -- but place it in ND and it would be ahead of both Links of ND and Hawktree in my mind.

Location matters and so does the level of competition that courses face.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

The issue is the overall standing of The Hideout. Rated 5th in UT public golf by Golfweek.

Keep this in mind -- UT is a much more competitive state to get a rating than ND. That's based on the sheer number of total courses and the level of competition that exists in the Beehive State versus that of ND. ND has far less on both fronts -- both public and private regulation courses.

Try to refresh my memory -- have you played Red Rock in Rapid City, SD ? Or The Hideout itself ?

I stated the muni ratings to demonstrate that The Hideout is not some sort of after thought in terms of quality architecture. And to be rated #23 and to offer the fees it does say plenty to me about the dual dimensions of course quality and easy access to the masses

Links of ND is a fine layout -- remoteness helps considerably -- for it to be ahead of Black Mesa is truly amazing by Digest and its esteemed raters.

Let me point out LND architect Stephen Kay did an ever better job for a layout in Lagrangeville, NY called The Links at Unionvale. Gets little mention because it's swallowed up in the metro NYC area -- but place it in ND and it would be ahead of both Links of ND and Hawktree in my mind.

Location matters and so does the level of competition that courses face.

OK Matt, it's clear you don't read anything written here, so I'm over and out and off to hassle Ben Sims.

[Jordan Wall]

Why did this thread go from discussing the merits of Wine Valley to a competition of rankings and values of other courses, totally unrelated to the original intent of this thread?

I understand Jonathan has played a good share of golf courses so when he expresses WV is better than Chambers I find that quite interesting.  Who else has played both?

[Pete_Pittock]

Jordan,
   I have played both, Wine Valley on a convoluted return from the KP and Chambers Bay twice (once on mats). No TKO in either direction. My unofficial estimation has them both at Doak 7.5 - 8.0.
   At Wine Valley Hixson was blessed by a great site and great soils and very good golf oriented ownership. It was a joy to play, for me a decent amount of challenge. Get a windy day or play from the tips and it is a bear (I think the early course record by the pros is 76).
Good shaping, the greens at first view don't appear especially challenging with excessive shaping, but a close inspection reveals that they are very complex, but subtle with no hint of vanilla. Fairway bunkering is excellent in appearance and positioning. Fairways are wide
but positioning for the approach narrows your target. If I remember right, there are fewer trees here than at Chambers Bay. Any negatives are buried too deep to remember. Oh yes, they don't carry Oregon pinot noir.
   Chambers Bay- Well documented. Great views, difficult site, poor soils. Good work, still coming into maturity. Has the severity, both in topography and wind to be an extremely difficult course. My negative is too many sideboards at the greens.
   At this stage of my career I would probably play WV 8-2. Of course a two day outing to WV is equivalent to a day trip to CB.
Personally I would rate WV ahead by a whisker, but assume CB will end up higher on a cumulative list because it is higher on the radar.
Disclaimers - Hdcp 12, my tach redlines around 6400-6500 for fun golf.  I am trying to talk my group into a weekend at WV, not so at CB.
     

[Rob Rigg]

Garland,

I can't believe this darn trip to Bandon (aka - trip to walking golf mecca) is getting in the way of WV. I am under the thumb of the ball and chain and cannot get out (except for a quick Bandon excursion) . . .

Matt,

I should have a full photo tour of Tetherow linked by the end of the week.

Some of the changes I understood but I think they went too far with #16 and I actually liked the craziness first time around.

Tetherow is easily one of the hardest courses to score on that I have ever played (note - I have not played a thousand courses). It takes two very good shots and two good putts for a par (on par 4s naturally). You have to remain focused for the entire round, there is little respite (hole 10 - the par 3.5 is definitely one, with 14 and 18 the others). Every hole is different and I think it is a fantastic golfing challenge, especially for the "better" player. Sidenote - Tetherow is rather logically easier to walk when it is 70 degree instead of 100. Not easy as there is a decent amount of elevation change and some long green to tee transfers. Estimated distance is 7 to 7.5 miles which is inline with CB.

It will be an interesting comparison to put WV/CB and Tetherow side by side by side. CB was definitely easier to score on than Tetherow and more forgiving (hail the linksland!). If you start messing around in the waste areas you can really hurt yourself, but overall I thought it was a fair, interesting and enjoyable challenge.

With WV getting major props from the treehouse, and looking great in the photos, it will be interesting to compare the level of difficulty, enjoyment and walkability (of course) to the other two courses.

Pete,

Thanks for more info on the Kidd project at Gamble Resort in Brewster. Apparently Perry Dye (?) is doing the "resort" course if they both end up happening. Tetherow was an OB project as well, at least initially, I wonder what the funding situation is there . . . The new golf course ownership at Tetherow is very well funded which is good to hear - it would be a shame to see anything happen to that layout, especially since Wicked Pony is on permanent hold and Pronghorn is on the blocks.

Sidenote - Juniper is doing a lot of business and is a wonderful track in Redmond by Harbottle just in case anyone is passing through town and looking for a more "affordable" eighteen than Crosswater, Nicklaus at Pronghorn or Tetherow.

[Pete_Pittock]

Now back to the thread about Wine Valley maybe being the best course in Washington. Enough hijacking.

[Garland Bayley]

...Tetherow is rather logically easier to walk when it is 70 degree instead of 100. Not easy as there is a decent amount of elevation change and some long green to tee transfers. Estimated distance is 7 to 7.5 miles which is inline with CB....

There is no way that walking distance on CB is close to walking distance on Tetherow. Also there is no way the distance is 7 to 7.5 miles.

Also, Juniper has better terrain than Tetherow.

Jordan,

This thread got into Tetherow when Jonathan added it to the discussion after playing it.
IMO Tetherow is not even close to Chambers Bay. I will be beating Kalen at Wine Valley this summer and then I can report on it too.

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